General Gaming Elden Ring - Information Thread, update (02/21): Shadow of the Erdtree DLC "Collector's Edition Messmer the Impaler Statue" trailer

[SimpleG]

2 hours ago, skillzdadirecta said:

But the better question I always have for folks is why do you keep playing these games if you don't like them? I really don't understand that. There are plenty of games and series that aren't for me for one reason or another but I don't actively resent them because of that. It seems like a lot of Souls non-fans are upset because the games aren't what they think they should be because they just can't experience them the way the gamers who put the time into them can. Sekiro became quite easy and challenging for me once it clicked with me on how to play it. Someone in this thread said that they relaized these games just aren't for them and they accepted that. I think a lot of gamers will save themselves a lot of unnecesary frustration (and money) if they just do the same 

I have the same question.

I dont read books iam not interested in. I dont watch movies that I know I wont like. Everyone should dabble into the unknown to broaden themselves but I know that no matter how many western novels I read I will never enjoy it.

Sekiro was the first From game I walked away from. I didnt like the world, the lack of builds, pretty much everything. After a few hours I noped out and wished everyone else playing best of luck. 

[Bacon]

I mean, with all games with stat points, it is always blind unless you use a guide. Plus, one of the best builds in the entire series is just going STR and DEX. You learn very quickly that you need STR with big slow weapons and DEX for small fast weapons. Seems pretty basic if have ever played a melee build in any RPG. A magic build might be a be more convoluted with how they handle spells and that you still need to smack things with weapons at the start of the game. And like, that's just the nature of not knowing what weapons you'll get down the line. You can't prepare to use the moonlight great sword if you don't know about it. Does it suck? Yeah, maybe, but that's just how it goes in RPGs where you don't know what weapons or spells you can obtain down the road. It's what makes them so replayable as well. 

[Moa]

New player: "the souls games are too hard and I dont like it." 

Soulsbro: "they're actually very easy and you can beat them with just fists."

New player: "ok, so what do you like about them." 

Soulsbro: "games these days are too easy, I find the additional challenge rewarding l." 

 

[Bacon]

I don't think the Souls games are particularly easy. I'm actually slightly worried that From is going to be annoying with their difficulty and make the majority of bosses as fast pace as the average Sekiro boss. I also feel like "trash mobs" have become way too annoying. Many more "elite" versions of them. I'd like it if things were brought back to DS1 levels. 

[skillzdadirecta]

3 hours ago, Moa said:

New player: "the souls games are too hard and I dont like it." 

Soulsbro: "they're actually very easy and you can beat them with just fists."

New player: "ok, so what do you like about them." 

Soulsbro: "games these days are too easy, I find the additional challenge rewarding l." 

 

 

 

 

None of the statements you posted contradict each other in the least.  You get the idea... any game can become easier with practice. These games are no different. Unlike most games today, they require you to learn how to actually play them in order to advance and put forth more effort than just pushing forward on the controller and pressing a button prompt every now and then.  Are the game challenging? yes. Are they unfailry hard and impossible to beat? No not at all. I would say these games are easier for the average gamer than jumping into a competitive match of COD or some other shooter where you're playing against hopped up teenagers with the reflexes of cyborg ninja cats. THAT shit is unfair 

 

 

[Bacon]

If those videos were an example of how they are easy that is silly. That's just player skill. If you are already able to beat the game all you are doing is using a different controller with limitations. Anyone can learn to to that. 

[Dodger]

I mean there are literally people beating these games with no leveling and no upgrading also doing no damage boss fights.
 

Anyway this looks amazing. I’m actually disappointed with all this spirits shit. Dude is going around with like a claymore and swings it like twice the whole video.

[Bacon]

If you can beat a Zelda game you have the ability to beat a Dark Souls game. But DS requires more time, effort, and patience. You know, things that makes things harder. 

1 minute ago, Dodger said:

I mean there are literally people beating these games with no leveling and no upgrading also doing no damage boss fights.

 

But that doesn't make something easy. That just means those players are skilled. Yes, Dark Souls lets you add even more challenge but so do many games. You can play Zelda without getting any heart containers. The ability to make something harder doesn't mean the base level is easy.

[skillzdadirecta]

37 minutes ago, Bacon said:

If those videos were an example of how they are easy that is silly. That's just player skill. If you are already able to beat the game all you are doing is using a different controller with limitations. Anyone can learn to to that. 

That was my point.

[Bacon]

9 minutes ago, skillzdadirecta said:

That was my point.

Doesn't mean it isn't hard. Maybe I am misunderstanding, but it does seem to me you think the Souls games are genuinely easy. Where as I think they are hard and we have just gotten good. That is just learning how to play the game better but that is every game. Ignoring games that are difficult due to other players, Ally or Foe, all games that aren't relying heavily on RNG can be learned to the point of mastery. That doesn't mean they are easy. At least not to me. From makes some of the hardest games that aren't based on total bullshit.

 

Well, usually...

And here is me fighting Owl 2. Shit ain't EZPZ4ME

 

[skillzdadirecta]

11 minutes ago, Bacon said:

Doesn't mean it isn't hard. Maybe I am misunderstanding, but it does seem to me you think the Souls games are genuinely easy. Where as I think they are hard and we have just gotten good. That is just learning how to play the game better but that is every game. Ignoring games that are difficult due to other players, Ally or Foe, all games that aren't relying heavily on RNG can be learned to the point of mastery. That doesn't mean they are easy. At least not to me. From makes some of the hardest games that aren't based on total bullshit.

 

I don't think they're easy. I just don't think they're impossibly hard like some people make them out to be. Once you learn the patterns of the bosses the games CAN become quite easy and there really isn't a high skill barrier to these games like there is to say, a shooter or fighting game where actual reflexes come into play. The point I was making with showing people that if you invest the time to actually learn how to play these games, they can become incredibly easy. Embarassingly so in fact. The trick to these games as has been said before is patience and pattern recognition. 

[Bacon]

Just now, skillzdadirecta said:

I don't think they're easy. I just don't think they're impossibly hard like some people make them out to be. Once you learn the patterns of the bosses the games CAN become quite easy and there really isn't a high skill barrier to these games like there is to say, a shooter or fighting game where actual reflexes come into play. The point I was making with showing people that if you invest the time to actually learn how to play these games, they can become incredibly easy. Embarassingly so in fact. The trick to these games as has been said before is patience and pattern recognition. 

Yeah, ok, that's pretty true. 

[Keyser_Soze]

 

[legend]

I'm not a Souls fan in general, but that looked really good. They seem to be using a lot of the great ideas from BotW open world and fusing it with the Souls formula.

 

 

I think this conversation about difficulty is interesting. I think my take away is the game is "hard" in that you have to put in time and lots of failure before you succeed, but simultaneously "easy" in that virtually anyone can get very good at it, as opposed to some games where the skill ceiling is far higher than many people will ever achieve.

[Brick]

The magic in this game looks very cool. Whenever I play it I'll probably focus on that. 

[skillzdadirecta]

55 minutes ago, legend said:

I'm not a Souls fan in general, but that looked really good. They seem to be using a lot of the great ideas from BotW open world and fusing it with the Souls formula.

 

 

I think this conversation about difficulty is interesting. I think my take away is the game is "hard" in that you have to put in time and lots of failure before you succeed, but simultaneously "easy" in that virtually anyone can get very good at it, as opposed to some games where the skill ceiling is far higher than many people will ever achieve.

EXACTLY.

[Brian]

On 11/6/2021 at 8:18 AM, skillzdadirecta said:

 

But the better question I always have for folks is why do you keep playing these games if you don't like them? I really don't understand that. There are plenty of games and series that aren't for me for one reason or another but I don't actively resent them because of that. It seems like a lot of Souls non-fans are upset because the games aren't what they think they should be because they just can't experience them the way the gamers who put the time into them can. Sekiro became quite easy and challenging for me once it clicked with me on how to play it. Someone in this thread said that they relaized these games just aren't for them and they accepted that. I think a lot of gamers will save themselves a lot of unnecesary frustration (and money) if they just do the same 

Have you never bounced off a series, only for the newest entry to click? Civilization comes to mind where I bounced off all entries until 5 came out and clicked with me. Persona didn’t click for me until 5 as well. With this being the “fifth” DS/BB type game, maybe the fifth entry is the lucky entry for me. 

 

I will always keep trying series even if I know it is unlikely to click for me because you never know. 

[skillzdadirecta]

5 minutes ago, ManUtdRedDevils said:

Have you never bounced off a series, only for the newest entry to click? Civilization comes to mind where I bounced off all entries until 5 came out and clicked with me. Persona didn’t click for me until 5 as well. With this being the “fifth” DS/BB type game, maybe the fifth entry is the lucky entry for me. 

 

I will always keep trying series even if I know it is unlikely to click for me because you never know. 

Nah... If it takes FIVE games for a series to click for me then maybe that series isn't for me. I've learned to control FOMO so i don't need to play every game that comes out or that others are enjoying. I just don't have that kind of time. I play what I like and ignore what I don't. I'm always down to try new games, but once I've tried something, I can pretty much tell if something is for me or not. No need to bang my head against a wall trying to get into something that just ain't for me. Everything isn't for everybody and that's ok.

[Phaseknox]

On 11/6/2021 at 5:18 AM, skillzdadirecta said:

The thing with the souls games is that they require PATIENCE. If you take your time, especially the first time you're in an area or encountering a new enemy, you can get pretty far. The games just require you to actually learn how to play them unlike 90% of the games that have been made since the 16bit era. If you cut your gaming teeth in arcades and on the Super Nintendo or Sega Genesis, this type of diffilculty is a throwback.

I’m 51, and started gaming in the 70s with Pong. I grew up in the arcades, and arcade style action games, beat-em-ups, platformers, shooters, etc. were some of my favorite types of games and pretty much all that I played up until the Genesis/SNES era. Then I started to get into RPGs as well, and they’ve been a favorite of mine ever since.

 

The one thing that RPGs have always done from the very beginning is respect my time, but unfortunately the Soulsborne games don’t and that’s my biggest issue with them.

 

I love just about everything about the Soulsborne games including their dark gothic/fantasy worlds that beg to be explored, mysterious lore, cryptic characters, grotesque/hideous monsters and weighty satisfying combat. The one thing that I don’t love about them are their lack of save points before boss encounters.

 

I don’t mind the methodical pace of traversing the environments replaying them a few times over again until I learn enemy placement, behaviors, attack patterns, combat strategies against them, etc., but once I’ve finally gotten through a lengthy area and have to go up against a big powerful boss enemy that can kill me with one hit and that I’m most likely going to have to replay several times to learn its attack patterns and develop a strategy against to defeat then I want a save point right before it which is the standard for RPGs and for good reason.

 

Unfortunately, that’s not a design feature in the Soulsborne games. The save points are spaced extremely far apart from each other, and never before boss encounters. So if you die at a boss then you have to go through the same challenging lengthy part of the environment filled with tough enemies that you’ve already been through all over again just to reach the boss again, most likely die again and have to keep redoing until you beat it and are finally able to move on.

 

That’s not being respectful of the time that I put into the game up until that point, and despite me enjoying most aspects of the Soulsborne games that’s just not something that I have the time or patience to deal with especially from something that’s supposed to be enjoyable and entertaining. It causes anger and frustration defeating the entire purpose of what I play video games for in the first place. Of course overcoming challenges in video games is part of the fun of them IMO, but that’s not a challenge it’s simply tedious and time wasting.

 

If you or anyone else feels differently about it then that’s fine, but that’s my opinion of it and it unfortunately ruins the experience of what otherwise are some of the best action RPGs out there IMO.

[skillzdadirecta]

Just now, Phaseknox said:

I’m 51, and started gaming in the 70s with Pong. I grew up in the arcades, and arcade style action games, beat-em-ups, platformers, shooters, etc. were some of my favorite types of games and pretty much all that I played up until the Genesis/SNES era. Then I started to get into RPGs as well, and they’ve been a favorite of mine ever since.

 

The one thing that RPGs have always done from the very beginning is respect my time, but unfortunately the Soulsborne games don’t and that’s my biggest issue with them.

 

I love just about everything about Soulsborne games including their dark gothic/fantasy worlds that beg to be explored, mysterious lore, cryptic characters, grotesque/hideous monsters and weighty satisfying combat. The one thing that I don’t love about them are their lack of save points before boss encounters.

 

I don’t mind the methodical pace of traversing the environments replaying them a few times over again until I learn enemy placement, behaviors, attack patterns, combat strategies against them, etc., but once I’ve finally gotten through a lengthy area and have to go up against a big powerful boss enemy that can kill me with one hit and that I’m most likely going to have to replay several times to learn its attack patterns and develop a strategy against to defeat then I want a save point right before it which is the standard for RPGs and for good reason.

 

Unfortunately, that’s not a design feature in the Soulsborne games. The save points are spaced extremely far apart from each other, and never before boss encounters. So if you die at a boss then you have to go through the same challenging lengthy part of the environment filled with tough enemies that you’ve already been through all over again just to reach the boss again, most likely die again and have to keep redoing until you beat it and are finally able to move on.

 

That’s not being respectful of the time that I put into the game up until that point, and despite me enjoying most aspects of the Soulsborne games that’s just not something that I have the time or patience to deal with especially from something that’s supposed to be enjoyable and entertaining. It causes anger and frustration defeating the entire purpose of what I play video games for in the first place. Of course overcoming challenges in video games is part of the fun of them IMO, but that’s not a challenge it’s simply tedious and time wasting.

 

If you or anyone else feels differently about it then that’s fine, but that’s my opinion of it and it unfortunately ruins the experience of what otherwise are some of the best action RPGs out there IMO.

 

I mean basically what you're saying is "This game isn't for me." in a nutshell and that's cool. I don't know that it's a game designer's job to "respect your time." Your time is YOUR time and what you choose to do with it is up to you. These games are the way they are because the designers MADE them that way. Could they get even more fans of the series if they "respected gamer's time" as you put it and made the games a little more accomodating? Maybe. But then the games would literally be like every other RPG out there where you can save anywhere and overcome any challenge because of what is essentially "unlimited continues".

 

I've been gaming almost as long as you have and I KNOW you remember the 16bit days where you had a limited amount of lives in a game or RPG'S where you had to literally keep a piece of paper and a pencil next to you and hand draw your own maps because the game didn't give you one. The Souls games for me, are throwback to that era where games had legit challenges and you had to actually put a little effort into them to overcome them. Do i need everygame to be like this? No and I'm glad they aren't. But I'm glad THESE games are like this because it can get a little boring just pushing up on a controller and pressing the "win" button sometimes.

 

I just finished Guardians of the Galaxy which is a very fun game but is INCREDIBLY easy. I bumped the difficulty up to the next to hardest difficulty the game offers for my first playthrough and I still maybe died 5 times throughout the whole game. I STILL enjoyed the game though because for a game like this, the gameplay isn't really the point. This is one of the rare games for me where your really are playing it to experience the characters, story and world. The Souls games are NOT that. The story is sparse and in the background, the character's are pretty vaugue and the world is amazing but the exploration and risk of dying if you're not careful is PART of makes exploring it so exhilerating. 

 

I'll sum it up by just saying again, that maybe you guys just need to accept that this series of games just isn't for YOU and that's ok. There's nothing wrong with that. But there's nothing wrong with the developers designing the game the way THEY want the game to be or fans of the series for enjoying the games for what they are.

 

That said if they included and "easy mode", I wouldn't give a shit as long as it didn't break the existing formula. I'd just play the game the way it was orginally designed to be played. They could do that... clearly they don't want to. And that's their preorogative 

[Brian]

22 minutes ago, skillzdadirecta said:

Nah... If it takes FIVE games for a series to click for me then maybe that series isn't for me. I've learned to control FOMO so i don't need to play every game that comes out or that others are enjoying. I just don't have that kind of time. I play what I like and ignore what I don't. I'm always down to try new games, but once I've tried something, I can pretty much tell if something is for me or not. No need to bang my head against a wall trying to get into something that just ain't for me. Everything isn't for everybody and that's ok.

Series go through a ton of changes and QoL improvements. How many people love BotW but didn’t care for more traditional Zelda’s? It obviously works the other way where a series shifts away from what you love to something you don’t care for. I don’t think you need to shut your mind on a series just because multiple entries didn’t work.   

 

I will play Elden Ring. I will probably not care for it, but maybe I will. I hope I do.  If not, it’s just money. I probably would gambles it away anyway. 

[skillzdadirecta]

15 minutes ago, ManUtdRedDevils said:

Series go through a ton of changes and QoL improvements. How many people love BotW but didn’t care for more traditional Zelda’s? It obviously works the other way where a series shifts away from what you love to something you don’t care for. I don’t think you need to shut your mind on a series just because multiple entries didn’t work.   

 

I will play Elden Ring. I will probably not care for it, but maybe I will. I hope I do.  If not, it’s just money. I probably would gambles it away anyway. 

I mean if a series I didn't like radically reinvents itself and I'm curious, I'd give it a try. But I don't need to try Madden every year or the latest COD to find out if the game will finally click with me. Plenty of other stuff to play out there... but whatever floats your boat. Probably better to spend the money on games than gamble it away 

[Brian]

2 minutes ago, skillzdadirecta said:

I mean if a series I didn't like radically reinvents itself and I'm curious, I'd give it a try. But I don't need to try Madden every year or the latest COD to find out if the game will finally click with me. Plenty of other stuff to play out there... but whatever floats your boat. Probably better to spend the money on games than gamble it away 

There are other times where I will muddle through a game trying to figure it out and when I kind of do, I feel this urge to start over. I typically don’t, but the next game in the series I feel like I am starting with a better knowledge point and I get further into it. Rinse and repeat 5x and I’m into a new series. I am ready for Elden Ring. I think. 
 

[best3444]

I rewatched the video and I'm now pretty excited for this. I don't think it's going to be as punishing as a DS game since it's open world. The environment and combat look amazing. Cool magic effects and it seems like there will be exploration and discovery.

 

As of right now I'm sold and will be getting this. I'm positive this turns out very good.

[Bacon]

Someone who isn't me buy me Elden Ring. 

[best3444]

6 minutes ago, Bacon said:

Someone who isn't me buy me Elden Ring. 

 

@Commissar SFLUFAN got you!

[Bacon]

5 minutes ago, best3444 said:

@Commissar SFLUFAN got you!

You know I already asked. Now is the time to ask broadly and once a week until it happens. 

[Phaseknox]

3 hours ago, skillzdadirecta said:

I mean basically what you're saying is "This game isn't for me." in a nutshell and that's cool. I don't know that it's a game designer's job to "respect your time." Your time is YOUR time and what you choose to do with it is up to you. These games are the way they are because the designers MADE them that way. Could they get even more fans of the series if they "respected gamer's time" as you put it and made the games a little more accomodating? Maybe. But then the games would literally be like every other RPG out there where you can save anywhere and overcome any challenge because of what is essentially "unlimited continues".

 

I've been gaming almost as long as you have and I KNOW you remember the 16bit days where you had a limited amount of lives in a game or RPG'S where you had to literally keep a piece of paper and a pencil next to you and hand draw your own maps because the game didn't give you one. The Souls games for me, are throwback to that era where games had legit challenges and you had to actually put a little effort into them to overcome them. Do i need everygame to be like this? No and I'm glad they aren't. But I'm glad THESE games are like this because it can get a little boring just pushing up on a controller and pressing the "win" button sometimes.

I guess that you can take what I said to basically mean that the Soulsborne games aren’t for me based on their design structure of not offering more save points especially before boss encounters, but that’s really my only issue with them since I like just about everything else about them.

 

From my perspective I don’t really see how including a save point before a boss encounter would really change things all too much beyond just not making you have to replay long sections of the games again that you’ve already played just to get another shot at the boss.

 

I’m not asking for a save anywhere at anytime option since that wouldn’t fit their design structure, but more save points primarily ones before boss encounters would be nice as it would lessen the frustration factor quite significantly IMO. The same challenge that the games offer would still be intact, you just wouldn’t be required to have to replay long sections of the games again that you’ve already completed just in order to fight the boss again.

 

If you and others disagree with me, that’s perfectly fine. I’m just giving my own personal opinion as a longtime gamer who’s a big RPG fan. 

[best3444]

52 minutes ago, Phaseknox said:

I guess that you can take what I said to basically mean that the Soulsborne games aren’t for me based on their design structure of not offering more save points especially before boss encounters, but that’s really my only issue with them since I like just about everything else about them.

 

From my perspective I don’t really see how including a save point before a boss encounter would really change things all too much beyond just not making you have to replay long sections of the games again that you’ve already played just to get another shot at the boss.

 

I’m not asking for a save anywhere at anytime option since that wouldn’t fit their design structure, but more save points primarily ones before boss encounters would be nice as it would lessen the frustration factor quite significantly IMO. The same challenge that the games offer would still be intact, you just wouldn’t be required to have to replay long sections of the games again that you’ve already completed just in order to fight the boss again.

 

If you and others disagree with me, that’s perfectly fine. I’m just giving my own personal opinion as a longtime gamer who’s a big RPG fan. 

 

I'm 100% with your thoughts. You make valid points that would improve these types of games.

[best3444]

1 hour ago, Bacon said:

You know I already asked. Now is the time to ask broadly and once a week until it happens. 

 

I'll buy it for you if he doesn't. Not joking.

[Keyser_Soze]

A lot of times save points / bonfire are before a boss. If they are not you can run there without engaging in combat with enemies.

[Bacon]

3 hours ago, best3444 said:

 

I'll buy it for you if he doesn't. Not joking.

And then I'll give you a kiss from a far. Like so

[Biggie]

3 hours ago, best3444 said:

 

I'll buy it for you if he doesn't. Not joking.

Whoa there cowboy. You promised me a game first a long time ago. 

[Phaseknox]

1 hour ago, Keyser_Soze said:

A lot of times save points / bonfire are before a boss. If they are not you can run there without engaging in combat with enemies.

[Bacon]

1 hour ago, Phaseknox said:

Maybe not in Demon's Souls and Dark Souls 1. But ever since two there have been many bonfires to the point where some are redundant. Most of the "run backs" take a minute at best if it is particularly bad. There might be enemies but just don't fight them. I mean, HARDCORE DARK SOULS FANS have started to complain about how many bonfires there are and how dying to a boss doesn't punish you anymore as you no longer have the grueling run backs. 

 

Dark Souls 2 too many bonfires

Dark Souls 3 too many bonfires

Sekiro too many bonfires(bit of a reach)