Sony The Last of Us Part II OT - Best Served Cold, update: the story behind the game's realistic facial animations (PlayStation Blog)

[Keyser_Soze]

You heard it here first. @Greatoneshere always has hard on when he plays a video game!

[BloodyHell]

I played the game on the second highest difficulty, with supplies on moderate. Thats good enough for me. I like hard, I hate beating my head against the wall. 

[Kal-El814]

I am confused by anyone who thinks the pacing of the original is better, unless they’re speaking about the length specifically; if someone thought TLoU2 was too long, I could probably be persuaded. Other than that, the first game takes a LONG time to get going from a gameplay perspective, there’s so much time spent pushing Ellie on pallets, and then the last gameplay section just stinks. It’s not a well paced game. 

[JPDunks4]

1 hour ago, BloodyHell said:

I played the game on the second highest difficulty, with supplies on moderate. Thats good enough for me. I like hard, I hate beating my head against the wall. 

And thats fine.  I didn't mean to come off as, you must play on Hard to enjoy the game. 

 

Just I think finding the right balance of difficulty, especially with the sliders, to make you at least have to properly think and engage in the combat in a strategic way, and inventory management in a strategic way, is what makes the game shine more from a gameplay perspective, at least imo.  

 

I thought about going back and replaying it to get collectibles, but too much in the backlog I want to keep tackling.

 

I will probably revisit both games in a few years, hopefully on some kind of boosted PS5 mode.  I really appreciate what Naughty Dog has done, and wonder what they do next, and how insane it'll look on PS5.  I still have to play Uncharted 4, I'll do that soon.

[johnny]

1 hour ago, Kal-El814 said:

I am confused by anyone who thinks the pacing of the original is better, unless they’re speaking about the length specifically; if someone thought TLoU2 was too long, I could probably be persuaded. Other than that, the first game takes a LONG time to get going from a gameplay perspective, there’s so much time spent pushing Ellie on pallets, and then the last gameplay section just stinks. It’s not a well paced game. 

The pallets are annoying. Joel should have just taught her to swim before they got to Pittsburgh.

 

the last gameplay section you can actually avoid almost all of the guys if you run to the right. I found it pretty good when you do that!  

[BloodyHell]

28 minutes ago, johnny said:

The pallets are annoying. Joel should have just taught her to swim before they got to Pittsburgh.

 

the last gameplay section you can actually avoid almost all of the guys if you run to the right. I found it pretty good when you do that!  

I usually like to kill everyone, all through the game. Usually with nail bombs and the hunting pistol. 
 

In part 2 its been explosive arrows and leading people into trip mines with ellie. 
 

my biggest kill is 6 humans with one arrow in the TV station. 

[Kal-El814]

2 hours ago, johnny said:

The pallets are annoying. Joel should have just taught her to swim before they got to Pittsburgh.

 

the last gameplay section you can actually avoid almost all of the guys if you run to the right. I found it pretty good when you do that!  

The last time I played right before TLoU2 came out the AI glitched and as soon as they stopped actively looking for Joel they just didn’t move at all. They should patch that into the game. 

[atom631]

Took a  break from video games and have been spending lots of time outside. finally jumped back in today. 
 

I finished day 3 and now i see where the game is going.  This definitely makes the game more interesting. 

[Brian]

Finished a big boss fight. 
 

[SaysWho?]

I loved the final gameplay section of 1.

[BloodyHell]

Man, there has been some incredible cutscenes and conversations I've found this second time around that I had no idea about. I found so many new places in spots I thought I had completely searched. Like the Bank, I had no idea there was a bank (it had the one safe I missed), and the special piece of treasure in it. Some minor stuff with Joel that I missed which was really sweet. And I only finished up to the start of Seattle day 2. 
 

 

If Naughty Dog really wants to give us a new game in this world, I would like one about Joels early life during the outbreak (there’s actually an old FEDRA note you find in one area from a Private Miller, I wonder if thats coincidence, but I always thought Joel was a hunter before he and tommy separate).

 

that, or 30+ years in the future. They have finally set up a lab in Jackson that they can create a cure from, but the doctor needs to be brought safely to jackson. The first half about JJ getting to the doctor (and us finding out its Abby, who began studying to take up her father’s work once she and Lev made it to the fireflies after the end of tLoU2), and getting her back to Jackson. The second half of the game could be about getting the vaccine to the other communities that have popped up around the country. 
 

anything, as long as the protagonist is not Ellie. I really don’t want to see her go through more Trauma. Her, Joel, and Abby are some of my favorite characters of this generation, and I don’t think I want to see either of them continue to suffer.

[BloodyHell]

20 hours ago, ManUtdRedDevils said:

Finished a big boss fight. 
 

Spoiler

Was it in the hospital? If so, I found it frantic at first, I died twice, but then realized it was actually a very easy battle. Just s little spongy.

 

[Kal-El814]

11 hours ago, SaysWho? said:

I loved the final gameplay section of 1.

 

Joel being able to Rambo his way through a couple dozen well-trained soldiers armed with M-16s is goofy. Most of the combat and arenas are set up in a way to feel reasonably organic throughout TLoU and there's really no other section in the game where anyone is singularly motivated to stop one or two people from getting to one place specifically. The Fireflies have been waiting god knows how long to produce the cure and the doors to the pediatrics ward and the surgical suite specifically are unlocked and guarded by nobody despite the fact that Marlene has misgivings about letting Joel live. I think it's the worst section in the game from both a narrative and gameplay perspective even if the ultimate payoff is obviously very good.

[Bloodporne]

13 hours ago, SaysWho? said:

I loved the final gameplay section of 1.

I also thought that was hands down the best fight of the entire game and I wished they had gotten to that level of encounter by about the 3/4 point or earlier. Many fights prior to that felt too brief to me and I really felt the need to rely on every single tact I could muster up here. That whole area was very eerie too. 

 

That and that lake resort level was also fantastic and could've been three time as long as far as I'm concerned.

 

 

[SaysWho?]

2 hours ago, Kal-El814 said:

 

Joel being able to Rambo his way through a couple dozen well-trained soldiers armed with M-16s is goofy. Most of the combat and arenas are set up in a way to feel reasonably organic throughout TLoU and there's really no other section in the game where anyone is singularly motivated to stop one or two people from getting to one place specifically. The Fireflies have been waiting god knows how long to produce the cure and the doors to the pediatrics ward and the surgical suite specifically are unlocked and guarded by nobody despite the fact that Marlene has misgivings about letting Joel live. I think it's the worst section in the game from both a narrative and gameplay perspective even if the ultimate payoff is obviously very good.

 

He's mowed plenty of people down and survived a long enough time that it's not goofy whatsoever; it's expected. They didn't even think these two were still alive, and they surely couldn't have expected Joel to do what he did to that extent. We've seen the incompetence of powerful organizations in reality, but when it comes to games and movies, why is the expectation that the enemies must foresee everything the protagonist is going to do? It's not like they didn't have guards; the room before the ward was brimming with soldiers. I'd have thought they were safe in there, too.

 

From a gameplay perspective, it was excellent and one of the best fights in the game, easily. 

 

42 minutes ago, Bloodporne said:

I also thought that was hands down the best fight of the entire game and I wished they had gotten to that level of encounter by about the 3/4 point or earlier. Many fights prior to that felt too brief to me and I really felt the need to rely on every single tact I could muster up here. That whole area was very eerie too. 

 

That and that lake resort level was also fantastic and could've been three time as long as far as I'm concerned.

 

 

 

Exactly what I thought about it. You have this whole sandbox to utilize, and the best way to defeat it is to have some proficiency with all your weapons and not be afraid to explore the place, however eerie it is. It's tense when you don't have listen mode, either.

[Kal-El814]

Just now, SaysWho? said:

He's mowed plenty of people down and survived a long enough time that it's not goofy whatsoever; it's expected. They didn't even think these two were still alive, and they surely couldn't have expected Joel to do what he did to that extent. We've seen the incompetence of powerful organizations in reality, but when it comes to games and movies, why is the expectation that the enemies must foresee everything the protagonist is going to do? It's not like they didn't have guards; the room before the ward was brimming with soldiers. I'd have thought they were safe in there, too.

 

From a gameplay perspective, it was excellent and one of the best fights in the game, easily. 

 

Yeah, I appreciate everyone draws this line at different points. Joel's obviously an accomplished survivor and can hold his own against the infected and even wandering mobs of humans, I have no issue with that. Joel being able to round the corner of a hallway where multiple, trained militia members have ARs and are waiting for him yet politely don't unload with enough bullets to swiss cheese him instantly for no reason beyond plot just strains credulity for me. The Fireflies aren't any smarter than the damned runners; if one of them has Joel in sight in front of them they will happily refrain from shooting so they can get a better look at the graceful arc a brick is taking towards their head.

[Bloodporne]

1 hour ago, Kal-El814 said:

 

Yeah, I appreciate everyone draws this line at different points. Joel's obviously an accomplished survivor and can hold his own against the infected and even wandering mobs of humans, I have no issue with that. Joel being able to round the corner of a hallway where multiple, trained militia members have ARs and are waiting for him yet politely don't unload with enough bullets to swiss cheese him instantly for no reason beyond plot just strains credulity for me. The Fireflies aren't any smarter than the damned runners; if one of them has Joel in sight in front of them they will happily refrain from shooting so they can get a better look at the graceful arc a brick is taking towards their head.

I still marvel at the fact that nobody in that world has figured out yet that p-lam millwork counters that have been exposed to the elements for two decades plus can actually be PENETRATED BY FUCKING BULLETS.

[JPDunks4]

9 hours ago, BloodyHell said:

Spoiler

Was it in the hospital? If so, I found it frantic at first, I died twice, but then realized it was actually a very easy battle. Just s little spongy.

 

Spoiler

 

This could potentially be a spoiler for some...

 

I semi had it spoiled for me as I knew something was coming up the entire time I was there...

 

@Emperor Diocletian II would u mind spoiler tagging it.  

[atom631]

9 hours ago, BloodyHell said:

Spoiler

Was it in the hospital? If so, I found it frantic at first, I died twice, but then realized it was actually a very easy battle. Just s little spongy.

 

Spoiler

Are you talking about the part where you fall through the floor and the WLF are down there and then all the infected come? 
 

if so, I lobbed a mollie at the WLF which made them scream and all the infected rushed them. I then just bolted through door. 

 

[BloodyHell]

20 minutes ago, atom631 said:

  Hide contents

Are you talking about the part where you fall through the floor and the WLF are down there and then all the infected come? 
 

if so, I lobbed a mollie at the WLF which made them scream and all the infected rushed them. I then just bolted through door. 

 

Nope. Where are you?

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

@JPDunks4 - what am I supposed to so?

[atom631]

33 minutes ago, BloodyHell said:

Nope. Where are you?

Spoiler

Day 1 Abby  - hostile territory  

 

[JPDunks4]

24 minutes ago, Emperor Diocletian II said:

@JPDunks4 - what am I supposed to so?

Nevermind, it's been done.

 

Just a light spoiler tag that was missed.  It's been fixed though.

[SoberChef]

On 7/8/2020 at 11:35 PM, BloodyHell said:

I started a second play through, which is very rare. I love playing this game. And I love blowing people up with explosive arrows. 

Thoroughly cathartic when you do that, I concur!

[SaysWho?]

22 hours ago, Kal-El814 said:

 

Yeah, I appreciate everyone draws this line at different points. Joel's obviously an accomplished survivor and can hold his own against the infected and even wandering mobs of humans, I have no issue with that. Joel being able to round the corner of a hallway where multiple, trained militia members have ARs and are waiting for him yet politely don't unload with enough bullets to swiss cheese him instantly for no reason beyond plot just strains credulity for me. The Fireflies aren't any smarter than the damned runners; if one of them has Joel in sight in front of them they will happily refrain from shooting so they can get a better look at the graceful arc a brick is taking towards their head.

 

It's easy to say, "Why do the Fireflies pay more attention to the bottle?" Because making games is hard. AI is the most difficult thing you could do in a game with the sheer number of things multiple AI characters are reacting to. It was only this century IIRC that a computer beat a world champion chess player, and that's a 64x64 grid with huge limits on what each piece can do. When you have multiple AI characters reacting in real-time in a stealth/action hybrid where you can run in any direction and use different weapons that'll do different things and affect either one enemy or a group of enemies, you've given the AI an infinite amount of things to do and react to that are significantly more complicated than a 64x64 board.

 

The fact that you can run out of ammo in that game, try to take a shot, and the AI will acknowledge you've run out of bullets and come at you, was pretty damned great. The fact that your AI companion would attack them but say something to the affect like, "Hey asshole!" to acknowledge that she's doing it as a surprise attack, was a big deal. While I get your criticisms, I really don't get why you always ask for nearly impossible tasks in the AI department all the time, especially when the AI is much better than 10 to 20 years before the first game released. You have to accept that AI isn't there yet. You think the people who program it don't know about this and wish the AI could be far more complex? It's not a reasonable criticism. 50 years from now, let's see where game AI is and maybe we can complain about it.

 

All that aside, bottle distractions can apply to many situations in the game; the final battle is still fantastic.

[Greatoneshere]

3 hours ago, SaysWho? said:

AI stuff

 

I had the same exact thoughts. Dynamic AI is hard to come by, and I felt the AI on hard (in this game) was about on par with MGS or Tenchu in terms of stealth, in good ways.

[atom631]

the AI in this one is leaps and bounds better than the first. Ellie was awful in the first game.  it was so bad it often broke the immersion. That was my main reason I didn’t place the first one on such a high pedestal as everyone else. I’d rather not have a companions than for them to not be recognized by the enemy at all. 
 

the one is much better. There was a part right in beginning day 1 when you are trying to get into a building and the infected are all in the courtyard. You can sneak through the tallgrass then hop up on scaffolding. I wound up sneaking through lightning fast, leaving Dina behind. She kept trying to do her best to avoid them. They caught on to her once and she bolt and dropped to the grass to lose them. I then lobbed a brick and it gave her enough time to sneak past. It was really well done and I was amazed how well the ai was. 

[skillzdadirecta]

So I finished this earlier today and want to collect my thoughts and write my thoughts on the game a little later. Definitely a 10 out of 10 game... probably one my personal games of the generation. That said the game definitely pushes and even runs up against the limitations of this kind of narrative in a videogame. I'll give more thoughts later, but this game pushes boundaries for sure.

 

EDIT: My final playtime was about 32 hours. I played on hard and took my time. Didn't find all of the collectibles but found a decent amount.

[Phaseknox]

28 minutes ago, skillzdadirecta said:

So I finished this earlier today

Just in time for Ghost of Tsushima.

[skillzdadirecta]

7 minutes ago, Phaseknox said:

Just in time for Ghost of Tsushima.

Yup yup! My PS4 is locked and loaded.

[Bloodporne]

11 hours ago, Greatoneshere said:

 

I had the same exact thoughts. Dynamic AI is hard to come by, and I felt the AI on hard (in this game) was about on par with MGS or Tenchu in terms of stealth, in good ways.

Also @SaysWho?, I watched that Making Of video after beating TLOU Remastered the other week and the dev actually discusses the AI in a way that, paraphrased, basically says they had come up with some crazy smart AI shit only to playtest it and realize that level of realism didn't make for a fun game anymore and ultimately dialed it way back. And yes, even a TLOU dev stated something like 'and what does a game have to be first? Fun'.

 

I actually really liked that documentary.

 

 

[Mercury33]

I just finished Day 3.  Just gonna lay down on the floor for the next week. Good lord. 

[SoberChef]

7 minutes ago, Mercury33 said:

I just finished Day 3.  Just gonna lay down on the floor for the next week. Good lord. 

...doesn't mean you finished it.

[Kal-El814]

11 hours ago, Greatoneshere said:

 

I had the same exact thoughts. Dynamic AI is hard to come by, and I felt the AI on hard (in this game) was about on par with MGS or Tenchu in terms of stealth, in good ways.

 

MGS games other than Phantom Pain? Sure. Phantom Pain’s enemy AI is much more interesting than anything in either TLoU game and I don’t think it’s even close. Not that MGSV’s AI isn’t prone to abuse as well, of course, but the enemies in TLoU2 very obviously “cheat” when it comes to their awareness of things, and the baddies in MGSV generally behave more based on where you’ve done stuff and not where you are. In MGSV, throw an explodey thing somewhere when you’re unseen, and the AI generally explores where it blew up. Do the same thing in TLoU2 and as you crank the difficulty, the enemies magically hone in on you without any real reason.

 

 I can’t speak for Tenchu, I somehow managed to never play one of those.

 

Again I don’t think the AI in these games is BAD, but I wouldn’t go higher than passable / fine. It works a lot better outside of stealth than in it, where just about everyone in the game is super dumb.

 

11 hours ago, atom631 said:

the AI in this one is leaps and bounds better than the first. Ellie was awful in the first game.  it was so bad it often broke the immersion. That was my main reason I didn’t place the first one on such a high pedestal as everyone else. I’d rather not have a companions than for them to not be recognized by the enemy at all. 
 

the one is much better. There was a part right in beginning day 1 when you are trying to get into a building and the infected are all in the courtyard. You can sneak through the tallgrass then hop up on scaffolding. I wound up sneaking through lightning fast, leaving Dina behind. She kept trying to do her best to avoid them. They caught on to her once and she bolt and dropped to the grass to lose them. I then lobbed a brick and it gave her enough time to sneak past. It was really well done and I was amazed how well the ai was. 

 

Ellie’s pathfinding in TLoU is... super bad. I lost count of the number of times she’d bum rush and shove enemy infected without them going aggro, the unintentional comedy in that game is off the charts.

 

The pathfinding is much better in TLoU2 but if you’re in stealth, your companion seems to still be functionally invisible, even when they should be seen. Once they know where you’re at, the enemies handle that better and you have to keep track of whoever you’re with so they don’t get ganked.

[skillzdadirecta]

2 hours ago, Kal-El814 said:

n MGSV, throw an explodey thing somewhere when you’re unseen, and the AI generally explores where it blew up. Do the same thing in TLoU2 and as you crank the difficulty, the enemies magically hone in on you without any real reason.

I played the game on hard and this wasn't my experience at all. I set those remote mines down regularly and blew enemies up and they never found me unless they saw me directly. Even if they caught a glimpse of me and I repositioned unseen, they only investigate where they last saw me. At certain points in the game

 

Spoiler

I was able to draw infected into attacking human enemies by drawing them out with bottles and watched them kill each other without ever being discovered. This worked at the end in the rattlers compound where they had infected chained up. I shot their chains free with a silenced weapon and they attacked the first rattlers they saw without ever coming for me.

 

I found that if you stayed silent and unseen, enemies never found you... except for dogs and clickers possibly. Did they hone in on you more on the hardest difficulty? @JPDunks4?