The Official Thread of Systemic Racism

[Chris-]

You can support unionized labor and also oppose how certain unions operate, those aren't mutually exclusive positions. 

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, Chris- said:

You can support unionized labor and also oppose how certain unions operate, those aren't mutually exclusive positions. 

Correct, which is what makes that dopey thread so dopey!

[b_m_b_m_b_m]

15 minutes ago, sblfilms said:

Being a BAD labor union doesn’t make you not one. They absolutely rely on strength in numbers to protect the interests of the members of their union.

Sorry if you hurt the overall movement you should be kicked out of the movement!

[b_m_b_m_b_m]

It's the difference between working with management and capital, and working for them.

[Ghost_MH]

1 minute ago, sblfilms said:

Being a BAD labor union doesn’t make you not one. They absolutely rely on strength in numbers to protect the interests of the members of their union.

 

The balance with police unions is completely broken, though. Imagine a company where the CEO, president, all of HR, the auditors, all of management, and every individual contributor was also a member of the same union fighting for the same benefits. How would that even work? There is no way that union wouldn't become dysfunctional the first time it came into negotiations. Yet that's how police unions operate. Nobody can convince me that these unions report to and are accountable to the cities and towns they operate out of.

[b_m_b_m_b_m]

They're not a bad acting union, they're a good, functional union (in that they forcefully and unapologetically fight for their members) where they differ is that they have the power of the state (and capital) behind them. Their actions do not align with the goals of teachers, nurses, mine workers, etc. That's why they don't belong in the American federation of labor. 

 

That said, they still deserve a union, as do all workers. They may not have solidarity with others, but an effort to weaken unions anywhere threatens workers everywhere. That doesn't mean you belong in the big club though!

[mclumber1]

35 minutes ago, LazyPiranha said:

Why is it so few people are capable of understanding that something can be good overall, but not good in every situation?

 

Unions and union protections would do wonders in many corners of America right now because we have a massive problem of workers having little or no protection and employers having all of the power.  Is that true of EVERY profession?  No.  Can strong unions be used for bad purposes?  Yes.

 

Unions shouldn't exist with government employment.  

[b_m_b_m_b_m]

Wrong.

[LazyPiranha]

Yeah there’s no reason they can’t.  It’s not like the government can’t also screw its employees.  

[mclumber1]

2 minutes ago, b_m_b_m_b_m said:

Wrong.

 

Right.

 

Unions should expect and demand honest negotiations from the employer.  There should be a back and forth that takes into consideration the treatment of the employees, as well as the financial health of the company.  

 

That back and forth is largely missing with government unions.  Who is the union negotiating with?  Governments have essentially unlimited money.  If they need more, they raise taxes, so there is no effective push back against union demands.  

[sexy_shapiro]

Teachers absolutely should have unions.

[Chris-]

This is just that gotcha comic but with unions so can we please stop this right now 

[Guest]

1 minute ago, mclumber1 said:

 

Right.

 

Unions should expect and demand honest negotiations from the employer.  There should be a back and forth that takes into consideration the treatment of the employees, as well as the financial health of the company.  

 

That back and forth is largely missing with government unions.  Who is the union negotiating with?  Governments have essentially unlimited money.  If they need more, they raise taxes, so there is no effective push back against union demands.  

In what world do most government agencies have unlimited resources?

[b_m_b_m_b_m]

4 minutes ago, mclumber1 said:

 

Right.

 

Unions should expect and demand honest negotiations from the employer.  There should be a back and forth that takes into consideration the treatment of the employees, as well as the financial health of the company.  

 

That back and forth is largely missing with government unions.  Who is the union negotiating with?  Governments have essentially unlimited money.  If they need more, they raise taxes, so there is no effective push back against union demands.  

Spoken like someone who had never paid attention to union negotiations with local government. Unions are well aware of the financial and political situations of their employers! 

 

When times are tough, the union can negotiate higher healthcare costs, increased pension contributions, etc by their members instead of job cuts. I've seen it happen! That's what a union can get you.

[mclumber1]

1 minute ago, sblfilms said:

In what world do most government agencies have unlimited resources?

 

When they can raise taxes to cover the budget.  Or, in the case of the federal government, print money.  

 

Ford cannot realistically raise the price of each Mustang $10k (or whatever) to cover the increased financial burden of union demands.  So they negotiate and hopefully meet somewhere in the middle. 

[sexy_shapiro]

Also,  I’m not sure if it’s effective to have this both be the racism and protesting thread. Maybe have a separate protesting thread?

[mclumber1]

5 minutes ago, sexy_shapiro said:

Teachers absolutely should have unions.

 

Teachers need protections, but they don't necessarily need unions. 

 

Admittedly, most of the protections all workers now receive are from the hard work of unions over the last 150 years.  That's good!  But those protections are now codified into law and government regulations.  Much of what the unions fought for is now standard, whether you work for a union or not.  

[Kal-El814]

8 minutes ago, sblfilms said:

In what world do most government agencies have unlimited resources?

 

Libertopia.

[b_m_b_m_b_m]

https://www.thedrive.com/news/26727/tesla-had-3-times-as-many-osha-violations-as-the-10-largest-us-plants-combined

 

Unions change the culture of the companies they work for, for better safety, regardless of the laws on the books.

 

Quote

While the number of active workers may be more than any other manufacturer who produces cars in the US, Tesla has seemingly also discovered that more employees mean more risk to injury that needs to be stymied. In fact, data collected by Forbes shows that Tesla has accumulated more than three times the number of Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA) violations that its top 10 competitors amassed from 2014-2018.

https://www.technologyreview.com/2018/04/16/143870/tesla-says-its-factory-is-saferbut-it-left-injuries-off-the-books/

Quote

Last April, Tarik Logan suffered debilitating headaches from the fumes of a toxic glue he had to use at the plant. He texted his mom: “I’m n hella pain foreal something ain’t right.”

The searing pain became so unbearable he couldn’t work, and it plagued him for weeks.

But Logan’s inhalation injury, as it was diagnosed, never made it onto the official injury logs that state and federal law requires companies to keep. Neither did reports from other factory workers of sprains, strains and repetitive stress injuries from piecing together Tesla’s sleek cars.

Instead, company officials labeled the injuries personal medical issues or minor incidents requiring only first aid, according to internal company records obtained by Reveal.

Undercounting injuries is one symptom of a more fundamental problem at Tesla: The company has put its manufacturing of electric cars above safety concerns, according to five former members of its environment, health and safety team who left the company last year. That, they said, has put workers unnecessarily in harm’s way.

To act like the laws and regulations on the books is the end all be all for workers is fucking stupid, and shows a real commitment to hackery and a denial of reality.

 

And I have friends who are safety managers who say that OHSHA enforcement under Trump is...well...lacking. and this matches reporting on the subject

 

As for relating this back to the thread at hand: who do you think disproportionately works in unsafe places for substandard wages without unions?

[Guest]

24 minutes ago, mclumber1 said:

 

When they can raise taxes to cover the budget.  Or, in the case of the federal government, print money.  

 

Ford cannot realistically raise the price of each Mustang $10k (or whatever) to cover the increased financial burden of union demands.  So they negotiate and hopefully meet somewhere in the middle. 

Setting tax rates is significantly more difficult for most governments than setting prices are for businesses.

 

As an example, school districts in most states have to get voter approval for increasing tax rates.

[mclumber1]

5 minutes ago, sblfilms said:

Setting tax rates is significantly more difficult for most governments than setting prices are for businesses.

 

As an example, school districts in most states have to get voter approval for increasing tax rates.

 

Is it more difficult though?  For instance, in 2012 school bond and tax measures were passed by voters nationwide in nearly 3/4 of all instances. It varies from state to state on exactly where the revenue comes from of course on how schools are funded and how teachers are paid.  

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, mclumber1 said:

 

Is it more difficult though?  For instance, in 2012 school bond and tax measures were passed by voters nationwide in nearly 3/4 of all instances. It varies from state to state on exactly where the revenue comes from of course on how schools are funded and how teachers are paid.  

Yes, it requires often years long processes to even get to the vote. Schools districts have to get their proposals incredibly tight if they want any shot at passing. And the consequences of failing are substantial.

[mclumber1]

1 minute ago, sblfilms said:

Yes, it requires often years long processes to even get to the vote. Schools districts have to get their proposals incredibly tight if they want any shot at passing. And the consequences of failing are substantial.

 

I don't disagree.  But the districts are so successful at getting these measures passed, because what choice do the residents have? You either vote for the measure, or you vote against it and have teachers laid off and/or school construction not occur.  When voters are guilted into accepting budget increases, they will generally approve those increases. 

[GeneticBlueprint]

 

 

[mclumber1]

4 minutes ago, GeneticBlueprint said:

 

 

 

The Feds have no authority to police outside of their own jurisdictions (IE federal property and federal crimes).  This is a good sign and an embarrassment for Trump. 

[Jason]

 

[CitizenVectron]

10 minutes ago, mclumber1 said:

 

The Feds have no authority to police outside of their own jurisdictions (IE federal property and federal crimes).  This is a good sign and an embarrassment for Trump. 

 

So, Pence may have agreed, but:

 

 

 

[Guest]

10 minutes ago, mclumber1 said:

 

I don't disagree.  But the districts are so successful at getting these measures passed, because what choice do the residents have? You either vote for the measure, or you vote against it and have teachers laid off and/or school construction not occur.  When voters are guilted into accepting budget increases, they will generally approve those increases. 

This is sooooooo wrong. School districts bring tax increases that are typically well below what they need because the proposals need to be bulletproof. Business can change prices, change compensation, distribute less profit to owners, all whenever they want.

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

40 minutes ago, GeneticBlueprint said:

 

 

OLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLO

 

Governor Brown, I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you if you actually believe that!

[b_m_b_m_b_m]

44 minutes ago, Jason said:

 

The most polarizing man on the planet coming out against fair housing: probably a good thing

[GeneticBlueprint]

56 minutes ago, Emperor Diocletian II said:

OLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLO

 

Governor Brown, I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you if you actually believe that!

 

Right. But on the other hand...

 

1 hour ago, CitizenVectron said:

 

So, Pence may have agreed, but:

 

 

 

 

So they probably left at least 20 minutes before this tweet.

[stepee]

1 hour ago, Jason said:

 

 

wow the president is a fucking piece of shit

[thewhyteboar]

 

[CitizenVectron]

 

[Spawn_of_Apathy]

12 hours ago, b_m_b_m_b_m said:

 

A ticket?!

 

they could have wrote her a ticket on the street. That’s how tickets are issued. You dont abduct people like the Gestapo. 
 

But De Blaiso says NY won’t allow the feds to do this. So I guess this was all our imagination, and NYC cops didn’t rush in hold the crowd back.