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Houston Astros' Jeff Luhnow, AJ Hinch suspended 1 year; Alex Cora (Red Sox) and Carlos Beltran (Mets) Out


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Buzzers aren’t real because why would they lie? Lol

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46 minutes ago, ManUtdRedDevils said:

Buzzers aren’t real because why would they lie? Lol

It’s more than just “why would they lie”. His point is that they revealed everything about exactly how they cheated, they knew they weren’t going to be punished so long as they were truthful, so why would the jeopardize that over concealing the buzzers? It literally makes no sense that they would hide this one aspect of their cheating knowing that the ban hammer would likely fall on them if it were found out later.

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except they are lying cheaters so we can’t believe that’s as far as they went. They may have admitted to SOME of the cheating so that way they wouldn’t get as large of a punishment and didn’t reveal the stuff that they didn’t think could be proven. 

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10 minutes ago, johnny said:

except they are lying cheaters so we can’t believe that’s as far as they went. They may have admitted to SOME of the cheating so that way they wouldn’t get as large of a punishment and didn’t reveal the stuff that they didn’t think could be proven. 

They were given immunity for truthful cooperation with the investigation of 2017-2019. There was no punishment to be afraid of.

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20 minutes ago, johnny said:

LOL

What punishment can you get when granted immunity by the commissioner for truthful testimony? What is worse than being caught cheating in the year you won the World Series?

 

There is legitimately no logical reason to think they are hiding the truth regarding the buzzers.

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1 hour ago, sblfilms said:

What punishment can you get when granted immunity by the commissioner for truthful testimony? What is worse than being caught cheating in the year you won the World Series?

 

There is legitimately no logical reason to think they are hiding the truth regarding the buzzers.

They are hiding it. You’re assuming people (lying cheaters) are rational and honest. 

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1 hour ago, sblfilms said:

What punishment can you get when granted immunity by the commissioner for truthful testimony? What is worse than being caught cheating in the year you won the World Series?

 

There is legitimately no logical reason to think they are hiding the truth regarding the buzzers.

 

 

No one should believe a single person in the Astros organization at this point  Even if their tongues came notarized.

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14 minutes ago, johnny said:

They are hiding it. You’re assuming people (lying cheaters) are rational and honest. 

Why would they hide something less damming like buzzers in 2019 when they didn’t win the WS than the trash can scheme in 2017 when they did. Please, think long and hard about that :lol:

 

2 minutes ago, Dodger said:

 

 

No one should believe a single person in the Astros organization at this point  Even if their tongues came notarized.

 

There is literally no reason to believe the players lied to the MLB about buzzers in 2019 when they fully admitted to the trash can scheme in 2017. They were under no threat of punishment unless they lied to the MLB. So why would they tell the truth about cheating in their WS winning season but lie about cheating in their WS losing season?

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12 hours ago, sblfilms said:

It’s more than just “why would they lie”. His point is that they revealed everything about exactly how they cheated, they knew they weren’t going to be punished so long as they were truthful, so why would the jeopardize that over concealing the buzzers? It literally makes no sense that they would hide this one aspect of their cheating knowing that the ban hammer would likely fall on them if it were found out later.

Because so much of what the Astros did and are currently saying “makes sense.” :p

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13 hours ago, sblfilms said:

It’s more than just “why would they lie”. His point is that they revealed everything about exactly how they cheated, they knew they weren’t going to be punished so long as they were truthful, so why would the jeopardize that over concealing the buzzers? It literally makes no sense that they would hide this one aspect of their cheating knowing that the ban hammer would likely fall on them if it were found out later.

The Astros begrudgingly admitted to what was proven. The lack of contrition and openness leaves enough doubt that all has not been revealed especially when Manfred, who led the investigation, isn’t 100% sure. 

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So Keon Broxton apparently got suspended 2 games for throwing his batting gloves behind him and one hit an empire, and of course everyone is stating he got more punishment than any of the Astros cheater. Good job MLB, everytime anybody gets punished this season for anything, everyone will run out and state how they received more punishment than known cheaters. What a mess. Manfred is a terrible commissioner. Somehow he makes Selig look good in comparison. 

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2 hours ago, ManUtdRedDevils said:

The Astros begrudgingly admitted to what was proven. The lack of contrition and openness leaves enough doubt that all has not been revealed especially when Manfred, who led the investigation, isn’t 100% sure. 

There is no evidence that they begrudgingly admitted what was proven. Manfred said exactly the opposite in the press conference, that his granting of immunity was specifically because he couldn’t otherwise get the facts of what happened. And the leaked emails from Manfred show that they learned much more about the entire history of the Astros cheating through the investigation, including things that didn’t make it into the public report.
 

There is no “openness” that would satisfy. They cheated and that breach of trust doesn’t just go away. So everything becomes evidence of further cheating, regardless of how flimsy it is. That’s what they have to live with for breaking the rules, but it doesn’t absolve people of their responsibility to use their own critical thinking facilities and not their emotions in weighing the evidence.

 

 

4 hours ago, Kal-El814 said:

Because so much of what the Astros did and are currently saying “makes sense.” :p

 

There is a difference between what they communicated to the commissioner during the investigation and...whatever you call what they’ve been doing since the report came out. Now, importantly here, Manfred is the one making the claim that while he can’t know for certain that no cheating occurred in 2019 he doesn’t see any reason to suspect they did because of what they did reveal through the investigation once they were granted immunity for truthful testimony. Manfred may not be a great commish, but he is an accomplished lawyer and is certainly better equipped for pulling the right levers to get the truth.

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A reminder that the best baseball player in the world is the most boring person and this cheating scandal has been the best thing for baseball since it spiced things waaaay up :lol:

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One thing I’m interested in seeing is if guys like Springer will have their value in free agency reduced due to this. His contract is up after this season so we will see in relatively short order.

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8 minutes ago, sblfilms said:

One thing I’m interested in seeing is if guys like Springer will have their value in free agency reduced due to this. His contract is up after this season so we will see in relatively short order.

 

Alex Wood already mentioned how a pitcher could go to Houston, give up a few runs and while it seems like nothing, at the end of the season when it's contract negotiating time your numbers got worse and that costs guys money. Aaron Judge is likely to lose at least a few million in lifetime earnings for not winning that MVP. Their cheating definitely affected other guys salaries, maybe in small ways but it they definitely cost some pitchers some money who got bombed in Houston and messed up their numbers. Being a known cheater absolutely should reduce their free agent value. 

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4 minutes ago, Dodger said:

 

Alex Wood already mentioned how a pitcher could go to Houston, give up a few runs and while it seems like nothing, at the end of the season when it's contract negotiating time your numbers got worse and that costs guys money. Aaron Judge is likely to lose at least a few million in lifetime earnings for not winning that MVP. Their cheating definitely affected other guys salaries, maybe in small ways but it they definitely cost some pitchers some money who got bombed in Houston and messed up their numbers. Being a known cheater absolutely should reduce their free agent value. 


The Astros were middle of the road at home

in 2017 offensive stats, #14 in runs scored for example. Not a lot of pitchers went there and got bombed :p 

 

The Judge situation is more interesting to me though. Altuve won that not just because of his stats, but because the stats plus his team won 10 more games than Judge’s did. Hard to measure the win/loss effects of the cheating scheme, but maybe with a smaller gap Judge’s better stats get him the trophy.

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4 minutes ago, rc0101 said:

Altuve *may* not have cheated himself but he still benefited from it. RBIs, worn down pitchers etc. also, the WSJ report said it happened on the road as well so can’t only look at home numbers. 

The real time system didn’t happen on the road. That was the replay room decoding scheme that other teams, like NY and Boston had been doing across many seasons including 2017 and 2018. The codebreaker excel formula was actually designed to be used in this way. The wider spread use of the replay room decoding is what prompted Manfred first to issue the September 2017 memo and later to install MLB personnel in the video replay room beginning with the 2018 post season. 
 

The difference maker between the Astros in 2017 and everybody else continues to be the real time scheme at home. The efficacy of the scheme is honestly neither here nor there. It’s not possible to prove or disprove how effective it is. The brazenness of the scheme and the knowledge of what a serious issue it was that they were doing, as evidenced by their collective panic when Danny Farquhar figured out the banging was a signal, shows the guilty conscience.


They knew what they were doing was waaaaay wrong and it doesn’t matter if it helped in actuality, they did it because they thought it did while certainly knowing it was against the rules.

 

3 minutes ago, johnny said:

Manfred being a lawyer makes me trust the whole thing even less 

 Fair :devil:

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57 minutes ago, sblfilms said:


The Astros were middle of the road at home

in 2017 offensive stats, #14 in runs scored for example. Not a lot of pitchers went there and got bombed :p 

 

The Judge situation is more interesting to me though. Altuve won that not just because of his stats, but because the stats plus his team won 10 more games than Judge’s did. Hard to measure the win/loss effects of the cheating scheme, but maybe with a smaller gap Judge’s better stats get him the trophy.

 

 

Well this is America, so what happens if a few guys who did get bombed pitching in Houston decide to sue citing they lost money on their next contracts? They might not be able to squash every suit that comes.

 

Also you bring up a good point about Springer that I thought more about at lunch. What happens if he has a lukewarm market next year and signs a surprisingly low contract? Does the MLBPA file a grievance? Is not wanting to sign a known cheater enough cause to not pay him what he's otherwise worth? Pretty good odds some messy shit happens because of all this. This scandal is going to keep on giving, and while it's kind of fun and hilarious to watch the trainwreck unfold, as fans of baseball it's just a really ugly blackmark on the game that will take years to recover from. 

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16 minutes ago, sblfilms said:

The real time system didn’t happen on the road. That was the replay room decoding scheme that other teams, like NY and Boston had been doing across many seasons including 2017 and 2018. The codebreaker excel formula was actually designed to be used in this way. The wider spread use of the replay room decoding is what prompted Manfred first to issue the September 2017 memo and later to install MLB personnel in the video replay room beginning with the 2018 post season. 
 

The difference maker between the Astros in 2017 and everybody else continues to be the real time scheme at home. The efficacy of the scheme is honestly neither here nor there. It’s not possible to prove or disprove how effective it is. The brazenness of the scheme and the knowledge of what a serious issue it was that they were doing, as evidenced by their collective panic when Danny Farquhar figured out the banging was a signal, shows the guilty conscience.


They knew what they were doing was waaaaay wrong and it doesn’t matter if it helped in actuality, they did it because they thought it did while certainly knowing it was against the rules.

 

 Fair :devil:

Whether they did it in real time or not on the road Altuve still benefited from cheating even if he directly didn’t participate in it. 

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4 minutes ago, Dodger said:

 

 

Well this is America, so what happens if a few guys who did get bombed pitching in Houston decide to sue citing they lost money on their next contracts? They might not be able to squash every suit that comes.

 

Also you bring up a good point about Springer that I thought more about at lunch. What happens if he has a lukewarm market next year and signs a surprisingly low contract? Does the MLBPA file a grievance? Is not wanting to sign a known cheater enough cause to not pay him what he's otherwise worth? Pretty good odds some messy shit happens because of all this. This scandal is going to keep on giving, and while it's kind of fun and hilarious to watch the trainwreck unfold, as fans of baseball it's just a really ugly blackmark on the game that will take years to recover from. 


It is really tricky, because everybody else’s contracts are affected by what top tier talents get. Springer is easily a top 50 MLB player in 2020, he’s a guy that was about to get paid big money. Him getting less because of the cheating scandal sets the value for similar producing talents lower, which the MLBPA has to actively fight against.

 

It potentially also rewards the Astros with a lower payroll for the same players it would have otherwise resigned at a higher clip, further negating the already weak punishment of the club itself.

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7 minutes ago, sblfilms said:


It is really tricky, because everybody else’s contracts are affected by what top tier talents get. Springer is easily a top 50 MLB player in 2020, he’s a guy that was about to get paid big money. Him getting less because of the cheating scandal sets the value for similar producing talents lower, which the MLBPA has to actively fight against.

 

It potentially also rewards the Astros with a lower payroll for the same players it would have otherwise resigned at a higher clip, further negating the already weak punishment of the club itself.

 

 

The Astros going to arb with their players and pointing out their involvement in this scheme as a reason to pay them less would be top kek, I might actually hurt myself laughing at that if it happened. 

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