Guest Posted February 17, 2020 Share Posted February 17, 2020 9 minutes ago, rc0101 said: Whether they did it in real time or not on the road Altuve still benefited from cheating even if he directly didn’t participate in it. What stats do you see to back up the claim? Looking at the various players, there is no distinct increase in production by any of the players. Most have other seasons with nearly universally better stats. Even outside of my own research, every article that attempts to take a holistic view of the effects of the scheme have the end conclusion of “we just don’t know”, because it’s not like recording an incorrect score card in golf where we can literally count the actual strokes and see you shaved a stroke. That is actually a reason to be even more forceful about punishing this kind of cheating because it’s effects are nebulous and cast a long shadow of doubt across every game in which it was done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rc0101 Posted February 17, 2020 Share Posted February 17, 2020 If you don’t believe someone benefited from cheating at home and maybe away then I don’t know what to say. I guess they just like hitting trashcans and whistling? There was a reason they did it. here’s one. Team strikeout rate in 2016 - 24.5% 2017 - 16.7%. https://blogs.fangraphs.com/how-much-did-the-astros-really-benefit-from-sign-stealing/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 17, 2020 Share Posted February 17, 2020 4 minutes ago, rc0101 said: If you don’t believe someone benefited from cheating at home and maybe away then I don’t know what to say. I guess they just like hitting trashcans and whistling? There was a reason they did it. here’s one. Team strikeout rate in 2016 - 24.5% 2017 - 16.7%. You say they benefitted from it, so the onus is on you to provide substantiation of the claim. And lots of people do things that they think will help their success rate, dumb things like wearing the same socks every day. Their belief in it working doesn’t make it work. So again, let’s look at stats and see what story they tell because if the cheating certainly helps we should see clear evidence of this. Josh Reddick today said he didn’t participate in the trash can scheme specifically because it wasn’t something that he believed would be effective, potentially even detrimental. I’m glad you went right for the strikeout rate! The Astros got rid of their 5 top strike out guys and specifically crafted a team to strike out less, including how they went about off season and spring training changes. You can read articles prior to the season predicting this decline. The decline also persists in 2018 AND 2019 precisely because they made a point of moving away from high strike out players and worked to improve the k rate of their other starters. The best data analysis so far shows small gains in OPS when the scheme called things correctly, but huge losses in OPS when it got things wrong, and largely a wash over the course of the season because of that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dodger Posted February 17, 2020 Share Posted February 17, 2020 The effect of the cheating is not what is important, it's the fact that you cheated to begin with. If you take steroids and somehow end up with worse performance, no one cuts you a break because your performance wasn't actually enhanced. Whether or not there was any benefit, there was a massive, organized operation done by the Astros and their players to gain an advantage. Whether or not that advantage materialized isn't important, they need to be punished for the effort they put in to try and gain that advantage, just like you get automatically suspended for PEDs, no one looks at your stats and tries to proportionalize your punishment, it's 80 games no matter what. Players should be punished to the degree of their proven involvement, regardless of the outcome on their stats/games. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 17, 2020 Share Posted February 17, 2020 Just now, Dodger said: The effect of the cheating is not what is important, it's the fact that you cheated to begin with. Exactly! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted February 17, 2020 Share Posted February 17, 2020 I’m waiting for Carlos Beltran Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dodger Posted February 17, 2020 Share Posted February 17, 2020 10 minutes ago, ManUtdRedDevils said: I’m waiting for Carlos Beltran He might have fucked himself out of the hall of fame, definitely ended his manager career before it started, so even though he won't be suspended for any games as a player, he might actually suffer some pretty harsh consequences for his actions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 17, 2020 Share Posted February 17, 2020 https://blogs.fangraphs.com/the-most-important-bangs-of-the-astros-scheme/ Here is a good article for @rc0101 to look over and see the net effects of the banging scheme. The more data that is collected the worse the benefit looks. This also tracks well with the MLB report saying the Astros players said they ditched all the illicit sign stealing in the middle of the 2018 season because it was found to be ineffective. The Red Sox ditched their sign stealing scheme in the 2018 playoffs and still crushed Houston and LA because there really is little indication sign stealing is a particularly productive strategy. Which brings us back to what @Dodgerjust said about the efficacy not being the issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnny Posted February 17, 2020 Share Posted February 17, 2020 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 17, 2020 Share Posted February 17, 2020 Harold Reynolds knows what’s up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Posted February 18, 2020 Share Posted February 18, 2020 So I brought all the answers to a test I took without anyone noticing. It turns out the test was super easy and I didn't even need to use the answers! Guess what? That is still cheating. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewhyteboar Posted February 18, 2020 Share Posted February 18, 2020 https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/why-im-suing-the-houston-astros-over-their-cheating/2020/02/13/c15bef00-4e9f-11ea-bf44-f5043eb3918a_story.html A pitcher is suing the Astros. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted February 18, 2020 Share Posted February 18, 2020 Surprisingly, the one sympathetic voice in MLB comes from the other team who cheated. 😂 "I understand players' frustrations and stuff like that, but I think in my opinion, it's already getting a little bit too much," Martinez said. "We have to move past it at some point. We can't continue to talk about it. I know it's frustrating right now. People want to talk about it, this and that, but it's 2020. I think teams are aware of everything that's kind of happened. "... From here on out, it's going to be a different message in the clubhouses and a different environment with people, like steroids. The punishments were so harsh that people weren't going to attempt to think about doing anymore. I think it will get to that point." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted February 18, 2020 Share Posted February 18, 2020 On Monday, sportsbook William Hill set the over/under on number of Astros batters to get plunked this season at 83.5. In the past five seasons, only nine teams have been hit by pitches more than 83.5 times, but, with the anger over the sign-stealing scandal involving Houston, there is plenty of reason to believe the Astros will be targeted frequently. I am taking the over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 18, 2020 Share Posted February 18, 2020 2 hours ago, ManUtdRedDevils said: Surprisingly, the one sympathetic voice in MLB comes from the other team who cheated. 😂 "I understand players' frustrations and stuff like that, but I think in my opinion, it's already getting a little bit too much," Martinez said. "We have to move past it at some point. We can't continue to talk about it. I know it's frustrating right now. People want to talk about it, this and that, but it's 2020. I think teams are aware of everything that's kind of happened. "... From here on out, it's going to be a different message in the clubhouses and a different environment with people, like steroids. The punishments were so harsh that people weren't going to attempt to think about doing anymore. I think it will get to that point." A little change of pace from his previous thoughts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted February 18, 2020 Share Posted February 18, 2020 4 hours ago, sblfilms said: Harold Reynolds knows what’s up. Curt Schilling believes the #Astros used buzzers pic.twitter.com/eCXSEVpm7E — Maggie Gray (@MaggieGray) February 13, 2020 Curt>>>>Harold Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 18, 2020 Share Posted February 18, 2020 32 minutes ago, ManUtdRedDevils said: Curt>>>>Harold Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnny Posted February 18, 2020 Share Posted February 18, 2020 Schilling is right. Put that man in the hall of fame. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewhyteboar Posted February 18, 2020 Share Posted February 18, 2020 Re Schilling: 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted February 18, 2020 Share Posted February 18, 2020 "It's anger," Markakis told reporters of his reaction to the Astros' scandal and the ensuing response. "I feel like every single guy over there needs a beating. It's wrong. They're messing with people's careers." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dodger Posted February 18, 2020 Share Posted February 18, 2020 Lebron James just made a post about it on twitter calling out Rob Manfred. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnny Posted February 18, 2020 Share Posted February 18, 2020 17 minutes ago, Dodger said: Lebron James just made a post about it on twitter calling out Rob Manfred. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 18, 2020 Share Posted February 18, 2020 https://theathletic.com/1614464/2020/02/17/drellich-even-without-granting-immunity-mlb-would-have-had-trouble-punishing-astros-players/ Manfred had no real options to punish the players because of the MLBPA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kal-El814 Posted February 19, 2020 Share Posted February 19, 2020 The Astros are going to be the worst heels in the history of sports. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Posted February 19, 2020 Share Posted February 19, 2020 Wait that was the Schilling take? That was pure garbage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewhyteboar Posted February 19, 2020 Share Posted February 19, 2020 If you can't punish the players, then punish the team. Why not a postseason ban* for a few years? *The Mariners still would not be able to sniff the playoffs were this to happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 20, 2020 Share Posted February 20, 2020 What an unsophisticated system your guys had@ManUtdRedDevils Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewhyteboar Posted February 20, 2020 Share Posted February 20, 2020 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost_MH Posted February 20, 2020 Share Posted February 20, 2020 People need to stop harping on the players needing to be punished. The worst they'd ever get are a bunch of fines. It's the Astros that should have been hit with harsher punishments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnny Posted February 20, 2020 Share Posted February 20, 2020 Just take away the title Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted February 20, 2020 Share Posted February 20, 2020 What Manfred is afraid to do, Little League isn’t. Astros banned in PA. Come on NY and NJ. Follow suit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 https://www.click2houston.com/sports/2020/02/20/social-media-erupts-with-cancelhouston-tweets-after-comedian-slams-astros-mlb/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=snd&utm_content=kprc2 Daniel Tosh’s punishments for the Astros sound good to me. Make him the commish! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris- Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 I deeply appreciate that all the feel-good post-flooding vibes have been replaced by this trash can fire. Get fucked, Houston! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iculus Posted February 22, 2020 Share Posted February 22, 2020 All of this is so damn funny. Everyone knew that this was going on, but were entirely too stupid to figure out a different signal scheme? The outrage is equally hilarious. I know that people, in general, hate math, but the cheating didn't even help the Astros. Baseball honestly needs more cheating. It hasn't been this much fun in years. Oh, and fuck the Dodgers lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 22, 2020 Share Posted February 22, 2020 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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