Sony The Last of Us Part II OT - Best Served Cold, update: the story behind the game's realistic facial animations (PlayStation Blog)

[Amazatron]

13 minutes ago, Dodger said:

 

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It's a nice ark and everything, but I still hate Abby. The more I think about it, honestly the less it works for me. Sure her helping out Lev and his sister and the fear of heights thing was all nice, but I just don't think it makes up for everything else. So not only does she go on a 5 year revenge pursuit, presumably she became female Batman just so she can kill Joel one day. Then Joel saves her life and she immediately tortures him to death the second she sees him, and finishes him off in front of a screaming ellie without even a flinch. But I'm just supposed to forgive all that because she's nice to the two "scars" her save her life later? Nope, still not working for me. 

 

People say this game is about showing how the quest for revenge isn't worth it and can cost you everything, but it's really just Ellie who suffers. Abby's life goes pretty swimmingly after killing Joel and most of her problems in life come from helping Lev and the sister, not from Ellie. Ellie kills her friends sure, but arguably Ellie saves her life, since Abby would have died on the pillars if Ellie didn't come along. It's Ellie who loses everything because of what Joel did, Abby barely suffers after killing Joel. 

 

They did some nice things with Abby and they try to humanize her, but I was still rooting for Ellie to kill her the entire time. 

 

 

Spoiler

You seem to be missing the part where Abby’s father along with a bunch of Fireflies were murdered, the cure was lost, her tribe was disbanded, oh and she can never get close to the guy she loves because of her past trauma...

 

But yeah, other than that, she’s TikToking it up.

 

[legend]

I'll add that

Spoiler

Nothing says you have to sympathize with Abby. If the game didn't succeed in doing that for you, then it didn't. But there's no way Ellie and Joel have a moral high ground as a basis for liking them but hating Abby  

 

[johnny]

Spoiler

“Abby barely suffers after killing Joel.”

This is the most ridiculous thing I’ve read in this thread 

 

Spoiler

If she doesn’t kill Joel all of her friends would likely be alive, Owen might not have wanted to leave so badly and gotten j to trouble because the trip to Jackson changed him, she probably never comes across yara and Lev, and she wouldn’t have been on the pillars in the first place. She has Lev at the end and the hope of the fireflies. She lost A LOT after killing Joel  

 

[Spork3245]

53 minutes ago, legend said:

I'll add that

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Nothing says you have to sympathize with Abby. If the game didn't succeed in doing that for you, then it didn't. But there's no way Ellie and Joel have a moral high ground as a basis for liking them but hating Abby  

 

I’ll go one further to say

Spoiler

If the game didn’t change/lessen your hate/resentment towards Abby by the end, it’s because you were dicking around on your smartphone or something during cutscenes and dialogue.  

 

[legend]

11 minutes ago, Spork3245 said:

I’ll go one further to say

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If the game didn’t change/lessen your hate/resentment towards Abby by the end, it’s because you were dicking around on your smartphone or something during cutscenes and dialogue.  

 

 

 

 

Spoiler

I give some leeway, because when I started Abby's side I said to my wife that it would be a tall order to make me like her. Even acknowledging from the start that I knew that Ellie had, and would have, no moral high ground, it still seemed like a big ask.

 

While they did pull it off with flying colors for me, I give people slack for not coming around given how hard a starting point it was.

 

[Kal-El814]

44 minutes ago, johnny said:

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“Abby barely suffers after killing Joel.”

This is the most ridiculous thing I’ve read in this thread 

 

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If she doesn’t kill Joel all of her friends would likely be alive, Owen might not have wanted to leave so badly and gotten j to trouble because the trip to Jackson changed him, she probably never comes across yara and Lev, and she wouldn’t have been on the pillars in the first place. She has Lev at the end and the hope of the fireflies. She lost A LOT after killing Joel  

 

 

All of this.

 

Also...

 

Spoiler

The whole notion that someone Is justified in causing suffering for others because they have been made to suffer is... problematic and the game makes its take on this pretty damn clear. If someone’s take after the game’s opening is, “man I hope Abby suffers,” as the game continues to progress... woof.

 

[Spork3245]

33 minutes ago, legend said:

 

 

 

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I give some leeway, because when I started Abby's side I said to my wife that it would be a tall order to make me like her. Even acknowledging from the start that I knew that Ellie had, and would have, no moral high ground, it still seemed like a big ask.

 

While they did pull it off with flying colors for me, I give people slack for not coming around given how hard a starting point it was.

 

That’s why I worded it how I did  

[Phaseknox]

Spoiler

I liked Abby, and thoroughly enjoyed her section of the game. I just didn't really care for them making the surgeon that Joel killed at the end of the first game her father and reason for revenge as I feel that they could have come up with something better than that. I also didn't care for how they handled her killing Joel, but beyond that I found her to be a rather likable character.

 

I felt for her the most when she was on the pillars a beaten, broken, defeated and diminished shell of her former self. I think that part of the reason why they made her so muscular in the game was to visually show just how much that she suffered and withered away in captivity, and it worked.

 

I thought that Ellie was going to let her go after seeing her in such a damaged state which is what I wanted her to do, or at the very least have a fair fight against her since they were on equal footing at that point. I didn't like Ellie immediately cutting the shit out of her with her switchblade, that seemed underhanded to me. But I was glad that she spared her in the end.

 

[Dodger]

1 hour ago, johnny said:

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“Abby barely suffers after killing Joel.”

This is the most ridiculous thing I’ve read in this thread 

 

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If she doesn’t kill Joel all of her friends would likely be alive, Owen might not have wanted to leave so badly and gotten j to trouble because the trip to Jackson changed him, she probably never comes across yara and Lev, and she wouldn’t have been on the pillars in the first place. She has Lev at the end and the hope of the fireflies. She lost A LOT after killing Joel  

 

 

 

Spoiler

Nearly all of her problems stem from helping Yara and Lev, and those are the only relationships that make her a redeemable person in the first place. So she had to kill Joel...to become a decent person, because they make it clear she's just a normal shit bag WLF before that. That's.... not suffering. She's already fucked with the WLF before her friends even die, so one way or another she wasn't seeing them again. 

 

You guy are way too forgiving. Give someone a fear of heights, have them save a couple a kids and they can apparently brutally murder whoever they want as long as they had a good reason to. 

 

[SaysWho?]

Can't wait to click on all this shit

[Dodger]

21 minutes ago, SaysWho? said:

Can't wait to click on all this shit

 

Better hurry up motherfucker, we gotta know what team you are on. This is serious internet business so I suggest you call in sick to work tomorrow and get this game wrapped up so we can know. 

[Keyser_Soze]

38 minutes ago, SaysWho? said:

Can't wait to click on all this shit

 

[Keyser_Soze]

 

[legend]

1 hour ago, Dodger said:

 

 

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Nearly all of her problems stem from helping Yara and Lev, and those are the only relationships that make her a redeemable person in the first place. So she had to kill Joel...to become a decent person, because they make it clear she's just a normal shit bag WLF before that. That's.... not suffering. She's already fucked with the WLF before her friends even die, so one way or another she wasn't seeing them again. 

 

You guy are way too forgiving. Give someone a fear of heights, have them save a couple a kids and they can apparently brutally murder whoever they want as long as they had a good reason to. 

 

 

Spoiler

So you're telling me, having your friends killed is the same as you not personally seeing them again?

 

 

As I said earlier, you don't have to like Abby. But hating her because of the bad things she did while being perfectly okay with Ellie is just plain inconsistent.

 

[Spork3245]

6 minutes ago, legend said:

 

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So you're telling me, having your friends killed is the same as you not personally seeing them again?

 

 

As I said earlier, you don't have to like Abby. But hating her because of the bad things she did while being perfectly okay with Ellie is just plain inconsistent.

 

Spoiler

“The devil you know” I guess?

 

[Spork3245]

1 hour ago, SaysWho? said:

Can't wait to click on all this shit

 

 

Don’t. You’ll regret it. I promise.

 

[SaysWho?]

4 minutes ago, Spork3245 said:

 

 

Don’t. You’ll regret it. I promise.

 

 

Ha, I mean I can't wait until I can do so to see what y'all's opinions are on everything without fear of spoilers.

[Dodger]

7 minutes ago, legend said:

 

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So you're telling me, having your friends killed is the same as you not personally seeing them again?

 

 

As I said earlier, you don't have to like Abby. But hating her because of the bad things she did while being perfectly okay with Ellie is just plain inconsistent.

 

 

Spoiler

It’s not the same but the point is most of her problems stem from helping Lev and Yara, not killing Joel. You seem to putting Joel’s sins on Ellie. Pretty much everyone in this game could probably be revenge killed by somebody. Maybe part 3 will be Dina getting killed by the son of a random WLF patrol she killed and ND will have him have a fear of drowning With a swimming section and show him helping out some old lady and we can say what a great guy he was. 
 

I admit it, I don’t want to like Joel’s killer. Personally I don’t think they did nearly enough to make to make her like able, sure Lev is a great new character, but we could have gotten that without Abby.

 

[Dodger]

@SaysWho? you ever play Ruiner? You like housemarque games so you might like it.

[legend]

1 hour ago, Dodger said:

 

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It’s not the same but the point is most of her problems stem from helping Lev and Yara, not killing Joel. You seem to putting Joel’s sins on Ellie. Pretty much everyone in this game could probably be revenge killed by somebody. Maybe part 3 will be Dina getting killed by the son of a random WLF patrol she killed and ND will have him have a fear of drowning With a swimming section and show him helping out some old lady and we can say what a great guy he was. 
 

I admit it, I don’t want to like Joel’s killer. Personally I don’t think they did nearly enough to make to make her like able, sure Lev is a great new character, but we could have gotten that without Abby.

 

 

Spoiler

Most of her problems, the problems that really matter, do not stem from helping Lev and Yara. Her friends die because of Ellie. That's not putting Joel's sins on Ellie. Ellie straight up tortures and/or murders Abby's friends. It's a pretty uncomfortable scene hitting the square button to have Ellie  smash Nora with a pipe until she talks. Abby lets Ellie go, a second time, and Ellie comes at her *yet again*.

 

Ellie is in no way shape or form on a moral high ground. Any evil Abby does, Ellie does as well and I'd say Abby had more cause for her actions against Joel than Ellie did, and Abby restricted her vengeance specifically to Joel and not his friends.

 

So you can still not like Abby, but you can't put your dislike of her on her being bad if you don't hold Ellie to the same standard.

 

[Dodger]

3 minutes ago, legend said:

 

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Most of her problems, the problems that really matter, do not stem from helping Lev and Yara. Her friends die because of Ellie. That's not putting Joel's sins on Ellie. Ellie straight up tortures and/or murders Abby's friends. It's a pretty uncomfortable scene hitting the square button to have Ellie  smash Nora with a pipe until she talks. Abby lets Ellie go, a second time, and Ellie comes at her *yet again*.

 

Ellie is in no way shape or form on a moral high ground. Any evil Abby does, Ellie does as well and I'd say Abby had more cause for her actions against Joel than Ellie did, and Abby restricted her vengeance specifically to Joel and not his friends.

 

So you can still not like Abby, but you can't put your dislike of her on her being bad if you don't hold Ellie to the same standard.

 

 

Spoiler

Maybe if you had to press square to beat Joel to death with that golf club as Abby you’d have a different view. I don’t agree Abby has better reasons either, Ellie literally watches Abby cave in Joel’s head in front of her while she pleads for his life. Both have done some shitty stuff, but I just can’t get on board with Abby being redeemed because she has a fear of heights and helps out Lev and Yara. Ellie is just going on with her 19 year old life when Abby fucks it all up by killing Joel. 
 

I just don’t buy that Abby gets to torture Joel to death but Ellie going out on her revenge mission makes her the asshole.

 

[legend]

8 minutes ago, Dodger said:

 

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Maybe if you had to press square to beat Joel to death with that golf club as Abby you’d have a different view. I don’t agree Abby has better reasons either, Ellie literally watches Abby cave in Joel’s head in front of her while she pleads for his life. Both have done some shitty stuff, but I just can’t get on board with Abby being redeemed because she has a fear of heights and helps out Lev and Yara. Ellie is just going on with her 19 year old life when Abby fucks it all up by killing Joel. 
 

I just don’t buy that Abby gets to torture Joel to death but Ellie going out on her revenge mission makes her the asshole.

 

 

Spoiler

Why would  that change my view? I'm not ignoring the evil Abby did. What she did was absolutely fucked up. I'm saying Ellie did just as much and that because of that you can't blame your dislike of Abby on her doing evil if you like Ellie.

 

[Dodger]

2 minutes ago, legend said:

 

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Why would  that change my view? I'm not ignoring the evil Abby did. What she did was absolutely fucked up. I'm saying Ellie did just as much and that because of that you can't blame your dislike of Abby on her doing evil if you like Ellie.

 

 

Spoiler

Ellie was just minding her own business when she walks in on Abby killing Joel. Is she supposed to do nothing? But somehow Abby gets a George W Bush image rehab tour and everyone fawns all over what a great character she is and how Ellie is the real asshole. Except literally everything that happens in this game is because Abby kills Joel and everyone just shrugs their shoulders and says Joel had it coming. It just doesn’t work for me. 

 

[Amazatron]

5 minutes ago, Dodger said:

 

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Ellie was just minding her own business when she walks in on Abby killing Joel. Is she supposed to do nothing? But somehow Abby gets a George W Bush image rehab tour and everyone fawns all over what a great character she is and how Ellie is the real asshole. Except literally everything that happens in this game is because Abby kills Joel and everyone just shrugs their shoulders and says Joel had it coming. It just doesn’t work for me. 

 

 

Spoiler

OMFG, Joel straight up slaughters her dad and a bunch of her people while denying them a cure. Do you not see why Abby would want to bash Joel's head in with a golf club?

 

[Dodger]

3 minutes ago, Amazatron said:

 

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OMFG, Joel straight up slaughters her dad and a bunch of her people while denying them a cure. Do you not see why Abby would want to bash Joel's head in with a golf club?

 

 

Spoiler

Yes they make it quite clear why Abby kills Joel. Then Ellie walks in on her killing Joel, and for some reason everyone thinks what Abby did was ok but what Ellie does isn’t, which makes no sense. Why does Abby get her revenge quest and Ellie shouldn’t? 

 

[Amazatron]

8 minutes ago, Dodger said:

 

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Yes they make it quite clear why Abby kills Joel. Then Ellie walks in on her killing Joel, and for some reason everyone thinks what Abby did was ok but what Ellie does isn’t, which makes no sense. Why does Abby get her revenge quest and Ellie shouldn’t? 

 

 

Spoiler

I don't think either side is OK, they were both fueled by revenge and rage and ended up losing most of what they hold dear in the process, that's the whole point. The game isn't about Ellie's revenge quest nor is it about who deserves vengeance and that is what all these people bitching about it don't seem to grasp.

 

[legend]

17 minutes ago, Dodger said:

 

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Ellie was just minding her own business when she walks in on Abby killing Joel. Is she supposed to do nothing? But somehow Abby gets a George W Bush image rehab tour and everyone fawns all over what a great character she is and how Ellie is the real asshole. Except literally everything that happens in this game is because Abby kills Joel and everyone just shrugs their shoulders and says Joel had it coming. It just doesn’t work for me. 

 

 

Spoiler

I don't think anyone here, and certainly not me, has said Ellie is "the real asshole." All I said was Abby was my second favorite character. You can enjoy characters without thinking they're hero saints, ya know? I've even explicitly told you just previously that I don't in anyway deny the evil Abby has done. So I would appreciate you not putting words in my mouth.

 

The only thing I've pointed is that you justifying your hate for Abby because she killed Joel out of revenge for killing her father (and all the fireflies, and damning all of humanity but lets set that set that aside and call it even), while being perfectly a-okay with Ellie brutally killing multiple people also out of revenge is inconsistent. You can dislike Abby all you want, but that's a rationalization for your hate at best. 

 

[Amazatron]

11 minutes ago, Dodger said:

 

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Yes they make it quite clear why Abby kills Joel. Then Ellie walks in on her killing Joel, and for some reason everyone thinks what Abby did was ok but what Ellie does isn’t, which makes no sense. Why does Abby get her revenge quest and Ellie shouldn’t? 

 

 

Spoiler

I guess my question to you is, say Ellie does kill Abby at the Pillars in the end, does she kill Lev too? Would that make you feel satisfied about the game to finish the revenge quest? Regardless, she probably loses Dina and the baby because of leaving so does it even matter?

 

[TheLeon]

I've typed and deleted like 6 different paragraphs in my attempt to weigh in on this debate, but I'm too dumb and tired to properly articulate what I'm thinking. The short version is: these are all good and likable characters, even if they aren't always good people. They all do dark shit at times, but they're living in a dark, shitty world. 

[SaysWho?]

5 hours ago, Dodger said:

@SaysWho? you ever play Ruiner? You like housemarque games so you might like it.

 

I have not, but I appreciate the suggestion! Big fan of Housemarque.  

[Greatoneshere]

This is a silly conversaion:

 

Spoiler

Abby is entirely justified in killing Joel. This sequel is an entire indictment of what Joel chooses to do at the end of the first game. As a person (like most) who felt Ellie's death, while lamentable, was worth it for a cure to save humanity, and Joel not only denied humanity a cure, subjecting us to an age of zombies, but he murders a ton of civilians and innocent people to do so, even betraying and killing Marlene. When I did this in the first game, I felt very uncomfortable, entirely feeling I was doing THE WRONG THING. Then Joel lies to Ellie on top of it all, and Ellie even explains later after she finds out the truth that she consented to giving her life, and Joel took that away, and now all she can do is go on the slow path to forgiving him. But Abby doesn't owe Joel any such kindness. If I were her, and you'd killed the dad I hero worship who was going to save humanity, as well as my entire clan/tribe/friends, yeah, I'd feel very justified in torturing and killing Joel. That's justice, theoretically. The fact that Abby, TWICE, let's Tommy and Ellie go and live proves she was in it for a very specific thing and moved on. By comparison, Ellie goes after Abby three times and only succeeds the final time, letting Abby go in the very last moment. While Abby only kills Joel and lets everything else go, Ellie goes after Abby three times, killing all of her friends and dogs and family. Abby, by comparison did no such thing in Jackson. That's not even an eye for an eye, that's an eye vs. Ellie's vindictive scorched Earth policy, like Lady Stoneheart from Game of Thrones. I'm shocked people are even confused on this issue.

 

I think it's strange a lot of players didn't feel as uncomfortable as I did at the end of the first game. What Joel did was horrific, and he was always going to get his comeuppance, and Abby was that, and it makes perfect sense. I'm sad and I miss Joel, but c'mon guys, think of the thing he did at the end of the last game. It was unforgivable, and he was always living on borrowed time. To be upset about that means some part of you was okay with the ending of the first game, which, if so, you're a bad/weird person.

 

[Kal-El814]

12 hours ago, Greatoneshere said:

This is a silly conversaion:

 

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Abby is entirely justified in killing Joel. This sequel is an entire indictment of what Joel chooses to do at the end of the first game. As a person (like most) who felt Ellie's death, while lamentable, was worth it for a cure to save humanity, and Joel not only denied humanity a cure, subjecting us to an age of zombies, but he murders a ton of civilians and innocent people to do so, even betraying and killing Marlene. When I did this in the first game, I felt very uncomfortable, entirely feeling I was doing THE WRONG THING. Then Joel lies to Ellie on top of it all, and Ellie even explains later after she finds out the truth that she consented to giving her life, and Joel took that away, and now all she can do is go on the slow path to forgiving him. But Abby doesn't owe Joel any such kindness. If I were her, and you'd killed the dad I hero worship who was going to save humanity, as well as my entire clan/tribe/friends, yeah, I'd feel very justified in torturing and killing Joel. That's justice, theoretically. The fact that Abby, TWICE, let's Tommy and Ellie go and live proves she was in it for a very specific thing and moved on. By comparison, Ellie goes after Abby three times and only succeeds the final time, letting Abby go in the very last moment. While Abby only kills Joel and lets everything else go, Ellie goes after Abby three times, killing all of her friends and dogs and family. Abby, by comparison did no such thing in Jackson. That's not even an eye for an eye, that's an eye vs. Ellie's vindictive scorched Earth policy, like Lady Stoneheart from Game of Thrones. I'm shocked people are even confused on this issue.

 

I think it's strange a lot of players didn't feel as uncomfortable as I did at the end of the first game. What Joel did was horrific, and he was always going to get his comeuppance, and Abby was that, and it makes perfect sense. I'm sad and I miss Joel, but c'mon guys, think of the thing he did at the end of the last game. It was unforgivable, and he was always living on borrowed time. To be upset about that means some part of you was okay with the ending of the first game, which, if so, you're a bad/weird person.

 

 

Spoiler

Yeah I agree with this.

 

I think one of the main problems with TLoU is that because we get to control Joel for so long, it’s easy for players to gloss over the stuff that he said he did in between the outbreak and when we get control of him as a player. And that makes it difficult to condemn him for the stuff he does once Ellie gets kidnapped, where he’s torturing people, and what he does at the end. It’s always been weird to me that some people insisted that “Joel did nothing wrong.” Even if you feel that he was somehow justified in getting Ellie off that operating table... he lies to her about what happened.

 

It’s only in TLoU2 that we see how deep that selfishness goes. He continues to gaslight Ellie for YEARS and only tells her the truth when she threatens to leave. It’s not like he finally cares enough about her to be honest, it’s not like he finally comes to the conclusion that a years long deception is a shitty foundation on which to continue to build a relationship... no. It’s only when he’s sure he’ll lose her that he tells her.

 

Honestly I think TLoU2 stumbles with this a bit too, in that in the last cutscene with Ellie and Joel when they’re on Joel’s porch... Joel says if given the option to do it over, he’d do the same thing. THE SAME THING. This is after Ellie has told him that letting the Fireflies do their thing would have given her life meaning from her perspective. He’s SO SELFISH that he’d rather Ellie live a life that she feels has no meaning than to let her go. I think it’s a testament to Troy Baker’s acting and the time we spent with Joel in TLoU that allows him to be seen in any kind of positive light.

 

With that said, I don’t know that he deserves the death he got; I don’t think anyone deserves to be tortured, let alone to death.

 

I think the “control” problem trickles into TLoU2 also. I wouldn’t go so far as to say Ellie is “the villain” of this game, but most of what she’s doing is... awful. Yeah you can sing for Dina and yeah she cares about her friends but the whole pursuit is just so incredibly short sighted and vindictive. If it wasn’t for the affection we’d built for her in the first game, she’d be a difficult character to root for in this game because she’s constantly making the worst decisions possible at every opportunity. But she too is incredibly well acted and we control her for a non trivial portion of the game, so it can be difficult to divorce her intent from ours as gamers looking to advance the story.

 

[SaysWho?]

The thing you guys don't understand is

 

Spoiler

Holy fuck I need to finish this game so I can figure out wtf i going on

 

[Spork3245]

1 minute ago, SaysWho? said:

The thing you guys don't understand is

 

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Holy fuck I need to finish this game so I can figure out wtf i going on

 

A D1P debate

[legend]

42 minutes ago, Greatoneshere said:

This is a silly conversaion:

 

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Abby is entirely justified in killing Joel. This sequel is an entire indictment of what Joel chooses to do at the end of the first game. As a person (like most) who felt Ellie's death, while lamentable, was worth it for a cure to save humanity, and Joel not only denied humanity a cure, subjecting us to an age of zombies, but he murders a ton of civilians and innocent people to do so, even betraying and killing Marlene. When I did this in the first game, I felt very uncomfortable, entirely feeling I was doing THE WRONG THING. Then Joel lies to Ellie on top of it all, and Ellie even explains later after she finds out the truth that she consented to giving her life, and Joel took that away, and now all she can do is go on the slow path to forgiving him. But Abby doesn't owe Joel any such kindness. If I were her, and you'd killed the dad I hero worship who was going to save humanity, as well as my entire clan/tribe/friends, yeah, I'd feel very justified in torturing and killing Joel. That's justice, theoretically. The fact that Abby, TWICE, let's Tommy and Ellie go and live proves she was in it for a very specific thing and moved on. By comparison, Ellie goes after Abby three times and only succeeds the final time, letting Abby go in the very last moment. While Abby only kills Joel and lets everything else go, Ellie goes after Abby three times, killing all of her friends and dogs and family. Abby, by comparison did no such thing in Jackson. That's not even an eye for an eye, that's an eye vs. Ellie's vindictive scorched Earth policy, like Lady Stoneheart from Game of Thrones. I'm shocked people are even confused on this issue.

 

I think it's strange a lot of players didn't feel as uncomfortable as I did at the end of the first game. What Joel did was horrific, and he was always going to get his comeuppance, and Abby was that, and it makes perfect sense. I'm sad and I miss Joel, but c'mon guys, think of the thing he did at the end of the last game. It was unforgivable, and he was always living on borrowed time. To be upset about that means some part of you was okay with the ending of the first game, which, if so, you're a bad/weird person.

 

 

Spoiler

Yeah I agree with the majority of this. I don't think vengeance for vengeance sake is ever justified, but if I can still sympathize with Ellie's vengeance, I can certainly sympathize with Abby's.