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The Official Thread of Systemic Racism


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On 6/4/2020 at 9:45 PM, Emperor Diocletian II said:

 

 

After seeing the video of him bleeding out on the ground, I have been thinking about David Dorn's murder for the last two days and attempting to frame it within the overall context of the current situation.  I freely admit that my white perspective is inherently incomplete and inherently flawed so my thoughts should in no way be intended or construed to be anything more than my (ultimately futile) attempts at "understanding", if such a thing is even possible (and  it probably isn't).  For me, David Dorn is just as much a victim of the systemic, structural devaluation of the lives of African-Americans within the greater society as George Floyd, David McAtee, Breonna Taylor, and Ahmaud Arbery.  His name should be mentioned alongside those names in any recitation of the deceased.

 

Let's get this out of the way first: the white commentators on the right who are attempting (and largely failing, for better or for  worse) to turn Dorn's murder into a cause celebre don't give one damn about David Dorn in death in much the same way as they sure as hell didn't give a damn about him in life.  Their sole objective is to use Dorn's murder as an all-too-convenient prop to discredit the entire law enforcement reform movement.  When a degenerate like Ian Miles Cheong "sincerely" tweets "David Dorn. Say his name.", their game is neither particularly clever, interesting, nor creative.  In fact, it's rather transparently pathetic, so let's not waste one more moment on this.

 

For the sake of argument, let's assume that David Dorn's killer was also African-American.  The unfortunate reality of American crime is that this isn't an unreasonable assumption as we all know that most crime is intraracial in nature and the area of St. Louis where he was murdered is predominantly African-American.  So, it's "reasonable" (a word that seems mockingly, woefully inadequate to use) that a young African-American man shot and murdered an older African-American man in the midst of a civil disturbance precipitated by yet another murder of an African-American man by a Caucasian-American police officer.

 

The media has consistently used the word "senseless" to describe Dorn's killing.  Over and over again, that word can be found in every television report and in every written story about this event.  It's not a bad word to use, because on the surface level it describes the act fairly well.  But that's only on the surface level, and scratch below that surface level and you'll find that the crime is ANYTHING BUT "senseless".  The crime makes FAR TOO MUCH sense when one goes just a little deeper into why someone would commit such a "nihilistic" (a VASTLY better word to use than "senseless") act of violence

 

That nihilism doesn't exist in a vacuum -- it has to come from somewhere.  It comes from an acceptance that his life doesn't matter because my life doesn't matter.  My life doesn't matter because society both tells and shows me that my life doesn't matter.  Society shows me that my life doesn't matter because the people whose job it is to protect society treat me like at best like an enemy and at worst like a sub-human.  Society shows me that my life doesn't matter because it can't be bothered to ensure that I receive a proper education.  Society shows me that my life doesn't matter because the only economic opportunities available to me are either menial labor or the "informal" economy.  Society shows me that my life doesn't matter because the only "legitimate" businesses in my neighborhood are a payday loan operation and a liquor store.  I can go on and on and on, and all of that is by design because it serves the purposes of the overall power structure to maintain a significant African-American underclass for social, political, and economic purposes.

 

With all that and more, how could someone NOT become a "nihilist"?  The more someone is subjected to psychological trauma -- and make no mistake, growing up African-American in many parts of the United States is VERY much a traumatic experience due to violence (the broadest sense of that word which encompasses physical, economic, social, etc. trauma) -- the more they begin to lose their sense of self-identity and self-worth.  Not only that, but their "circle of empathy" shrinks accordingly and may disappear entirely.  At that point, all that is left is a "depraved" form of nihilism where the id is dominant.  There is absolutely nothing "senseless" about this  in the least.  

 

The bottom-line is that David Dorn's killer pulled the trigger, but it was the ingrained structural prejudices of American society that effectively loaded the magazine into the  weapon, pulled back the slide to chamber the round, handed the gun to that young man, and guided his hand to point it at David Dorn.  At the very least, we're accessories to the murder of David Dorn just like those three other cops are accessories to the murder of George Floyd.

 

God damn us.

So i've been sitting with this post for a couple of days and I've been trying to collect and organize my thoughts so that I could best respond. I appreciate the thought put into this post @Emperor Diocletian II and I didn't want to just respond with a clever quip or snarky comment. You asked the question that with all of the trials and tribulations and systemic inequities that black people face "how could someone NOT become nihilistic?" the term you are using to describe the apathy that you see in people that would commit the types of acts like David Dorn's murder. I can answer... with a TREMENDOUS amount of effort and a strong familial and communal support system. Black people are not inherently traumatized, pathological or prone to acts of violence for any reason, nurture or nature.

 

Racists would have you believe that black people commit more crime because we are just inherently violent... savages that the white man brought from an untamed land and "civilized" as best he could and that it's in black people's best interest that the status quo be maintained for their own good. They also believe that if it wasn't for "outside agitators" I.E. other whites or even worse, JEWS, that black people would be happily content to stay in their place and everyone would be happy.

 

On the opposite end of the spectrum, you have white liberals who can often fall into the trap of saying black people may be more violent, but it's because of the circumstances that they have been subjected to. If they are pathological, it's because they have been put into situations that are beyond their control so any criminal behavior that they may exhibit can be explained and excused by circumstance. 

 

What both of these viewpoints do is rob black people of any intricacy and agency in their actions and fates. Nurture and nature play a part in the development of any human being and black people definitely are often born and raised in more difficult situations than white people but that does not absolve us of knowing right from wrong. Black people cannot and have never been able to afford being nihilists. There's no way we would have endured slavery, or Jim Crow, or the Civil Rights movement or just getting through the day if we succumbed to nihilism on a wide scale. We wouldn't be out there protesting in the streets (largely peacefully) if we were a bunch of collective cynics and nihilists.

 

Don't get me wrong, it's tempting to succumb to a nihilistic viewpoint growing up black in America especially if you're on the lower end of the economic scale. But this is nothing new for black people in America and culturally we have come up with ways to cope and endure... our music, our dances and artistic endeavors, our religious practices, our activist and militant groups, our families, hell even our Gangs... they are all coping mechanisms and support systems for blacks in America and we lean on them because we know that if we did not do that, WE WOULD NOT SURVIVE. We HAVE to keep fighting and pushing for a better tomorrow as trite as that sounds, not just for our own survival but for the survival of the generation that is coming behind us. Earlier in this thread, I posted this video

 

 

I wonder how many people here watched this video and understood what was happening and the raw emotion and vulnerability that is rarely seen in public from black men. The oldest dude was frustrated and literally says "I'm ready to die" but he's not coming from a place of hopelessness. He's ready to take a stand and potentially risk his life because from his perspective, we've exhausted all other avenues and change, if it's going to come, will require the being willing to make the ultimate sacrifice. What you see here in this video is anger, frustration and sadness but what you do NOT see is hopelessness or nihilism.'"You're going to be doing the same thing I'm doing 10 years from now... come up with a better way" That's not hopelessness or despair. That's preparation. That's passing the baton. That's an acknowledgement that the fight will continue but the fight is WORTH FIGHTING.

 

So what does any of this have to do with the post I'm responding to? Well it's basically me saying that yes, all of the conditions that black people live or unfair and are there to keep us in check and to subjugate us, all of this is true. But having said that, it does NOT rob of us of personal responsibility and decency. Who ever pulled the trigger and killed David Dorn may have been a product of their environment, or they may have been a crackbaby... who knows? What is known is that THEY are responsible for that murder and that unless there was some cognitive impairment that they suffer from, they KNEW it was wrong. They person filming the video knew it was not only wrong but that it was ridiculous. That this elder in the community would lose his life for a fuckin' TV and he kept saying it over and over. This man wasn't killed by looters desperate for food to feed their families. He was killed by someone looking to steal a TV assuming that that is what happened because I wouldn't be surprised by anything in today's day and age. Nihilism isn't rampant in the black community because if it was, things would be a LOT different. We haven't given up, we're enduring... It's a struggle and it ain't easy, but we ARE doing it. 

 

We can decry the inequities of American society regarding black people and other minorities without absolving them of clear wrong doing... the two are not mutually exclusive, opposing thoughts to have and one does not invalidate the other. It's not an either or proposition. Black people want safe and lawful communities too. We want to able to call the police that WE pay for and not feel like suspects ourselves . Despite what folks on the Right believe, Black people don't want preferential treatment, just equitable treatment. We want to be seen as fully formed human beings... James Baldwin can say it better than I can and he said it over 50 years ago

 

 

I pasted the video at the relevant point I was trying to highlight but I hope you guys find the time to watch it in it's entirety at some point. I let it play while I was playing a game the other day.So those are my thoughts and I hope I was able to articulate them clearly. It's hard to have these conversations through a screen and I look forward to meeting some of you guys in person at some point especially you @Emperor Diocletian II and throwing back a beer or two (or whatever it is you fascists drink :p) It's long over due... and be on the lookout for a new Twitter follower soon. My presence on other forms of social media will be increasing soon. Thanks again for providing this forum and thanks for engaging in this conversation. 

 

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56 minutes ago, Littleronin said:

I know if Fallon, NV there is towns of fear mongering and threats of violence against any protesters (mainly the consensus is there is no such thing as a peaceful protest for BLM causes) that may happen in town. Also anybody that has be trying to organize a protest their posts almost get instantly deleted from the Facebook groups. Big change from when people wanted to protest our governor's lockdown.  

There's been an increase in protests in small towns and red states across the country. That IS happening.

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They even protested in my town a few nights back and it looked like they had a few thousand people in around city hall. I’m not a big city, but are constantly listed as the #1 or #2 medium size city to live in all of Canada. We are also a pretty white town, but diversity has grown substantially over the past 20yrs. Yet we are very low on crime and murders, like 1 or 2 a year on average. Still it was surprising, too me, to see such a high turn out here.
 

so yeah, I do believe this will turn into actual change happening. 
 

 

still gonna have the assholes out there, as that won’t change with people like Trump in “control” My old neighbour and childhood friend is sort of against the movement and repeats Trump talking points. His sister is married to a black man and they have 2 lovely twin boys. So people are on her brothers Facebook page and letting him have it and to fucking think for himself and respect what his brother-in-law and sister are fighting for. 

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21 minutes ago, skillzdadirecta said:

...

It's hard to have these conversations through a screen and I look forward to meeting some of you guys in person at some point especially you @Emperor Diocletian II and throwing back a beer or two (or whatever it is you fascists drink :p) It's long over due... and be on the lookout for a new Twitter follower soon. My presence on other forms of social media will be increasing soon. Thanks again for providing this forum and thanks for engaging in this conversation. 

 

 

I have never read a post on this forum or on IGN before this that has moved me the way your post has. I have a lot to learn. And I want to know what I can do. I'm trying to find my purpose in this fight--because it isn't to take the lead and it isn't to solve it myself. But I know I have at least some small responsibility even if all it is that I do is change how I see the world and the people in it. 

 

I want to be your real life friend. Thank you for these words. 

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59 minutes ago, CayceG said:

 

I have never read a post on this forum or on IGN before this that has moved me the way your post has. I have a lot to learn. And I want to know what I can do. I'm trying to find my purpose in this fight--because it isn't to take the lead and it isn't to solve it myself. But I know I have at least some small responsibility even if all it is that I do is change how I see the world and the people in it. 

 

I want to be your real life friend. Thank you for these words. 

:hug:

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5 hours ago, MarSolo said:

 

 

"If I mention Star Wars, it'll make me relatable to the humans with souls." 

 

4 hours ago, PaladinSolo said:

Can we launch this family into the sun now?

 

Is that an official post by her page? 

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58 minutes ago, 69los said:

 

 

 

Definately a charge.

 

Clearly had their feet set. Not his fault the moron taking it to the rim was a pansy.

 

Keep am eye out for the police report that seven huge black guys beat the cop up and that's totally where his bruises came from.

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18 hours ago, skillzdadirecta said:

Did they photoshop a sign in?

beyond a shadow of a doubt lol

14 hours ago, Brick said:

Is that an official post by her page? 

she denied making or posting it. unfortunate timing aside, images like that have always gone viral as long as the internet has been a thing. she might have to endure a bit of false branding for a while </3

 

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I've been seeing a lot of people online saying to abolish police. Defunding I get because you can redirect those funds into other social and community services to help prevent things getting so bad that people turn to crime in the first place (as well as putting it into other things like infrastructure, healthcare, etc.), but to get rid of the police entirely I'm not so sure so maybe someone can help explain the reasoning behind it. 

 

I get people will say, "I know what you're thinking, 'if we get rid of police, who will stop bank robbers', but if we redirect assets to address poverty people don't feel like they need to rob a bank to survive in the first place", and yeah now community outreach programs, and initiatives to tackle the reasons people turn to crime, and making different organizations that can deal with things that the police shouldn't really be dealing with I get. However, there's always going to be crime, and criminals. Sure police don't have the best record when helping sexual assault victims, but what do we do with the actual predators/abusers? What do with people who commit homicide, or decide to take hostages? What if there's a serial killer on the loose? New organizations could be made to help with sexual assault victims, and police don't always believe when someone says there's a serial killer on the loose and definitely need to do a better job (Canada has had two recent cases of that in the past couple decades with Bruce McArthur and Robert Pickton), but again what happens to those truly bad people out there that we do need to remove from society? 

 

I'm not being snarky with this, I'm genuinely asking, and if anyone can seriously help me understand, or show me resources that explain it well I'd appreciate it. If we can come up with a better solution to police than the police then great, I'm all for it as things should always be improved, and we shouldn't be afraid of thinking up better systems just because the one we have right now works (for example democracy is the best political system, but why have we stopped trying to think up an even better one?), but right now, even with all the problems that need to be fixed with police forces, it seems to me we'll still need the police even if we just need to fix it first. 

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No need to defund the Police... reform them and reduce their budgets and access to military style equipment? yes.   Oh and get rid of douches like THIS guy.

 

Quote

In 2007, a group of five black police officers, each with more than a dozen years on the job, sued Minneapolis' police department for racial discrimination. Officer Medaria Arradondo and his colleagues stated in the suit that they had faced retaliation since joining the department, like in 1992, when they received a letter from interoffice mail signed with "KKK."Among other things, the black cops' suit claimed that white officer Bob Kroll, who joined the police force the same year as Arradondo, called then-US Congressman Keith Ellison, who is a black Muslim, a "terrorist." But thirteen years later, Kroll and Arradondo are at odds again over racism. Arradondo now serves as Minneapolis' police chief, whose officer was shown killing George Floyd in a now-notorious video that sparked a nationwide uprising. And Kroll is the head of the local police union that has defended the officers involved in Floyd's death. 

 

Arradondo and Kroll represent two sides of a police force grappling with decades of brutal episodes and just as many years of strained relations with black residents. Their ongoing headbutting also reveals an exceptional aspect of the labor movement in the US.  Progressives laud unions as the voice of the America's increasingly black and brown working class. But criminal justice experts told Business Insider that police unions protect aggressive cops, buttressing the underlying system of police brutality in the US. This MPD story is a case study in how a city's police union leader can disregard the actions of a chief that are designed to crack down on bad cops. 

 

Police Unions are a HUGE part of the problem and this is just now coming to light.

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Randomly an old Daily Show (Jon Stewart-era) clip popped up on my YouTube feed last night. I decided to watch it. It was about Eric Garner... the parallels between that situation and this one are just so incredibly striking. What stood out was, if not for the nation-wide protests, the same excuses would have been used. With Garner they said “he had asthma”, “he was obese”, “unhealthy”, etc, and “that’s why he died” - with George Floyd they were seemingly prepared to argue he only died because he had COVID (the outrage made that moot, thankfully).

 

Anyway, here’s the clip. It’s just kinda crazy to watch this now with the current push for change. 

 

 

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11 hours ago, skillzdadirecta said:

Black people are not inherently traumatized, pathological or prone to acts of violence for any reason, nurture or nature.


This reminded me of something my granny has said a lot over the years

 

“Even well meaning people will tell you black folk are broken, but there is nothing wrong with us.”

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11 minutes ago, thewhyteboar said:

Zero good apples. 

 The Fire Department was out there too... know why? THEIR UNIONS. This is why those 57 members resigned from the emergency response unit.

 

https://www.wkbw.com/news/local-news/exclusive-two-buffalo-police-ert-members-say-resignation-was-not-in-solidarity-with-suspended-officers

 

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The officers we spoke with said the Buffalo Police Benevolent Association’s statement asserting all 57 officers resigned from ERT in a "show of support” with the two officers that were suspended without pay is not true. “I don’t understand why the union said it’s a thing of solidarity. I think it sends the wrong message that ‘we’re backing our own’ and that’s not the case,” said one officer with whom we spoke. “We quit because our union said [they] aren’t legally backing us anymore. So why would we stand on a line for the City with no legal backing if something [were to] happen? Has nothing to do with us supporting,” said another.

 

https://buffalonews.com/2020/06/05/57-members-of-buffalo-police-riot-response-team-resign/

 

Quote

The union representing Buffalo police officers told its rank-and-file members Friday that the union would no longer pay for legal fees to defend police officers related to the protests. The union is upset with the treatment of the two officers who were suspended.

 

I'm usually pro-union in most instances but the unions for cops are a large part why it's so tough for departments to get rid of bad cops. Until THEY come around, it will continue to be very hard to enact meaningful change in Law Enforcement.

 

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24 minutes ago, skillzdadirecta said:

 The Fire Department was out there too... know why? THEIR UNIONS. This is why those 57 members resigned from the emergency response unit.

 

https://www.wkbw.com/news/local-news/exclusive-two-buffalo-police-ert-members-say-resignation-was-not-in-solidarity-with-suspended-officers

 

 

https://buffalonews.com/2020/06/05/57-members-of-buffalo-police-riot-response-team-resign/

 

 

I'm usually pro-union in most instances but the unions for cops are a large part why it's so tough for departments to get rid of bad cops. Until THEY come around, it will continue to be very hard to enact meaningful change in Law Enforcement.

 

I posted this to the discord and I thought you might like to read it

 

Collective Bargaining Rights and Police Misconduct: Evidence from Florida

https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3095217

Quote

. The effect of collective bargaining rights is concentrated among SOs that subsequently adopted collective bargaining agreements, and the timing of the adoption of these agreements is associated with increases in violent misconduct.

 

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The "was it technically tear gas?"debate reminds me of the torture/enhanced interrogation debate, where Bush administration officials would go on TV and say stuff like, "No, we don't actually ram prisoners' heads through walls, we use a special technique known as 'walling'".

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  • Jason changed the title to The Official Thread of Systemic Racism

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