Movies JJ confirms that Emperor "Sheev" Palpatine is back for Ep IX because hey why not, there is nothing original anymore.

[Bacon]

I have never heard that criticism. All I have heard, and it is what I say as well, that killing Luke was dumb and lame. Which it is.  

[SaysWho?]

9 minutes ago, Mercury33 said:

 

Right, exactly this. The criticism of “Luke wouldn’t have done that” makes no sense. I mean it’s perfectly fine that people don’t like how his arc progressed in the ST. But everything about his character in the ST can be a logical progression of his character in the OT. 

 

I'll never understand, "Why is he so dejected? Luke wouldn't be," as if he got over everything.

 

I'll never understand, "He died wtf!" as if everyone lives in this series.

 

I'll definitely never understand, "WHY DIDN'T HE FIGHT?!"

[Anzo]

In for the annual TLJ debate thread. I just finished a costume from the best Star Wars so there's that. Best 10 seconds of screen time in a movie ever! @ALIEN-gunner knows quality as well. 

 

[CitizenVectron]

Here is how the ST should have started (basically similar but with a few tweaks):

 

• Ben is training with Luke, but Luke has sensed darkness in him for some time, coming from an unknown source.
• Luke finds Rey on Jakku in basically similar circumstances (through Poe, with Finn escaping), wants her to train, but she says no
• Right as he brings her back (and after having a scene with the original three together), the First Order appears, from the Unknown Regions
• They have been rebuilding for decades under Snoke, the heir to Palpatine (and backup plan)
• Kylo betrays Luke, killing Han in the process, and leaves with the FO and Snoke
• Rey agrees to train, but there is no time and she and Poe and Finn go on a mission to some planet to stop the FO

 

That is the first movie. Second could continue in much the same was as TLJ, but it would have felt more natural and earned.

 

 

[Bacon]

What I am most salty about is Finn. I always wanted him to be the main character. Someone who shouldn't be a Jedi becomes a Jedi. I still hope it happens. He is the character I wanted to be a nobody and rise to somebody.  

 

Edit: I can't actually confirm I always wanted him to be the main character. I just recall being disappointed when he wasn't. 

[skillzdadirecta]

12 minutes ago, CitizenVectron said:

Here is how the ST should have started (basically similar but with a few tweaks):

 

• Ben is training with Luke, but Luke has sensed darkness in him for some time, coming from an unknown source.
• Luke finds Rey on Jakku in basically similar circumstances (through Poe, with Finn escaping), wants her to train, but she says no
• Right as he brings her back (and after having a scene with the original three together), the First Order appears, from the Unknown Regions
• They have been rebuilding for decades under Snoke, the heir to Palpatine (and backup plan)
• Kylo betrays Luke, killing Han in the process, and leaves with the FO and Snoke
• Rey agrees to train, but there is no time and she and Poe and Finn go on a mission to some planet to stop the FO

 

That is the first movie. Second could continue in much the same was as TLJ, but it would have felt more natural and earned.

 

 

 

THIS is a text book example of "Head Canon".

[Keyser_Soze]

3 hours ago, LazyPiranha said:

What interesting characters?  You don't know any of them for long enough for them to develop much of a character at all and throughout the entire movie they're making decisions that are absurd.  They're boilerplate archetypes, a scenery chewing Forest Whitaker, and Madds Mikkelsen hardly waiting for the word "cut" before running to the bank with his paycheck.  If someone cares about plot consistency at all than Rogue One takes a hatchet to the storyline.

 

Sometimes a character is interesting just because they have character.

Plenty of people loved Darth Maul but he never said anything and ended up getting cut and half and dying.

The characters in Rogue One were a lot more interesting than girl Anakin and emo Darth Vader and if you want to talk about not much of a character developed how about Snoke? A lot of build up and he was a giant wuss and what's with the idea of making him completely CG? DUMB!

In Rogue One they made absurd decisions because it was their last stand. They gave their lives to save the Rebels.

[skillzdadirecta]

7 minutes ago, Keyser_Soze said:

 

Sometimes a character is interesting just because they have character.

Plenty of people loved Darth Maul but he never said anything and ended up getting cut and half and dying.

The characters in Rogue One were a lot more interesting than girl Anakin and emo Darth Vader and if you want to talk about not much of a character developed how about Snoke? A lot of build up and he was a giant wuss and what's with the idea of making him completely CG? DUMB!

In Rogue One they made absurd decisions because it was their last stand. They gave their lives to save the Rebels.

People loved Darth Maul for the same reason they loved Boba Fett... because they LOOKED COOL. They were mysterious and gave off an air of Bad-assery just by existing. The Rogue One characters? Not so much. How do you waste Donny Yen like that? I've often said that structurally, Rogue One is a mess of a movie and it was clearly fucked with in the edit. The characters in Rogue One are COMPLETELY forgettable and that wasn't by design... you were supposed to feel something for their their sacrifice and nope. You just didn't. So many things wrong with that movie but it got and continues to get a pass on this board for reasons I just don't understand. It did have some of the base space battles in the series, I'll give it that. And Vader's cameo was awesome.

[Remarkableriots]

16 minutes ago, Keyser_Soze said:

 

Sometimes a character is interesting just because they have character.

Plenty of people loved Darth Maul but he never said anything and ended up getting cut and half and dying.

The characters in Rogue One were a lot more interesting than girl Anakin and emo Darth Vader and if you want to talk about not much of a character developed how about Snoke? A lot of build up and he was a giant wuss and what's with the idea of making him completely CG? DUMB!

In Rogue One they made absurd decisions because it was their last stand. They gave their lives to save the Rebels.

Darth Maul survived being cut in half.

[Bacon]

So, what I think is funny about "head canon" is that no one ever uses for other shit that isn't star wars. Oh and you fuckers use it wrong all the time. People need to stop using head canon for ideas that come out after the movie that say the movie would have been better this way over that way. That is NOT head canon. If say, "Oh, I think Birdman should have ended with Michael Keaton's character killing Edward Norton's character. I believe that would have been a better ending" That is not head canon. Head Canon would be, "Oh, I think Keaton's character, after jumping out he window, flew over to Norton's character and killed him with his super powers. Yeah, I believe that is what happened."

 

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=headcanon

Quote

Used by followers of various media of entertainment, such as television shows, movies, books, etc. to note a particular belief which has not been used in the universe of whatever program or story they follow, but seems to make sense to that particular individual, and as such is adopted as a sort of "personal canon". Headcanon may be upgraded to canon if it is incorporated into the program or story's universe.

 

In my headcanon, John and Mary bicker like siblings when they're around each other... They just seem like they're brother and sister to me!

Quote

An idea or opinion about a fictional series (Book, TV, Comic, or otherwise) that is true in one's head, but has not become a canon fact.

 

In my head canon, Jade and Dave from Homestuck are totally in love with each other.

 

https://www.yourdictionary.com/headcanon

Quote

(fandom slang) Elements and interpretations of a fictional universe accepted by an individual fan, but not found within or supported by the official canon.

 

Headcanon is not is not thinking Finn should become a Jedi. Headcanon is not predicting that Finn will become a Jedi. Headcanon is saying Finn is a Jedi. 

[skillzdadirecta]

1 minute ago, Bacon said:

So, what I think is funny about "head canon" is that no one ever uses for other shit that isn't star wars. Oh and you fuckers use it wrong all the time. People need to stop using head canon for ideas that come out after the movie that say the movie would have been better this way over that way. That is NOT head canon. If say, "Oh, I think Birdman should have ended with Michael Keaton's character killing Edward Norton's character. I believe that would have been a better ending" That is not head canon. Head Canon would be, "Oh, I think Keaton's character, after jumping out he window, flew over to Norton's character and killed him with his super powers. Yeah, I believe that is what happened."

 

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=headcanon

 

https://www.yourdictionary.com/headcanon

 

Headcanon is not is not thinking Finn should become a Jedi. Headcanon is not predicting that Finn will become a Jedi. Headcanon is saying Finn is a Jedi. 

 

Headcanon is having a preconceived notion of what an upcoming move should be and then being pissed when the movie doesn't match up to those expectations. Some of it can be based on expectations on where the person thinks the story should go or what it should be, based on trailers and the person trying to fill in blanks and stay ahead of the story, or it could just be fan-fiction that a person pulls literally out of their ass. We ALL do it it a degree especially with highly anticipated genre film series and television shows and not just Star Wars... there's whole YouTube channels and Reddit forums devoted to this shit for Star Wars, Star Trek, Battlestar Galactica (Pretty much anything with a star in the title) Game of Thrones, The MCU, Twilight, Harry Potter and a whole HOST of other shit. The difference is, except for Game of Thrones possibly, the fan bases for those other series don't confuse fan theories and fan fiction with ACTUAL canon and don't resent the films when they don't live up to THEIR expectations. Head canon is thinking that character WOULD NOT CHANGE AT ALL in 30 plus years. So to paraphrase Yoda "The head canon is STRONG with Star Wars fans".

[Mercury33]

40 minutes ago, skillzdadirecta said:

People loved Darth Maul for the same reason they loved Boba Fett... because they LOOKED COOL. They were mysterious and gave off an air of Bad-assery just by existing. The Rogue One characters? Not so much. How do you waste Donny Yen like that? I've often said that structurally, Rogue One is a mess of a movie and it was clearly fucked with in the edit. The characters in Rogue One are COMPLETELY forgettable and that wasn't by design... you were supposed to feel something for their their sacrifice and nope. You just didn't. So many things wrong with that movie but it got and continues to get a pass on this board for reasons I just don't understand. It did have some of the base space battles in the series, I'll give it that. And Vader's cameo was awesome.

 I felt something for them. It’s not their fault your dead inside. 

[TheLeon]

(note, I don't actually care about this, but...) 

 

22 minutes ago, skillzdadirecta said:

 

Headcanon is having a preconceived notion of what an upcoming move should be and then being pissed when the movie doesn't match up to those expectations. Some of it can be based on expectations on where the person thinks the story should go or what it should be, based on trailers and the person trying to fill in blanks and stay ahead of the story, or it could just be fan-fiction that a person pulls literally out of their ass. We ALL do it it a degree especially with highly anticipated genre film series and television shows and not just Star Wars... there's whole YouTube channels and Reddit forums devoted to this shit for Star Wars, Star Trek, Battlestar Galactica (Pretty much anything with a star in the title) Game of Thrones, The MCU, Twilight, Harry Potter and a whole HOST of other shit. The difference is, except for Game of Thrones possibly, the fan bases for those other series don't confuse fan theories and fan fiction with ACTUAL canon and don't resent the films when they don't live up to THEIR expectations. Head canon is thinking that character WOULD NOT CHANGE AT ALL in 30 plus years. So to paraphrase Yoda "The head canon is STRONG with Star Wars fans".

I think that's just called hopes and expectations. I think headcanon is stuff like "Even though it was never stated, I like to think that characters X and Y are gay for each other" or "I've decided that the briefcase in Pulp Fiction is holding _____"

 

[CitizenVectron]

I think it's perfectly fine to say a movie could have been done better, and even giving specific examples. A good example is saying that in the prequels, it would have been better to have the same actor play Anakin over the three movies, in terms of connecting the audience with the character. That's not head canon, that's a valid criticism. TFA and TLJ both have flaws that could have (in retrospect of course) been easily addressed by putting more time into the scripts/outlines. I think (again, in retrospect) it's obvious that rushing to make these movies was a mistake, and that TFA should have been pushed back another year or two, and then have three years between each movie.

[skillzdadirecta]

Granted I don't really care about Head Canon either no matter how you define it. It does get annoying when people use fan theories as justification for their criticisms. There are literally an infinite amount of ways that a story can be told so Monday morning quarterbacking a story that has been told is the least interesting criticism for me personally and I lump all of that stuff in with head canon because I do think that a lot of it is based on fans expectations on where they think the story is going, get wedded to that and then are ultimately let down when the narrative moves in directions they themselves never expected or didn't want.

That said, I DO think that this last trilogy could have benefited from a more planned out approach than what appears to be happening with the films.

[CitizenVectron]

1 minute ago, skillzdadirecta said:

Granted I don't really care about Head Canon either no matter how you define it. It does get annoying when people use fan theories as justification for their criticisms. There are literally an infinite amount of ways that a story can be told so Monday morning quarterbacking a story that has been told is the least interesting criticism for me personally and I lump all of that stuff in with head canon because I do think that a lot of it is based on fans expectations on where they think the story is going, get wedded to that and then are ultimately let down when the narrative moves in directions they themselves never expected or didn't want.

That said, I DO think that this last trilogy could have benefited from a more planned out approach than what appears to be happening with the films.

 

I think it's fair to criticize Lucasfilm/Disney for not giving writers enough time to iron out the new trilogy in the rush to get them to market, even while not getting into specifics. The criticism of "they should have planned it all out" is less fair I think, since not planning them out worked well for the OT. But that can go either way. You want the directors/writers for each movie (if you're doing it that way) to have leeway and their own vision. I think what the movies could have benefited from was at least a plan for major plot elements, and then let the directors do what they want within those constraints. And hey, maybe that is what happened! For all we know, Snoke was intended to be killed in VIII the entire time, but Johnson did it the way he wanted, etc.

[skillzdadirecta]

Just now, CitizenVectron said:

 

I think it's fair to criticize Lucasfilm/Disney for not giving writers enough time to iron out the new trilogy in the rush to get them to market, even while not getting into specifics. The criticism of "they should have planned it all out" is less fair I think, since not planning them out worked well for the OT. But that can go either way. You want the directors/writers for each movie (if you're doing it that way) to have leeway and their own vision. I think what the movies could have benefited from was at least a plan for major plot elements, and then let the directors do what they want within those constraints. And hey, maybe that is what happened! For all we know, Snoke was intended to be killed in VIII the entire time, but Johnson did it the way he wanted, etc.

 

That's pretty much what I meant... we won't know until this last movie. If they stick the landing, cool. If they don't. They may hurt the brand long term for awhile. I'm reserving judgement.

[Spork3245]

This thread turned my head into a cannon; my head has exploded off my body.

[SaysWho?]

9 minutes ago, skillzdadirecta said:

Granted I don't really care about Head Canon either no matter how you define it. It does get annoying when people use fan theories as justification for their criticisms.

 

That's pretty much it. A movie's not bad because, "Why'd they kill this character?" "Why'd this character not get into an epic light saber battle?" But film criticism gets boiled down to complaints about space physics and what story you think is the ideal story.

 

Shit, you can point out plenty of flaws in ROTS, but when I heard, "Why wasn't the Yoda/Palpatine fight more epic?!" on IGN, I didn't even know what to say about that criticism.

[skillzdadirecta]

2 minutes ago, Spork3245 said:

This thread turned my head into a cannon; my head has exploded off my body.

Head Canon has a tendency to blow one's brains out...

[CitizenVectron]

Just now, skillzdadirecta said:

 

That's pretty much what I meant... we won't know until this last movie. If they stick the landing, cool. If they don't. They may hurt the brand long term for awhile. I'm reserving judgement.

 

 

Honestly at the end of the day the ST has been, at the very least, competently directed and filmed (and acted), and will have been pretty good overall (much better than PT). Having said that, I am now more excited about the non-Skywalker stories that are coming, especially from Johnson.

[SaysWho?]

2 minutes ago, CitizenVectron said:

 

 

Honestly at the end of the day the ST has been, at the very least, competently directed and filmed (and acted), and will have been pretty good overall (much better than PT). Having said that, I am now more excited about the non-Skywalker stories that are coming, especially from Johnson.

 

I'd be very disappointed if Episode 9 didn't deliver because I've enjoyed watching Rey, I've enjoyed Finn's transition from coward to someone who wants to fight for something, and I've especially enjoyed having Kylo as a consistent villain that's always there (as opposed to the different villain each movie in the PT) with Driver acting his ass off. But I figure I got two quality movies out of it if so, and Ep 7 -> Ep 8 can stand on its own, imo. 

 

But for the sake of the whole story, I hope it sticks its landing. If not, there's always Rian's movies!

[skillzdadirecta]

23 minutes ago, CitizenVectron said:

 

 

Honestly at the end of the day the ST has been, at the very least, competently directed and filmed (and acted), and will have been pretty good overall (much better than PT). Having said that, I am now more excited about the non-Skywalker stories that are coming, especially from Johnson.

 So am I... this universe is too rich and has too much potential to always be about the Empire vs Rebels or Jedi vs Sith. Don't get me wrong, Jedi are awesome, but there's so much more than can do with this universe. Practically ANYTHING since it's more fantasy than sci-fi.

[Bacon]

The biggest mistake of the ST is the fact that it has anything to do with what came before it except for Lightsabers and space shit. 

[Kal-El814]

4 minutes ago, Bacon said:

The biggest mistake of the ST is the fact that it has anything to do with what came before it except for Lightsabers and space shit. 

There was never, ever a chance that it would be anything else while most of the actors from the original cast were still alive.

[SoberChef]

13 hours ago, Reputator said:

 

Hi, nice to meet you! I'm a card carrying Democrat that hates TLJ.

Ditto!

[Bacon]

2 minutes ago, Kal-El814 said:

There was never, ever a chance that it would be anything else while most of the actors from the original cast were still alive.

I know, but man all the stories that don't involve Skywalkers are just so much better. Like, SWTOR(mmo) has the best Star Wars Universe. I'd love to see more of that kind of Star Wars as a movie. 

[TwinIon]

I used to be the loudest voice in the room for a single, cohesive vision. When something like True Detective was announced as being all written and directed by the same people for it's whole season, I was overjoyed. It turns out, that was a pretty darn good example of what a singular vision can do for a creative work. What it wasn't was any kind of proof that doing so is necessarily better than going one step at a time. I don't have any statistical analysis, but when it comes to art, I don't think such a study would be really helpful anyways.

 

In the end, I don't think that having a giant arc planned out is necessarily better than not having one. You can do one episode at a time and get Godfather 2,  Aliens, or Breaking Bad; alternatively, you can plan a whole storyline out and get the prequel trilogy. The opposite is obviously true as well. If Episode 9 is a failure, I don't think that it will be a failure of vision and planning, it'll be a failure of JJ and his team to make a satisfying movie. If I could go back in time and give someone an extra year to make the sequel trilogy, I wouldn't give it to Kathleen Kennedy before VII, I'd give it to JJ and company after VIII.

 

I think it is interesting that JJ is thinking more about IX as being the conclusion of the whole saga. I think a lot of people are like myself, primarily thinking of XI as an end to the sequel trilogy. A great movie would work as both, but it'll be helpful to go into the film with JJ's intent in mind.

[Keyser_Soze]

42 minutes ago, Spork3245 said:

This thread turned my head into a cannon; my head has exploded off my body.

 

[Reputator]

4 hours ago, Mercury33 said:

 

Right, exactly this. The criticism of “Luke wouldn’t have done that” makes no sense. I mean it’s perfectly fine that people don’t like how his arc progressed in the ST. But everything about his character in the ST can be a logical progression of his character in the OT. 

 

There's no logical explaination behind the sleeping Ben flashback scene. None. The movie does not explain at any point how Luke went from a relentless redeemer, to a scared psychopath. The only explaination anyone has ever offered is, "well, it's been 30 years! People change!"

 

I'm sorry, but no. If that's good enough for you, then fine. But I call that poor storytelling.

[Kal-El814]

1 hour ago, TwinIon said:

I used to be the loudest voice in the room for a single, cohesive vision. When something like True Detective was announced as being all written and directed by the same people for it's whole season, I was overjoyed. It turns out, that was a pretty darn good example of what a singular vision can do for a creative work. What it wasn't was any kind of proof that doing so is necessarily better than going one step at a time. I don't have any statistical analysis, but when it comes to art, I don't think such a study would be really helpful anyways.

 

In the end, I don't think that having a giant arc planned out is necessarily better than not having one. You can do one episode at a time and get Godfather 2,  Aliens, or Breaking Bad; alternatively, you can plan a whole storyline out and get the prequel trilogy. The opposite is obviously true as well. If Episode 9 is a failure, I don't think that it will be a failure of vision and planning, it'll be a failure of JJ and his team to make a satisfying movie. If I could go back in time and give someone an extra year to make the sequel trilogy, I wouldn't give it to Kathleen Kennedy before VII, I'd give it to JJ and company after VIII.

 

I think it is interesting that JJ is thinking more about IX as being the conclusion of the whole saga. I think a lot of people are like myself, primarily thinking of XI as an end to the sequel trilogy. A great movie would work as both, but it'll be helpful to go into the film with JJ's intent in mind.

This is a great post.

 

3 hours ago, Keyser_Soze said:

if you want to talk about not much of a character developed how about Snoke? A lot of build up and he was a giant wuss

In what way did Snoke receive “a lot of build up”? He had equivalent / less buildup than Palp did before his appearance in Jedi. And how was he more of a wuss than Palp, who shot some lightning and then got literally dunked by a dying, one handed man on life support?

 

11 minutes ago, Reputator said:

There's no logical explaination behind the sleeping Ben flashback scene. None. The movie does not explain at any point how Luke went from a relentless redeemer, to a scared psychopath. The only explaination anyone has ever offered is, "well, it's been 30 years! People change!"

This is explained by the characters. I 100% get not LIKING it, but the characters involved literally say aloud why their reactions weren’t logical. And Luke was never a psychopath? What? He straight up says he probed Ben’s mind, was horrified with what he saw, freaked out for a fraction of a second, popped his saber, regretted its immediately, but the damage was done.

[Brian]

I’m ready for Star Wars Ghost Wars Trilogy. Maybe we can finally get a good yoda lightsaber fight. 

[SaysWho?]

1 hour ago, Kal-El814 said:

 

In what way did Snoke receive “a lot of build up”? He had equivalent / less buildup than Palp did before his appearance in Jedi. And how was he more of a wuss than Palp, who shot some lightning and then got literally dunked by a dying, one handed man on life support

 

Neither Palp nor Snoke had character development; Vader and Kylo are the villains in their respective trilogies with development. Both of them were mysterious, powerful "big baddies" but were not the main focus of either movie. And that's fine: both served their purpose in progressing the other villains' storyline, in Kylo's case solidifying himself as a villain.

 

It's honestly fucking fantastic.

[skillzdadirecta]

1 hour ago, Reputator said:

 

There's no logical explaination behind the sleeping Ben flashback scene. None. The movie does not explain at any point how Luke went from a relentless redeemer, to a scared psychopath. The only explaination anyone has ever offered is, "well, it's been 30 years! People change!"

 

I'm sorry, but no. If that's good enough for you, then fine. But I call that poor storytelling.

 

What in that scene gave you the impression that Luke became a "scared psychopath"? The scene is shown from both of their perspectives and Ben, who was already being tempted by the Dark side via Snoke, awoke and saw Luke just as he himself was having a moment of doubt and fear at what Ben was potentially becoming. Saying that Luke became a raving lunatic in that moment misses the point of the scene.

[Man_of_X]

18 hours ago, LazyPiranha said:

 

Anyone who doesn't like TLJ for plot reasons but likes Rogue One must have been sleepwalking through that movie.  Remember when the blind samurai and his buddy go along on a suicide mission with total strangers they know nothing about and everyone is just kind of cool with that?  Air tight plotting right there.  Let's not forget that they end the movie in a way where the start of A New Hope makes zero sense at all.

 

"Yeah, this is a diplomatic mission bruh"

 

"Bitch I just watched you take off five minutes ago.  I was behind you the whole time."

 

You're confusing really enjoying the movie to equating it to being cinematic perfection.

 

If that's all you have that's going to ruin a Star Wars movie for you then maybe you shouldn't watch them.

 

I love the fuck out of Star Wars, but let's be honest, there hasn't been a single one of these movies that's reached any kind of high level cinematic status.

 

But Star Wars is fucking cool as shit and there are great parts to every single movie that they've ever released.  Fact.