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Keyser_Soze

General Gaming Death Stranding OT - Special Delivery, update - PC release on July 14 (Steam/EGS)

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@AbsolutSurgen You basically got my point. However, I have played shitty games just for their story. Like RDR2. I love the story but it still isn't a good game. 

 

@SaysWho? I never said my favorite games weren't art. That wasn't exactly my point. And while I generally don't do out of my way to call games art, I generally wouldn't stop others from calling them art. Although I do like the idea of calling them crafts over art, but I don't care much either way. 

 

Here is my thing. For the most part, I have no desire to play a game because it is only good art. Like, I love playing games for their stories, but the gameplay usually isn't all that bad, so I don't really feel like I am playing a bad game. And there are good games I haven't played because the story just isn't interesting to me. Visuals and music and important as well, but for me, as long as they aren't bad enough to negatively impact the game then I generally don't think about them unless they are amazingly good. TLoZ: OoT is a game that has/had it all. Music, visuals, gameplay, and story. Everything about that game was amazing at the time. At least it was for me when I was like 12 or something. 

 

Like, I have played visual novels. I don't really think of them as games, but I don't really know there to lump them. They have no gameplay and are only story, music, and visuals. The story doesn't get in in the way of the gameplay and vice versa because there just isn't any gameplay and I am fine with that. The thing I hate is when the gameplay gets in the way of the "art." If there is ever a time I am rushing to get past the gameplay because it is in the way of everything else then it has failed as a video game. You should never want to hurry up and get the gameplay over with. The only thing worse than that is when the gameplay is as shitty as the art. 

 

Death Stranding looks to have some of the most boring gameplay I have ever seen. To me, that just makes it a bad game. The story could be great. I mean, I have never ever played a MGS game but the stories are interesting and I may have watched a few MGS movies on youtube. That is what I plan on doing with DS, and that is also why DS seems like it is going to be a bad game. A good game shouldn't make someone only want to watch the cut scenes on youtube. 

 

Before someone tires to nitpick the thing about visual novels and not playing games just because they are art, let me clarify. I have already said I don't really consider them games. Some actually do have gameplay, but they are called something else that I can't remember... I think, whatever, that's not the point. Visual Novels are more like visual audio books with music were the only part that is considered to be a game is when you pick an option from the multiple choices. But there is no actual gameplay and that is fine. I am not "playing" them for the game. I just want the story(and maybe the porn if it is one of those types), and there is no bad gameplay to get in my way. Like, Visual Novels make for horrible games, but then there really isn't any gameplay. It is just different when compared to something like Death Stranding or actual video games. 

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8 hours ago, AbsolutSurgen said:

Having emotional power is different than, being primarily appreciated for it's emotional power -- that is the key to that particular definition.  I don't really feel the need to spend the time Googling anything more.

This goes back to my first point -- there is no consensus on "what is art" among people who are much smarter/have thought much more about the topic than I.  Philosopher's have tried to define and agree on this topic (literally) for hundreds of years.  At one point, some philosophers (I think in the 18th century) tried to split creative work between "arts" and "crafts" -- and IMHO, video games primarily fall on the "crafts" side of things, rather than the "art" side of things.

 

You probably should. 

 

"the various branches of creative activity, such as painting, music, literature, and dance."

 

Crafts typically involve creating something by hand, like chairs and pottery. Video game developers have art developers to assess art assets and creative directors who are trying to bring their vision into their project. It's a wholly different beast.

 

Quote

I think some music, artwork, paintings and stories are art.  Journey may be a video game that I would consider art -- because my appreciation of that experience was primarily based on the emotional impact it had on me (IMHO, it was mechanically very bland, and really not much of a traditional "video game"). 

 

To expand, I do not find that I primarily appreciate video games (in general) for their emotional impact or their aesthetic appeal.  Similarly, IMHO, the John Wick movies, that I thoroughly enjoy, are not art.  The MCU movies I enjoy, are not art.  The pulpy fantasy novels that I enjoy, are not art.  The print I have hanging above my computer desk (of the inside of a helicopter cockpit, firing missiles at a dragon), which I think is awesome (and my wife hates) is not art.  I am omitting them because I do not primarily enjoy them because of "their beauty or emotional power" --  to quote your own definition.  Being art doesn't make something "more worthy" or "more enjoyable" (unless you are a pretentious asshole)-- IMHO, it is merely a descriptor of why the experience is engaging.

 

But, if I go back to the original point you were replying to -- I think @Bacons point was that he doesn't play games for their artistic merit.  (I could be wrong, and if I am, I am sure @Bacon will correct me).

 

It also doesn't matter what someone goes into something wanting to appreciate. Someone can watch The Godfather or Taxi Driver and want to go into it just for some violence; creating a movie is still an art form. So is creating a video game.

 

41 minutes ago, Bacon said:

[snip]

 

I think we're in a lot of agreement here because we both see lots of different strands -- the look, feeling, story, gameplay, etc. -- as to why someone would play or not play a game. 

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Question for anyone making the "not gonna play Death Stranding because the gameplay doesn't look fun" argument : What's your take on PT, Silent Hill 2, Grim Fandango, Killer 7, The Last Guardian and anything else loved for the story and creativity despite (arguably) bad and/or unfun gameplay?  Assuming DS at least meets expectations with its story and presentation and the gameplay, gran turismo of walking sims it may be, is crafted well enough to do it justice, does it still mean the experience as a whole can't be engaging enough to be worth playing?

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8 minutes ago, fuckle85 said:

Question for anyone making the "not gonna play Death Stranding because the gameplay doesn't look fun" argument : What's your take on PT, Silent Hill 2, Grim Fandango, Killer 7, The Last Guardian and anything else loved for the story and creativity despite (arguably) bad and/or unfun gameplay?  Assuming DS at least meets expectations with its story and presentation and the gameplay, gran turismo of walking sims it may be, is crafted well enough to do it justice, does it still mean the experience as a whole can't be engaging enough to be worth playing?

I’m sure that all the armchair critics of D1P haven’t played this game yet.  Amazing that somehow they have concluded it’s not good and not worth playing. These guys are amazing huh!!!

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I mean, it just doesn't look fun to me, but the story doesn't seem to appeal, either. Just nothing about this game interests me and I've got a ton else that does appeal to me that I'd rather spend money on and the time playing. 

 

Silent Hill 2 is one of my all time favorite games, too. 

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10 minutes ago, fuckle85 said:

Question for anyone making the "not gonna play Death Stranding because the gameplay doesn't look fun" argument : What's your take on PT, Silent Hill 2, Grim Fandango, Killer 7, The Last Guardian and anything else loved for the story and creativity despite (arguably) bad and/or unfun gameplay?  Assuming DS at least meets expectations with its story and presentation and the gameplay, gran turismo of walking sims it may be, is crafted well enough to do it justice, does it still mean the experience as a whole can't be engaging enough to be worth playing?

I have not played PT, SH2, Grim Fandango, Killer 7, or The Last Guardian. I have played Ico and hated it. I have watched others play PT and SH2 and that was really fun, but I have no desire to play them. I have no desire to play games like SOMA or Amnesia but I have watched them be beaten. I have played a few REs and Dead Space 1-2. I like those games. 

 

6 minutes ago, Biggie said:

I’m sure that all the armchair critics of D1P haven’t played this game yet.  Amazing that somehow they have concluded it’s not good and not worth playing. These guys are amazing huh!!!

You don't have to play a game to know that kind of gameplay is not what you are interested in. From what has been shown and talked about in reviews, there is nothing remotely interesting in the gameplay component. At least for me. The worst kinds of quests in RPG's are the fetch quests where all you do is go from destination A to destination B. Traversal of the environment isn't something I care about. The online mechanic is neat, where you can use other people's structures, but that isn't something that would make me play this game. The crafting of your loadout is unappealing and looks tedious. The vehicles look unfun to control, similar to the mako from the first ME. The story could be good, but I don't know. So, from what I have seen of the game, there is no reason for me to get it. Are you suggesting that, despite all the evidence that makes the game seem like it is something I would not enjoy, I should still buy it because I can't really know if I'll like the game or not without playing it? 

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I think I'm going to really enjoy it, and if I'm wrong, then I'm wrong. Wouldn't be the first time I looked forward to a game and :('d later.

 

But sometimes it's like Days Gone where people are shitting on it and then I'm all like :) because it's terrific. 

 

My hope is that I'm playing it and I'm all like :) and then I get to the end and it's like :). I could start like :) and then end up :( later, and that's happened as well.

 

But with a game as unique as this, I'd like to :) if only because a weird ass different game being :) would be a great message to branch out when doing AAA games.

 

But sometimes even if something is unique, it's :( because it misses the mark, and that's OK.

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1 hour ago, Biggie said:

I’m sure that all the armchair critics of D1P haven’t played this game yet.  Amazing that somehow they have concluded it’s not good and not worth playing. These guys are amazing huh!!!


I like how you’re defending this game but it looks exactly the type of game you would hate. I’m sure you’ll play it and say you loved it no matter what at this point.

Jumping onto @gfxtwin’s “unique” view isn’t going to make this game somehow amazing.

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1 hour ago, Keyser_Soze said:


I like how you’re defending this game but it looks exactly the type of game you would hate. I’m sure you’ll play it and say you loved it no matter what at this point.

Jumping onto @gfxtwin’s “unique” view isn’t going to make this game somehow amazing.

Nah, ima wait and maybe watch a few streams. Then either buy it or don’t. I’m not defending it. lol.

I just find it amazing how much people know about a game that hasn’t released. 

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6 minutes ago, Biggie said:

I just find it amazing how much people know about a game that hasn’t released. 

 

They "know" based on listening to impressions and watching footage of the game which they can show up the first half of the game :p

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3 minutes ago, ManUtdRedDevils said:

I “know” RDR 2 is an all time amazing game based of its 97 opencritic average. Anyone who says that game is a boring pos with horrible controllers is fucking wrong.  

 

 

Yeah but the first game was a boring POS, anyone who bought into the second one being good was smoking the good stuff.

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5 hours ago, Biggie said:

I’m sure that all the armchair critics of D1P haven’t played this game yet.  Amazing that somehow they have concluded it’s not good and not worth playing. These guys are amazing huh!!!

 

Game doesn't look fun... reviewers are saying it isn't fun and the story is whack-a-do. Even the reviewers who love the game are throwing in caveats that would give the impression that the game just isn't fun. Nothing shown in any of the gameplay videos looks fun or interesting and again, people who have played the game are saying that what you see is what you get as far as gameplay. I would LOVE a demo so i can try it out because certain aspects of the game do look intriguing to me. But I'm also not the biggest fan of Kojima or his storytelling, so is it really unreasonable for a person to see all the information out there about this game and past experience with its creator to infer that the game wouldn't be for them? Whether they are fans of Kojima or not?

 

2 hours ago, Biggie said:

Nah, ima wait and maybe watch a few streams. Then either buy it or don’t. I’m not defending it. lol.

I just find it amazing how much people know about a game that hasn’t released 

 

So previews and impressions don't count? I'm literally basing my comments on videos of people playing the game.

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2 hours ago, Biggie said:

Nah, ima wait and maybe watch a few streams. Then either buy it or don’t. I’m not defending it. lol.

I just find it amazing how much people know about a game that hasn’t released. 

I can count the number of times where I've watched footage of a game, heard impressions, learned how it played and then actually played it and had a completely unexpected experience maybe like... twice in my life. We're not "armchair" anything, we fucking play games as our main hobbies. We're the "experts" on this because it's what we do all day, all year. I don't need to try literally every single game to get to the point where I know exactly what it is, because games that actually surprise you in terms of gameplay mechanics are actually extremely rare.

 

Just like anyone with a brain can watch someone playing RDR2, hear them slam the stick to move, count to 6, and then see Arthur start slowly starting to move and realizing it's an over-designed piece of shit trying to pass itself off as a video game when it really should've been trimmed down to a 2-3 hour movie.

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6 hours ago, fuckle85 said:

Question for anyone making the "not gonna play Death Stranding because the gameplay doesn't look fun" argument : What's your take on PT, Silent Hill 2, Grim Fandango, Killer 7, The Last Guardian and anything else loved for the story and creativity despite (arguably) bad and/or unfun gameplay?  Assuming DS at least meets expectations with its story and presentation and the gameplay, gran turismo of walking sims it may be, is crafted well enough to do it justice, does it still mean the experience as a whole can't be engaging enough to be worth playing?

I'm perfectly capable of enjoying games where the gameplay isn't great because I'm enjoying the story. I would personally make the argument that, as an inherently interactive medium that gameplay is rather core to the experience, but that doesn't preclude games with "poor" or simple gameplay from being worthwhile.

 

I also think that, like with all other artistic mediums, my personal lack of interest doesn't have imply any broader implications for the medium or even for the specific title. Just because I generally don't like horror movies and don't want to see a specific one doesn't mean that particular film isn't great, that there aren't great horror films, or that films as a whole aren't art. I've seen experimental theater shows that I've loved, and I've seen experimental theater that I thought were terrible, but I think it's exciting to see challenging art. It's rare to see something with such a big budget try something so different, and I applaud Kojima for doing something so unique at this scale. I imagine that some people will get a lot out of the experience, and I'm happy for everyone willing to give it a shot. I hope people enjoy it.

 

If you just told me that there was a crazy unique game that was really dividing opinion, I'd often be happy to give it a try. However, when you also tell me that it's 50 hours long and that it's a story by Kojima, I can't help but lose interest. I think he's a terrible storyteller who values oddity and intricacy over character and story. I've never enjoyed the stories in his games, and nothing I've read about DS makes me think this will be the one to change my mind.

 

 

 

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20 hours ago, CastlevaniaNut18 said:

There are way too many great games out there to tell someone they "should" play a game that doesn't look appealing to them. Even if they like most of Kojima's work. 

 

Right, but that isn't what I said. If it looked unappealing from the start for you, then it makes sense not to want to play it even if you have liked Kojima's past work. My first post even said there are lots of other games out there for people to enjoy. My point was if the only thing dissuading an otherwise interested Kojima fan to play this game was just because of reviews coming out now that show it's divisive (not bad, divisive) but you enjoyed the trailers, have been intrigued, like the graphics and art style, etc. then yes, I think it's silly not to try the game because reviews showed it was divisive. In fact, that makes me more intrigued, not less.

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1 hour ago, skillzdadirecta said:

 

Game doesn't look fun... reviewers are saying it isn't fun and the story is whack-a-do. Even the reviewers who love the game are throwing in caveats that would give the impression that the game just isn't fun. Nothing shown in any of the gameplay videos looks fun or interesting and again, people who have played the game are saying that what you see is what you get as far as gameplay. I would LOVE a demo so i can try it out because certain aspects of the game do look intriguing to me. But I'm also not the biggest fan of Kojima or his storytelling, so is it really unreasonable for a person to see all the information out there about this game and past experience with its creator to infer that the game wouldn't be for them? Whether they are fans of Kojima or not?

 

 

So previews and impressions don't count? I'm literally basing my comments on videos of people playing the game.

 

1 hour ago, Xbob42 said:

I can count the number of times where I've watched footage of a game, heard impressions, learned how it played and then actually played it and had a completely unexpected experience maybe like... twice in my life. We're not "armchair" anything, we fucking play games as our main hobbies. We're the "experts" on this because it's what we do all day, all year. I don't need to try literally every single game to get to the point where I know exactly what it is, because games that actually surprise you in terms of gameplay mechanics are actually extremely rare.

 

Just like anyone with a brain can watch someone playing RDR2, hear them slam the stick to move, count to 6, and then see Arthur start slowly starting to move and realizing it's an over-designed piece of shit trying to pass itself off as a video game when it really should've been trimmed down to a 2-3 hour movie.

Ok. You’re not going to play it. Gotcha. 👌🏻   Think I’ll give it a whirl. That okay with you fellows?

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22 minutes ago, Biggie said:

 

Ok. You’re not going to play it. Gotcha. 👌🏻   Think I’ll give it a whirl. That okay with you fellows?

 

Lol it was always ok with me... I never gave a shit if you played it or not. Knock yourself out :lol: I'm not the one on the thread saying people should or shouldn't play the game. That's other folks... is it ok if I choose not to play it or wait until it's cheap or free with PS+ or does that make me a "fucking robot?"

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7 hours ago, fuckle85 said:

Question for anyone making the "not gonna play Death Stranding because the gameplay doesn't look fun" argument : What's your take on PT, Silent Hill 2, Grim Fandango, Killer 7, The Last Guardian and anything else loved for the story and creativity despite (arguably) bad and/or unfun gameplay?  Assuming DS at least meets expectations with its story and presentation and the gameplay, gran turismo of walking sims it may be, is crafted well enough to do it justice, does it still mean the experience as a whole can't be engaging enough to be worth playing?

 

Hey! Grim Fandango is not a bad game nor unfun. Also, that game was rarely not funny or in some similar way enjoyable. Killer 7 was...different, but never boring.

 

A game can get by on bad gameplay if the story is good. However, the story has to have incredibly good pacing and things can never get boring. PT was never boring. Silent Hill 2 was never boring. The worst thing any form of entertainment can be is boring. The opposite of boring isn't action-packed, either. A game or movie or book or whatever doesn't have to be bombastic to not be boring. It's perfectly fine to lean on intrigue or give some novel insight. Neither of those, however, is boring. 2001 isn't exactly exciting, but it still avoids being boring. Games don't necessarily have to be "fun", but they certainly better not be boring.

 

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9 hours ago, fuckle85 said:

Question for anyone making the "not gonna play Death Stranding because the gameplay doesn't look fun" argument : What's your take on PT, Silent Hill 2, Grim Fandango, Killer 7, The Last Guardian and anything else loved for the story and creativity despite (arguably) bad and/or unfun gameplay?  Assuming DS at least meets expectations with its story and presentation and the gameplay, gran turismo of walking sims it may be, is crafted well enough to do it justice, does it still mean the experience as a whole can't be engaging enough to be worth playing?

PT -- It was a boring waste of my time, with as far as I can tell, had no redeeming qualities.  (For the record, I find most slasher/gore style "horror" movies boring as well.)

Grim Fandango -- When I played it in 1998, the gameplay was actually pretty advanced for and adventure game.  I would not call the moment-to-moment gameplay boring or tedious.  (It has aged poorly though, and probably isn't as attractive too new gamers)

The Last Guardian -- A poorly controlling, frustrating game that I eventually gave up playing in disgust.

I haven't played Killer 7 or Silent Hill 2.

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I 100% respect the "eh it just doesn't look like something I'd want to play" reason for skipping DS btw. It's just that given how much info about story and gameplay still hasn't been released it's kinda wut to me why anyone at all interested would reach a conclusion yet. It could definitely end up being a pretentious mound of garbage, but even after playing a decent chunk of it it was difficult to know for sure.  It does seem fair enough imo to say it won't have as much appeal to audiences, including me potentially, as most well-made AAA games, sure.  I think a lot of passionate MGS fans will be more at home exploring that world than they might expect though.

 

8 hours ago, Keyser_Soze said:


I like how you’re defending this game but it looks exactly the type of game you would hate. I’m sure you’ll play it and say you loved it no matter what at this point.

Jumping onto @gfxtwin’s “unique” view isn’t going to make this game somehow amazing.

 

lol why is it I keep getting confused with gfxtwin!?  I am not them, though I did post on another account here several years ago.

 

 

 

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9 minutes ago, fuckle85 said:

 It's just that given how much info about story and gameplay still hasn't been released it's kinda wut to me why anyone at all interested would reach a conclusion yet.  Reviewers are saying, including positive reviews like Skillup, that You've seen the game. The gameplay loop has been shown for the most part. They haven't been ambiguous about that. 

 

  I do think a lot of passionate MGS fans will be more at home exploring that world than they might expect though. You've said this several times despite the fact that reviewers have said explicitly don't go in expecting Metal Gear. How is this game potentially appealing specifically to Metal Gear Fans? Not Kojima fans, but Metal Gear Fans. 

 

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36 minutes ago, skillzdadirecta said:

 

I mean...listen, all I have is my take here, maybe I'm wrong and the reviewers who played all of it are more on point than me, sure.  I still think there's lots of info left out of those reviews, but I'll concede it doesn't mean they aren't comprehensive enough to be informative on whether DS will be appealing or not based on what someone finds engaging.  If anyone sees the footage and reads the reviews and is like "yeah that just doesn't seem fun to me", I get it and respect it, though I think it's too soon to have in depth discussion on the merits of the game beyond that.

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Til gamers who don’t like a game, aren’t going to play that game, and dislike that game, sure do post a lot about that game. 😂

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4 hours ago, Greatoneshere said:

 

Right, but that isn't what I said. If it looked unappealing from the start for you, then it makes sense not to want to play it even if you have liked Kojima's past work. My first post even said there are lots of other games out there for people to enjoy. My point was if the only thing dissuading an otherwise interested Kojima fan to play this game was just because of reviews coming out now that show it's divisive (not bad, divisive) but you enjoyed the trailers, have been intrigued, like the graphics and art style, etc. then yes, I think it's silly not to try the game because reviews showed it was divisive. In fact, that makes me more intrigued, not less.

I think it's fair, with the multitude of games out there, to look at reviews and impressions and judge a game as something you'd rather play or not. $60 is a decent chunk of money for some people and it sucks to buy something and not like it. There's a reason previews and reviews exist. Once in a while, it works out to ignore the reviews. It did well for me when I bought Days Gone, despite the negative reviews. But I'd also been interested in that one and the reviews were still correct in many of the game's aspects. It was a technically flawed work in places.

On the flip side, I ignored the reviews and bought RDR2 for the hype I'd long had and that was a $40 misfire on my part.

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23 minutes ago, Biggie said:

Til gamers who don’t like a game, aren’t going to play that game, and dislike that game, sure do post a lot about that game. 😂

I've been waiting for this game for years and I'm here to get at least some entertainment out of my investment by panning it on the internet. Ok?

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13 minutes ago, CastlevaniaNut18 said:

I think it's fair, with the multitude of games out there, to look at reviews and impressions and judge a game as something you'd rather play or not. $60 is a decent chunk of money for some people and it sucks to buy something and not like it. There's a reason previews and reviews exist. Once in a while, it works out to ignore the reviews. It did well for me when I bought Days Gone, despite the negative reviews. But I'd also been interested in that one and the reviews were still correct in many of the game's aspects. It was a technically flawed work in places.

On the flip side, I ignored the reviews and bought RDR2 for the hype I'd long had and that was a $40 misfire on my part.

 

There are way too many games to play. There's absolutely no reason to buy a game on day one when the reviews are iffy and your personal backlog is a thousand miles long. This is one of those situations, where you wait and see what the consensus is after the hype has died down.

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6 minutes ago, Ghost_MH said:

 

There are way too many games to play. There's absolutely no reason to buy a game on day one when the reviews are iffy and your personal backlog is a thousand miles long. This is one of those situations, where you wait and see what the consensus is after the hype has died down.

But that’s what GAMERS DO!!! lol

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8 minutes ago, Ghost_MH said:

 

There are way too many games to play. There's absolutely no reason to buy a game on day one when the reviews are iffy and your personal backlog is a thousand miles long. This is one of those situations, where you wait and see what the consensus is after the hype has died down.

RDR2 comes out tomorrow -- that is what I am playing for the foreseeable future.

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1 hour ago, CastlevaniaNut18 said:

I think it's fair, with the multitude of games out there, to look at reviews and impressions and judge a game as something you'd rather play or not. $60 is a decent chunk of money for some people and it sucks to buy something and not like it. There's a reason previews and reviews exist. Once in a while, it works out to ignore the reviews. It did well for me when I bought Days Gone, despite the negative reviews. But I'd also been interested in that one and the reviews were still correct in many of the game's aspects. It was a technically flawed work in places.

On the flip side, I ignored the reviews and bought RDR2 for the hype I'd long had and that was a $40 misfire on my part.

 

That's fair - my experience is quite different - I often enjoy games I was already super intrigued by which I'm glad I didn't ignore just because of reviews. Like I said, renting the game is fine, etc.

 

This game is too big and too unique for those who were super hyped until this point is all. It's an "event". Don't miss it if you were already inclined to do it. But yeah all good if people don't play it but this is going to be a "discussion" game for months afterward.

 

This is classic Kojima in that even people who aren't playing the game are talking about it. MGS2 and MGS4 were similarly received negatively at first but those were two great games for me. 

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