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Who watches the Watchmen? (Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?), update - HBO confirms no second season


Brick

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Been thinking about how they've called out Angela's choice of dressing like some kind of nun a few times now. We got why Wade wears a mask last episode, I almost have to expect hers is coming up. Considering how Cal went hardcore atheist to their kids and she acquiesced I also kind of have to expect it's something seriously fucked up.

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Thinking on it, I'm not sure how I feel about the squid attack being used as a 9/11 stand-in when the 9/11 truthers of this show are right, and are also violent racists. We'll see how it plays out, but imagine if a show did a version of "Alex Jones, and the KKK were right all along!!!". 

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34 minutes ago, Brick said:

Thinking on it, I'm not sure how I feel about the squid attack being used as a 9/11 stand-in when the 9/11 truthers of this show are right, and are also violent racists. We'll see how it plays out, but imagine if a show did a version of "Alex Jones, and the KKK were right all along!!!". 

That's an interesting perspective. While I agree it's hard for the squid not to seem like a 9/11 analog, it's also taken from a pre-9/11 text, so I'm not particularly inclined to take it that way.

 

Still, it's an unavoidable comparison, and I think this is a show that is quite happy with moral grey areas. The cops are also criminals. The criminals might know the truth, but they're still terrorists. I have the feeling that this show is far from done saying what it has to say about truth and justice.

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25 minutes ago, TwinIon said:

That's an interesting perspective. While I agree it's hard for the squid not to seem like a 9/11 analog, it's also taken from a pre-9/11 text, so I'm not particularly inclined to take it that way.

 

Still, it's an unavoidable comparison, and I think this is a show that is quite happy with moral grey areas. The cops are also criminals. The criminals might know the truth, but they're still terrorists. I have the feeling that this show is far from done saying what it has to say about truth and justice.

There is none lawl

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6 hours ago, Brick said:

Thinking on it, I'm not sure how I feel about the squid attack being used as a 9/11 stand-in when the 9/11 truthers of this show are right, and are also violent racists. We'll see how it plays out, but imagine if a show did a version of "Alex Jones, and the KKK were right all along!!!". 

 

It's the same moral quandary at the end of the novel. 

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On 11/19/2019 at 11:41 AM, Brick said:

Thinking on it, I'm not sure how I feel about the squid attack being used as a 9/11 stand-in when the 9/11 truthers of this show are right, and are also violent racists. We'll see how it plays out, but imagine if a show did a version of "Alex Jones, and the KKK were right all along!!!". 


While there are certainly parallels between the two, I don’t see the two as a 1:1 comparison. The squid attack prevented a war, 9/11 started two wars.

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I was hanging with some friends last night and the show came up. One of my buddies, who is a cop and is somewhat conservative, asked me how I liked the show because while he's a fan of the graphic novel, guys on his job dismissed the show as "woke bullshit". I said that's unfair and that the show is actually pretty damn good and I don't even LIKE Lindelof. I'm curious to see if he checks it out but it's not surprising to me that certain segments of the population have issues with the show.

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1 hour ago, skillzdadirecta said:

I was hanging with some friends last night and the show came up. One of my buddies, who is a cop and is somewhat conservative, asked me how I liked the show because while he's a fan of the graphic novel, guys on his job dismissed the show as "woke bullshit". I said that's unfair and that the show is actually pretty damn good and I don't even LIKE Lindelof. I'm curious to see if he checks it out but it's not surprising to me that certain segments of the population have issues with the show.

Did he read the same graphic novel that I read ?

Cause the one I read featured a “hero” that hated women, was homophobic , and read an alt-right newspaper that’s on par with Alex Jones shit. The government was run by a 7 term right wing Nixon that used a GOD to enforce American policy on a foreign country.  This is only scratching surface , it’s “woke” AF by today’s standards 

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That was a hell of a trip and a significant twist on the original material as well. I'm kinda amazed that they're willing to go there. I really thought that this show was set where and when it was in order to avoid conflicts with the comic, but that is obviously not the case, and I'm really into it. 

 

Lindelof and Cord Jefferson (co-writer) talked to the Post about the episode, and I really liked this explanation of their thought process:

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“The idea that put-upon white guys are the ones who would invent superhero identities and be the ones seeking justice outside of the courts is kind of absurd when you think about it,” Jefferson told The Post. “They’re the ones for whom all those courts are working. The first person who would want to don a mask and a cape and go out seeking justice in a different way that was satisfactory to them, it makes total sense that it’s a person of color.”

 

I also hadn't really noticed that they never revealed who Hooded Justice was in the comics, but I think their logic makes sense.

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“I’ve always wondered, for 30 years, not just who was Hooded Justice, but why didn’t they reveal his identity?” Lindelof said. “All the other Minute Men are on a first-name basis [in the comics]. [The other heroes] call Comedian, Eddie; Captain Metropolis, Nelson; and Mothman, Byron — but they don’t even know what Hooded Justice’s first name is. That means he never took off his mask. And I asked myself, why? What was he hiding? And the answer just seemed ….he was a black man. Because in 1938, if you were a black man who was a vigilante, if anyone knew you were black, they wouldn’t consider you a hero. They would murder you in the street.”

 

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“The idea that put-upon white guys are the ones who would invent superhero identities and be the ones seeking justice outside of the courts is kind of absurd when you think about it,” Jefferson told The Post. “They’re the ones for whom all those courts are working. The first person who would want to don a mask and a cape and go out seeking justice in a different way that was satisfactory to them, it makes total sense that it’s a person of color.”

Yes this is is a discussion that has been going on for YEARS amongst comic fans and creators of color, especially ones of my generation who grew up post Watchmen and Dark Knight returns. It's why comic vigilantes appeal so much to people of color despite the fact that most of the protagonists don't look like them. 

The logic behind this Hooded Justice "retcon" works so well that it's hard to believe that this isn't what Alan Moore intended. I AM a little curious as how it's public knowledge that Hooded Justice was homosexual but not that he was black. Maybe that will be explained later.

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Hooded Justice always fascinated me because he started it all and I always wondered why Alan Moore seemed to intentionally minimize so much of his role despite starting it all. And it's because he was genuine in his heroism (despite almost everyone else doing the heroism thing in Watchmen - only Night Owl I and II were as genuine and note Night Owl I was also a cop and was inspired by Hooded Justice specifically - cops have always been key, and Moore wasn't as interested in genuine heroism) - hence why he gets the credit for stopping Comedian's sexual assault/attempted rape of Laurie. I'm so glad Lindelof was as curious as I always was because the person who starts such a movement that history splits between our history and Watchmen's history with the introduction of Hooded Justice means everything yet we know almost nothing about the person. 

 

The fact that he is a man of color seems almost obvious, despite the fact no way Moore meant him to be a person of color. 

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That discussion around Dr. M being able to appear as human sure makes more sense now. That was a hell of a reveal that I didn’t see coming in the least. When lady Trieu said that someone in Tulsa was Dr. Manhattan, my first thought was her adopted son (the one building a toy castle that resembles the one on Mars).

 

This show really continues to surprise and impress. It lingers on the thematically significant and wastes no time in fooling around with plot. I loved the confrontation with Agent Blake. She’s such a straight shooter.

 

I’m sure we’ll get some answers next week, but I’m pretty curious to find out the specifics of how this whole Dr. Manhattan transformation worked. Sure seems like he didn’t realize who he was, but will he remember who he had been? Does that mean he has more affinity for humans than we’ve been lead to believe?

 

 

I didn’t really buy that the seventh Calvary was any real threat in containing or replicating Dr. Manhattan. Maybe if lady Trieu is behind them I’d buy it, but even Veidt couldn’t really slow him down, and I feel like I remember the book suggesting other attempts at replicating his powers were unsuccessful.

 

I really hope we get some clarity on Veidt’s situation next week. I’m really not sure what to make of the whole trial thing.

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