Microsoft Xbox Series X | S OT - Power Your Dreams, update: FTC case unredacted documents leaked, including XSX mid-generation refresh, new gyro/haptic-enabled controller, and next-generation plans for 2028

[JPDunks4]

15 minutes ago, crispy4000 said:

 

You might want to check the PS5 thread out before rushing to blame.  Most of what he posted was in relation to several Sony patents he's claiming are actualized in the Geometry Engine, in his PS5 dev kit. 

This shouldn't be controversial, unless you think he's lying about the dev kit.
 

 

Sure, if you want.  Don't know what point you'd be trying to make.  Because we're not talking about power here so much as render features.

 

Sony also had patents referring to PS 1-3 Back Compatibility didn't they?

 

My point simply is, Sony has every chance to correct the record, as they did with BC and other things when people were pointing out "inaccuracies".  Here they are silent, even when being asked by someone like Digital Foundry since March to clarify.  Do they have some software solutions, or custom solutions, of course, but does it match up with what Microsoft has, no one will know unless Sony clarifies. 

 

Microsoft waited to finalize their architecture to be able to have all of these things featured at a hardware level.  Like he says though, we will probably need to wait and see what advantages it actually produces.

 

Microsoft's claim is they are the only consoles with full hardware support for it.  

 

[AbsolutSurgen]

Until MS, or someone else specifically says which RDNA2 capability is only supported by Xbox hardware, it is all fanboy speculation.  The MS statement smacks of a PR statement, that while technically true, may refer to an RDNA2 capability, that Sony has a non-RDNA2 substitute.

[skillzdadirecta]

9 minutes ago, Spork3245 said:

Remember when Factor5 gave that interview before the GCN and OG XBOX came out to say how Gamecube was way more powerful than the OG XBOX and that there’s no way any other console of the gen could come close?

Is THAT who said that??? I always wondered who said the gamecube was more powerful than the OG Xbox and PS2

[Spork3245]

2 minutes ago, AbsolutSurgen said:

Until MS, or someone else specifically says which RDNA2 capability is only supported by Xbox hardware, it is all fanboy speculation.  The MS statement smacks of a PR statement, that while technically true, may refer to an RDNA2 capability, that Sony has a non-RDNA2 substitute.

Probably. I feel like this is going to be a PS3 vs X360 gen, where one is technically better but the other is easier to develop for and/or get better graphics/performance out of it, making it basically a wash.

[crispy4000]

1 hour ago, JPDunks4 said:

Sony also had patents referring to PS 1-3 Back Compatibility didn't they?

 

My point simply is, Sony has every chance to correct the record, as they did with BC and other things when people were pointing out "inaccuracies".  Here they are silent, even when being asked by someone like Digital Foundry since March to clarify.  Do they have some software solutions, or custom solutions, of course, but does it match up with what Microsoft has, no one will know unless Sony clarifies.

It's never been said that PS5 would have backwards compatibility.

... We're not too far off on the rest.  What's ironic is that Cerny's extended deep dive clarified a TON at the time.  Just not enough to keep an evolving conversation ongoing. 

 

1 hour ago, AbsolutSurgen said:

Until MS, or someone else specifically says which RDNA2 capability is only supported by Xbox hardware, it is all fanboy speculation.  The MS statement smacks of a PR statement, that while technically true, may refer to an RDNA2 capability, that Sony has a non-RDNA2 substitute.

Yup.  We already know Sony's Raytracing API isn't using DX12 for RT, which is standard on other RDNA2 platforms.  So why couldn't other things be?

There's this odd notion of disbelief here when it comes to Sony's capability to do it custom.  When that's pretty much what they've always tried.
 

[crispy4000]

26 minutes ago, Spork3245 said:

Probably. I feel like this is going to be a PS3 vs X360 gen, where one is technically better but the other is easier to develop for and/or get better graphics/performance out of it, making it basically a wash.

Either that, or something akin to the GCN and Xbox as you mentioned earlier.  Where one platform had an discernible advantage, but in the grand scheme of what devs accomplished that gen, it didn't matter much.

[Spork3245]

17 minutes ago, crispy4000 said:

Either that, or something akin to the GCN and Xbox as you mentioned earlier.  Where one platform had an discernible advantage, but in the grand scheme of what devs accomplished that gen, it didn't matter much.

OG XBOX was noticeably more powerful than GCN and produced better graphics. What I posted earlier was in reference to how fanboy devs should be ignored  

For instance, GCN did not have hardware Pixel/Vertex shaders and had to run them through software, whereas the OG XBOX had full hardware pixel and vertex shading. That alone made games like Splinter Cell have the difference of night and day between the GCN and XBOX versions. 
Factor5 was just merely full of crap and had no firsthand knowledge of developing for the XBOX.

[crispy4000]

19 minutes ago, Spork3245 said:

OG XBOX was noticeably more powerful than GCN and produced better graphics. What I posted earlier was in reference to how fanboy devs should be ignored  

For instance, GCN did not have hardware Pixel/Vertex shaders and had to run them through software, whereas the OG XBOX had full hardware pixel and vertex shading. That alone made games like Splinter Cell have the difference of night and day between the GCN and XBOX versions. 
Factor5 was just merely full of crap and had no firsthand knowledge of developing for the XBOX.

 

Not arguing against that.  It's more just that technical showpieces on both platforms put them in a different class than the PS2. 

The best looking GCN games (Resident Evil 4, Metroid Prime, F-Zero GX, etc) could probably look better on Xbox.  But definitely held their own against it.  I own both platforms.

[Remarkableriots]

 

[TomCat]

6 hours ago, AbsolutSurgen said:

Until MS, or someone else specifically says which RDNA2 capability is only supported by Xbox hardware, it is all fanboy speculation.  The MS statement smacks of a PR statement, that while technically true, may refer to an RDNA2 capability, that Sony has a non-RDNA2 substitute.

 

MS Statement is not some PR bullshit it is FACT.  What do we know?  That a hardware Solution is always better then a Software solution. MS is Blatantly Blasting their HARDWARE ADVANTAGE. Yes Sony can come up with their own versions of whats  missing from RDNA2 but guess what Who's going to take the time to learn it to use it to its strengths?  Only First Party Sony Studios. Thats why they have a HISTORY of being hard to develop for.   3rd party dev. arent going to take the extra time to make games look better on the ps5  when all they will have to do is port their Very High pc setting  over to the X because of feature parity

 

Now I've been saying forever that PC is Microsoft and people laugh at me.    The Majority of games  made by Dev. are designed for Pc.  MS is making it easier on dev. not harder. The same tools they use for Pc design will work on the series X/S.  Who's Api is DLSS running on? Directx.   Velocity Architecture is why Direct Storage is coming to Pc. We know that MS is the software company and that Sony cant keep up when it comes to designing Api's  because Sony is a Hardware company. But whats funny in all this is that the Software Company  "Out Hardwared" the Hardware Company with the X being the most powerful and having the best feature set. And the Evidence of this is going to show thats why Sony is so Quite about it   THEY KNOW THEY ARE IN TROUBLE once Digital Foundry starts breaking it down and doing comparisons thats why they IGNORED they requests for CLARIFICATION.

 

One last thing.  The joke of the day is that The Heat Sink in the Ps5 is bigger then the series S.  But Sony is a great Engineering and Hardware company LOL

 

 

MS IS BEING

 

 

And Snoop got the Fridge to prove it

 

PS5 What?  Nah I'm Cooooooooooooooool on Dat

[crispy4000]

59 minutes ago, TomCat said:

The same tools they use for Pc design will work on the series X/S.  Who's Api is DLSS running on? Directx.   

DLSS isn’t part of Direct X.  That’s part of the problem.  Look up the NGX SDK.

Do you believe DLSS is coming to Series X?

[TomCat]

15 minutes ago, crispy4000 said:

DLSS isn’t part of Direct X.  That’s part of the problem.  Look up the NGX SDK.

Do you believe DLSS is coming to Series X?

A version of it yes.  MS knows how it works they have worked with Nvidia on it.  Hell I showed you a link the other day with them demonstrating DLSS working with forza horizions  Using their DirectMl  Api.   

 

And How is it not directx  related when its enabled in the game Engine.  The game engine runs on Directx

[crispy4000]

25 minutes ago, TomCat said:

A version of it yes.  MS knows how it works they have worked with Nvidia on it.  Hell I showed you a link the other day with them demonstrating DLSS working with forza horizions  Using their DirectMl  Api.   

Microsoft didn’t show off any version of DLSS in that presentation.  You’re making a false equivalence.

 

DLSS works on Linux too.

[TomCat]

7 minutes ago, crispy4000 said:

Microsoft didn’t show off any version of DLSS in that presentation.  You’re making a false equivalence.

What No I'm not.   It was showing off the API  DirectML.  Which DLSS uses to do its upsampling.   Direct ML runs in DirectX   and they did the demonstration on Nvidia Hardware using one of their games Forza Horizons

[crispy4000]

Just now, TomCat said:

What No I'm not.   It was showing off the API  DirectML.  Which DLSS uses to do its upsampling.   Direct ML runs in DirectX   and they did the demonstration on Nvidia Hardware using one of their games Forza Horizons

The upscaling method being used wasn’t DLSS.

[TomCat]

6 minutes ago, crispy4000 said:

The upscaling method being used wasn’t DLSS.

Never Said it was. I said it was using the same api as DLSS.  You dont think MS can take better advantage of their API then Nvidia.  DLSS exists because of DirectML.  So I fully Expect MS to have a Better version of it because they are the creators  Its Funny how you want to ignore the rest of that whole post and want to try and catch me in a SNAFU about  DLSS.

 

Also let me post this in here in case others missed it in the other thread.  Its Relevant in here also.

 

Microsoft's DirectML is the next-generation game-changer that nobody's talking about | OC3D News

WWW.OVERCLOCK3D.NET

---

AI has the power to revolutionise gaming, and DirectML is how Microsoft plans to exploit it

 

[AbsolutSurgen]

1 hour ago, TomCat said:

 

MS Statement is not some PR bullshit it is FACT.  What do we know?  That a hardware Solution is always better then a Software solution. MS is Blatantly Blasting their HARDWARE ADVANTAGE. Yes Sony can come up with their own versions of whats  missing from RDNA2 but guess what Who's going to take the time to learn it to use it to its strengths?  Only First Party Sony Studios. Thats why they have a HISTORY of being hard to develop for.   3rd party dev. arent going to take the extra time to make games look better on the ps5  when all they will have to do is port their Very High pc setting  over to the X because of feature parity

 

Something can both be a fact AND PR bullshit.

We have no idea what RDNA 2 feature MS is referring to.  For example, it COULD be how textures are loaded/decompressed in VRAM -- Sony has their own hardware solution, that is reputably better than the velocity architecture. 

1 hour ago, TomCat said:

Now I've been saying forever that PC is Microsoft and people laugh at me.    The Majority of games  made by Dev. are designed for Pc. 

 

The majority of games are designed for PC, PS4 and Xbox.  PS4 has long been the lead platform for most AAA games.

1 hour ago, TomCat said:

The same tools they use for Pc design will work on the series X/S. 

Devs are using the same tools for PC/Xbox/PS.

 

1 hour ago, TomCat said:

Who's Api is DLSS running on? Directx.  

1 hour ago, TomCat said:

Velocity Architecture is why Direct Storage is coming to Pc.

And?  Sony has their own custom version -- that is reputably faster than what is in Xbox.

1 hour ago, TomCat said:

We know that MS is the software company and that Sony cant keep up when it comes to designing Api's  because Sony is a Hardware company. But whats funny in all this is that the Software Company  "Out Hardwared" the Hardware Company with the X being the most powerful and having the best feature set. And the Evidence of this is going to show thats why Sony is so Quite about it   THEY KNOW THEY ARE IN TROUBLE once Digital Foundry starts breaking it down and doing comparisons thats why they IGNORED they requests for CLARIFICATION.

 

One last thing.  The joke of the day is that The Heat Sink in the Ps5 is bigger then the series S.  But Sony is a great Engineering and Hardware company LOL

 

 

 

1 minute ago, TomCat said:

Never Said it was. I said it was using the same api as DLSS.  You dont think MS can take better advantage of their API then Nvidia.  DLSS exists because of DirectML.  So I fully Expect MS to have a Better version of it because they are the creators

 

[crispy4000]

8 minutes ago, TomCat said:

Never Said it was. I said it was using the same api as DLSS.  You dont think MS can take better advantage of their API then Nvidia.  DLSS exists because of DirectML.  So I fully Expect MS to have a Better version of it because they are the creators  Its Funny how you want to ignore the rest of that whole post and want to try and catch me in a SNAFU about  DLSS.

As stated, DLSS works on Linux as well.

 

If you still want to give the credit to MS, as the “creators,” go ahead.

 

I do hope MS (+AMD) can create something better, because that would be gangsta.

[stepee]

3 minutes ago, TomCat said:

Never Said it was. I said it was using the same api as DLSS.  You dont think MS can take better advantage of their API then Nvidia.  DLSS exists because of DirectML.  So I fully Expect MS to have a Better version of it because they are the creators  Its Funny how you want to ignore the rest of that whole post and want to try and catch me in a SNAFU about  DLSS.

 

Exactly. From the beginning when MS first invented DLSS after a vision from God showed them the sacred algorithm, they said that dual path api/ai implementation was the key to the future. And now we look at Nvidia’s use of DLSS and you can all see that they (I) was right. Now sony ponies are all up in arms because they are going to get the little X running around with DLSS for $300 smackos looking better than the filthy five.

[TomCat]

20 minutes ago, AbsolutSurgen said:

Something can both be a fact AND PR bullshit.

We have no idea what RDNA 2 feature MS is referring to.  For example, it COULD be how textures are loaded/decompressed in VRAM -- Sony has their own hardware solution, that is reputably better than the velocity architecture. 

Oh Winter is Coming for Sony just wait. After the DF comparisons MS will slice Sonys Throat with valyrian steel. 

20 minutes ago, AbsolutSurgen said:

 

The majority of games are designed for PC, PS4 and Xbox.  PS4 has long been the lead platform for most AAA games.

Devs are using the same tools for PC/Xbox/PS.

 

PS5 wont be the lead dev. platform this gen

Quote

And?  Sony has their own custom version -- that is reputably faster than what is in Xbox.

 

 

 

And You only getting 600gigs of useable space because of cost.  them xtra 3 seconds aint worth all that

[AbsolutSurgen]

4 minutes ago, TomCat said:

PS5 wont be the lead dev. platform this gen

 

4 minutes ago, TomCat said:

And You only getting 600gigs of useable space because of cost.  them xtra 3 seconds aint worth all that

 

[TomCat]

15 minutes ago, AbsolutSurgen said:

 

 

 

What more do I need to tell.  The ps5 has a 800gig  hardrive because of Costs. only 625 will be useable.  I can wait 3 seconds easily for a HD with 200 gigs more space

[TomCat]

Oh My its Already Starting.   Valhalla will run at NATIVE 4k 60 on the Series X    and  will use upscalling on the ps5 to achieve 4k60

 

 

HardWare Advantage on Display ALREADY!!!

[crispy4000]

2 hours ago, TomCat said:

Never Said it was. I said it was using the same api as DLSS.  You dont think MS can take better advantage of their API then Nvidia.  DLSS exists because of DirectML.  So I fully Expect MS to have a Better version of it because they are the creators  Its Funny how you want to ignore the rest of that whole post and want to try and catch me in a SNAFU about  DLSS.

 

Also let me post this in here in case others missed it in the other thread.  Its Relevant in here also.

 

Microsoft's DirectML is the next-generation game-changer that nobody's talking about | OC3D News

WWW.OVERCLOCK3D.NET

---

AI has the power to revolutionise gaming, and DirectML is how Microsoft plans to exploit it

 

DLSS doesn’t depend on DirectML.  It’s wholly and entirely Nvidia’s algorithm.  And it works with Vulcan too.

 

I trust that if Microsoft had the ability to bring DLSS outside of nvidia’s gpu gating, we would have seen it by now: On the Series X and S both.

They’d have to convince nvidia to liscence it to them.  Which might not be the best idea anyways, with how AMD’s architecture differs. With what was announced by both MS and AMD this week, the latter appears to be exactly what it being explored right now: Non-DLSS super resolution.

 

As it stands, we’re more likely to see a “version” of DLSS on a Switch successor.

[TomCat]

2 minutes ago, crispy4000 said:

DLSS doesn’t depend on DirectML.  It’s wholly and entirely Nvidia’s algorithm.  It works with Vulcan too.

 

I trust that if Microsoft had the ability to bring DLSS outside of nvidia’s hardware gating, we would have seen it by now: on the Series X.

They’d have to convince nvidia to liscence it to them.  Which might not be the best idea anyways, with how AMD’s architecture differs. With what has been announced, the latter appears to be exactly what it being explored right now.

 

As it stands, you’re more likely to see a “version” of DLSS on a Switch successor.

 

 

O they will they just have to work out the kinks. There version of Raytracing is currently not working either.  DLSS doesnt need DirectML  just like  RTX doesnt need  DXR

[crispy4000]

7 minutes ago, TomCat said:

 

O they will they just have to work out the kinks. There version of Raytracing is currently not working either.  DLSS doesnt need DirectML  just like  RTX doesnt need  DXR

Whose?

 

DLSS needs Nvidia hardware unless they stop being stingy with it.

[TomCat]

1 minute ago, crispy4000 said:

Whose?

Microsoft.  Thats a big reason why Halo was delayed  Raytracing is not ready  and some of the other new features of the velocity Arch.  SDK's and API's for the series X are coming in Hot

[crispy4000]

13 minutes ago, TomCat said:

Microsoft.  Thats a big reason why Halo was delayed  Raytracing is not ready  and some of the other new features of the velocity Arch.  SDK's and API's for the series X are coming in Hot

I’m honestly shocked you think this, considering how much you normally give MS the benefit of the doubt.  But you’re wrong here too.

 

We haven’t seen anything about the API’s not being ready.  Extrapolating that Halo signals that makes no sense whatsoever, when several games in the launch window are using RT (Watch Dogs, Control, etc).

MS just didn’t have any game of their own ready at launch to show it off.  Other devs are.  

I’m any case, I don’t think Minecraft will take long.  They’re probably just thinking how to best market it.

[TomCat]

6 minutes ago, crispy4000 said:

I’m honestly shocked you think this, considering how much you normally give MS the benefit of the doubt.  But you’re wrong here too.

 

I don’t believe we’ve seen anything about the API’s not being ready.  Extrapolating that Halo signals that makes no sense whatsoever, when several games in the launch window are using RT (Watch Dogs, Control, etc).

MS just didn’t have anything ready at launch themselves to show it off.  Other devs are.

LOL is Watch Dogs doing a GOOD implementation of it?  Just because they are using it doesnt mean its not in Beta form (speaking on consoles) cause they have to use AMD hardware to accomplish it.   How many people on PC are complaining about Functionality and performance.  

 

Has anybody showed the BC performace of Control on Series X and did they implement Ray Tracing on it?

[Xbob42]

2 minutes ago, TomCat said:

LOL is Watch Dogs doing a GOOD implementation of it?  Just because they are using it doesnt mean its not in Beta form (speaking on consoles) cause they have to use AMD hardware to accomplish it.   How many people on PC are complaining about Functionality and performance.  

 

Has anybody showed the BC performace of Control on Series X and did they implement Ray Tracing on it?

Raytracing looks fantastic in Watch Dogs Legion. The game runs like shit no matter what unless you switch to DX11. So rest assured, raytracing is not the source of that game's performance woes. I can turn RTX from off to ultra and gain practically no FPS, which is absurd.

It also runs like shit on last-gen consoles, and, if the recent trailer is anything to go by, next-gen consoles. Plus, it doesn't look to be implementing full raytracing as at the very least the water is just basic SSR instead of PC's raytracing, and the trailer appeared to be at 1440p to boot.

 

All this is to say I think Watch Dogs Legion is a bad example of anything because Ubisoft fucking sucks.

[crispy4000]

5 minutes ago, TomCat said:

LOL is Watch Dogs doing a GOOD implementation of it?  Just because they are using it doesnt mean its not in Beta form.   How many people on PC are complaining about Functionality and performance.  

 

Has anybody showed the BC performace of Control on Series X and did they implement Ray Tracing on it?

 

I didn't say a thing about it being a good or bad implementation.  Only that it was doing it.  (With Direct X 12)

We haven't seen Control on either next-gen console yet.  But they're promising raytracing.
 

[TomCat]

 

Damn the 6800 is doing Raytracing on par with the 3070  in a Raw benchmark.  Thats surprising and Better then I thought it would be.  Thats good news for the X

[TomCat]

22 minutes ago, crispy4000 said:

I’m honestly shocked you think this, considering how much you normally give MS the benefit of the doubt.  But you’re wrong here too.

 

We haven’t seen anything about the API’s not being ready.  Extrapolating that Halo signals that makes no sense whatsoever, when several games in the launch window are using RT (Watch Dogs, Control, etc).

MS just didn’t have any game of their own ready at launch to show it off.  Other devs are.  

I’m any case, I don’t think Minecraft will take long.  They’re probably just thinking how to best market it.

 

 

Really  All you have to do is use Valhalla as an example.  At first Ubisoft said the game was going to run at 4k30   Then Microsoft gave them access to the Velocity Arch.  and the Game went up to 4k60

[TomCat]

15 minutes ago, Xbob42 said:

Raytracing looks fantastic in Watch Dogs Legion. The game runs like shit no matter what unless you switch to DX11. So rest assured, raytracing is not the source of that game's performance woes. I can turn RTX from off to ultra and gain practically no FPS, which is absurd.

It also runs like shit on last-gen consoles, and, if the recent trailer is anything to go by, next-gen consoles. Plus, it doesn't look to be implementing full raytracing as at the very least the water is just basic SSR instead of PC's raytracing, and the trailer appeared to be at 1440p to boot.

 

All this is to say I think Watch Dogs Legion is a bad example of anything because Ubisoft fucking sucks.

 

Exactly I've been saying the same thing

 

[stepee]

there is no way that TomCat wasn’t shrilling blast processing so hard in elementary school