General Gaming Death Stranding OT - Special Delivery, update - PC release on July 14 (Steam/EGS)

[Bloodporne]

45 minutes ago, skillzdadirecta said:

 Do you think a demo would benefit the game?

I would love a damn demo.

[Brian]

Here IGN reason why they gave Death Stranding 6.8/10 :

In RDR2, the game tell you that to do and where to go but in DS, it doesn't lmao

These kids are mad because the game doesn't tell you what to do, now we know why the journalists always play on easy mode 😂 #DeathStranding pic.twitter.com/jlxsdSXzBC

— Tiger (@TigerCA123) November 2, 2019

 

I stand with Great. It can’t be more boring than RDR 2 which every critic sucked off. 

[SaysWho?]

6 hours ago, Bacon said:

I don't want to play art. I want to play video games. If a video game is only good because it is art then it isn't a good game. I love the story of RDR2, but the game part isn't that good. 

 

Your favorite video games are art. 

[AbsolutSurgen]

48 minutes ago, SaysWho? said:

 

Your favorite video games are art. 

What is art?

[vaxick]

I'm so torn over this.  Part of me wants to try it, but another part of me is saying I should return my copy when it comes in the mail.

[SaysWho?]

2 minutes ago, AbsolutSurgen said:

What is art?

 

"the expression or application of human creative skill and imagination, typically in a visual form such as painting or sculpture, producing works to be appreciated primarily for their beauty or emotional power."

 

Architecture is art.

 

Which is why level design is also art. 

 

Music is art.

 

Which is why music in video games is art.

 

Stories, music, designs, are all art, and video games do all of that and give agency. Even a game like Mario is art.

[Spork3245]

15 minutes ago, AbsolutSurgen said:

What is art?

 

🍆 

[Keyser_Soze]

37 minutes ago, AbsolutSurgen said:

What is art?

 

[AbsolutSurgen]

28 minutes ago, SaysWho? said:

 

"the expression or application of human creative skill and imagination, typically in a visual form such as painting or sculpture, producing works to be appreciated primarily for their beauty or emotional power."

 

Architecture is art.

 

Which is why level design is also art. 

 

Music is art.

 

Which is why music in video games is art.

 

Stories, music, designs, are all art, and video games do all of that and give agency. Even a game like Mario is art.

My question was meant to be rhetorical -- because the debate of what is and isn't art has raged for hundreds of years without resolution.

 

Stories, music and design were all part of the last newscast I watched -- and I don't consider that newscast art.

 

Most video games are not primarily/solely appreciated for their beauty or emotional power -- they are also (perhaps, even primarily) appreciated for their engagement with game mechanics.  Which IMHO, is why, most video games are not art.

 

Back to @Bacon's, point -- my interpretation of his comment is that he does not play video games to appreciate their beauty or emotional power (neither do I).

 

17 minutes ago, Spork3245 said:

 

🍆

That is art! 

[AbsolutSurgen]

2 minutes ago, Keyser_Soze said:

 

I have no idea who that is, but I'm guessing his first name is Art.

[SaysWho?]

Just now, AbsolutSurgen said:

My question was meant to be rhetorical -- because the debate of what is and isn't art has raged for hundreds of years without resolution.

 

Stories, music and design were all part of the last newscast I watched -- and I don't consider that newscast art.

 

 

You'd be wrong about that as well; there is easily an art to constructing a good news story versus a mediocre one.

 

Games are art. 

[Keyser_Soze]

Just now, AbsolutSurgen said:

I have no idea who that is, but I'm guessing his first name is Art.

 

You'd be correct. I guess I'm not as good of a writer as Kojima.

[AbsolutSurgen]

1 minute ago, SaysWho? said:

 

You'd be wrong about that as well; there is easily an art to constructing a good news story versus a mediocre one.

 

Games are art. 

A good news story isn't "appreciated primarily for their beauty or emotional power" -- to use your definition.

[SaysWho?]

Just now, AbsolutSurgen said:

A good news story isn't "appreciated primarily for their beauty or emotional power" -- to use your definition.

 

Emotional power from a good news story is pretty much standard fare. You're more than welcome to Google more information rather than hang your hat on a dictionary.com definition I gave you, but if you think music, artwork, paintings, stories, etc. are art, then you have to commit Olympic style stretching to omit things you don't agree with because it feels good to omit.

[Moa]

Having listened to the recent Beastcast, it sounds like not only is it a mediocre game, it is bad art.

 

Obviously I haven't played it, and I really do hate to have the wind taken from my sails on this game, but the actual story and what the game has to say sounds like it has the depth of a Jaden Smith tweet.

[Biggie]

On 11/2/2019 at 8:12 AM, fuckle85 said:

So my roommate from college is in town this week with a review copy and we just breezed through a seven hour chunk of it. All I'll say right now is Death Stranding is pretty fucking bonkers, but not nearly as bonky as a lot of reviews made it seem.  It'll take a minute to grind through that slog of an opening act, but then you start getting the weapons, gadgets, upgrades, vehicles, etc.  The reviews are kinda misleading, honestly: pretty certain MGS fans are gonna adore this game to death so if you're huge into that series definitely pre-order it soon or buy it on release week, then sit back and relax while letting the gorgeous imagery, brilliant cinematics and engaging gameplay wash over you for 40 hours.  This will easily be a GOTG contender.

 

On 11/2/2019 at 9:53 AM, stepee said:

Yeah, I’m still super hyped for this. 

I’m getting hyped too

[AbsolutSurgen]

1 minute ago, SaysWho? said:

 

Emotional power from a good news story is pretty much standard fare. You're more than welcome to Google more information rather than hang your hat on a dictionary.com definition I gave you, but if you think music, artwork, paintings, stories, etc. are art, then you have to commit Olympic style stretching to omit things you don't agree with because it feels good to omit.

Having emotional power is different than, being primarily appreciated for it's emotional power -- that is the key to that particular definition.  I don't really feel the need to spend the time Googling anything more.

This goes back to my first point -- there is no consensus on "what is art" among people who are much smarter/have thought much more about the topic than I.  Philosopher's have tried to define and agree on this topic (literally) for hundreds of years.  At one point, some philosophers (I think in the 18th century) tried to split creative work between "arts" and "crafts" -- and IMHO, video games primarily fall on the "crafts" side of things, rather than the "art" side of things.

 

I think some music, artwork, paintings and stories are art.  Journey may be a video game that I would consider art -- because my appreciation of that experience was primarily based on the emotional impact it had on me (IMHO, it was mechanically very bland, and really not much of a traditional "video game"). 

 

To expand, I do not find that I primarily appreciate video games (in general) for their emotional impact or their aesthetic appeal.  Similarly, IMHO, the John Wick movies, that I thoroughly enjoy, are not art.  The MCU movies I enjoy, are not art.  The pulpy fantasy novels that I enjoy, are not art.  The print I have hanging above my computer desk (of the inside of a helicopter cockpit, firing missiles at a dragon), which I think is awesome (and my wife hates) is not art.  I am omitting them because I do not primarily enjoy them because of "their beauty or emotional power" --  to quote your own definition.  Being art doesn't make something "more worthy" or "more enjoyable" (unless you are a pretentious asshole)-- IMHO, it is merely a descriptor of why the experience is engaging.

 

But, if I go back to the original point you were replying to -- I think @Bacons point was that he doesn't play games for their artistic merit.  (I could be wrong, and if I am, I am sure @Bacon will correct me).

[Xbob42]

1 hour ago, Moa said:

Having listened to the recent Beastcast, it sounds like not only is it a mediocre game, it is bad art.

 

Obviously I haven't played it, and I really do hate to have the wind taken from my sails on this game, but the actual story and what the game has to say sounds like it has the depth of a Jaden Smith tweet.

Wow, a Kojima game that's surface-level bullshit traipsing around as if it were high art? It's not like that's been his whole M.O. his entire career or anything. The only people that ever find the drivel he puts on the screen in any way deep (like Dan Ryckert, who has read probably 3 books in his entire life, likely wrestling-related) are those who spent their time in school trying to suck their own dicks in the bathroom, an art Kojima has, oddly enough, completely mastered, although he forgoes the bathroom and does so utilizing tens of millions of dollars and a staff of dozens so the world can watch as the tip slowly enters his mouth before he deep throats his entire pelvis.

 

The games he puts out can be entertaining as ridiculous schlock, but it sounds like here he took himself super serious (it sounds like there's still some intentionally stupid shit, of course, but less) and that it lessens the overall product. Solid Snake jacking off in a locker looking at a tame poster of a woman in a bikini is the kind of entertainment I want out of Kojima. Not cell phones that are literally handcuffs and a guy named Uhwil Cryalot. Those are fucking stupid, but they're stupid in a way Kojima intends you to take seriously as he waxes philosophical like a hobo behind a dumpster.

[Keyser_Soze]

4 minutes ago, Xbob42 said:

The only people that ever find the drivel he puts on the screen in any way deep (like Dan Ryckert, who has read probably 3 books in his entire life, likely wrestling-related) a

 

Hey he's actually come out and said he's reading more and read some good books (non wrestling related)!

[Xbob42]

1 minute ago, Keyser_Soze said:

 

Hey he's actually come out and said he's reading more and read some good books (non wrestling related)!

I'd really like to see his opinion on the MGS storyline after a few more years of reading. Him talking about it like it was un-ironically the greatest story ever written was very funny, but also a little alarming.

[Keyser_Soze]

1 minute ago, Xbob42 said:

I'd really like to see his opinion on the MGS storyline after a few more years of reading. Him talking about it like it was un-ironically the greatest story ever written was very funny, but also a little alarming.

 

He didn't / doesn't think the games were political

[Moa]

27 minutes ago, Xbob42 said:

Wow, a Kojima game that's surface-level bullshit traipsing around as if it were high art? It's not like that's been his whole M.O. his entire career or anything. The only people that ever find the drivel he puts on the screen in any way deep (like Dan Ryckert, who has read probably 3 books in his entire life, likely wrestling-related) are those who spent their time in school trying to suck their own dicks in the bathroom, an art Kojima has, oddly enough, completely mastered, although he forgoes the bathroom and does so utilizing tens of millions of dollars and a staff of dozens so the world can watch as the tip slowly enters his mouth before he deep throats his entire pelvis.

 

The games he puts out can be entertaining as ridiculous schlock, but it sounds like here he took himself super serious (it sounds like there's still some intentionally stupid shit, of course, but less) and that it lessens the overall product. Solid Snake jacking off in a locker looking at a tame poster of a woman in a bikini is the kind of entertainment I want out of Kojima. Not cell phones that are literally handcuffs and a guy named Uhwil Cryalot. Those are fucking stupid, but they're stupid in a way Kojima intends you to take seriously as he waxes philosophical like a hobo behind a dumpster.

 

With the exception of precisely Dan Ryckert prior to playing Death Stranding and Kojima himself, I don't think anyone thought he was a profound story teller. What bums me out hearing about this game is that despite the presence of a character named Die-Hardman, it plays its story mostly straight and loses the magic that made the MGS storylines fun. I love some dumb fun and I think videogames are a great medium for it, and I'm sad to hear that the king of dumb fun decided to start taking himself seriously and majorly doesn't pull it off to boot.

[Xbob42]

3 minutes ago, Moa said:

 

With the exception of precisely Dan Ryckert prior to playing Death Stranding and Kojima himself, I don't think anyone thought he was a profound story teller.

I wish I could say that was what I've seen. Kojima fans (and I mean Kojima fans, not people who enjoy Kojima's games) have a segment of their population that think incredibly similarly to Ryckert. I can't say it without casting aspersions, which I guess I already did with how Dan doesn't read, it seems people who do absolutely minimal reading/consumption of media beyond movies about blowin' shit up find his work to be mind-blowing.

[johnny]

game sounds like an amazon delivery simulator 

[Xbob42]

7 minutes ago, johnny said:

game sounds like an amazon delivery simulator 

Nah, you get paid in likes, which is positive reinforcement, so clearly it's fantasy.

[johnny]

18 minutes ago, Xbob42 said:

Nah, you get paid in likes, which is positive reinforcement, so clearly it's fantasy.

I mean amazon always asks me about my delivery with a thumbs up or down 👀

[vaxick]

50 minutes ago, johnny said:

game sounds like an amazon delivery simulator 

But at that point, wouldn't you work your way up to convincing entrepreneurs to buy Sprinter vans to deliver in a region Amazon gives them along with ensuring said entrepreneurs hire drivers that struggle to understand the rules of the road.  

[skillzdadirecta]

1 hour ago, Moa said:

 

With the exception of precisely Dan Ryckert prior to playing Death Stranding and Kojima himself, I don't think anyone thought he was a profound story teller. What bums me out hearing about this game is that despite the presence of a character named Die-Hardman, it plays its story mostly straight and loses the magic that made the MGS storylines fun. I love some dumb fun and I think videogames are a great medium for it, and I'm sad to hear that the king of dumb fun decided to start taking himself seriously and majorly doesn't pull it off to boot.

 You didn't watch Skill-ups review of Death Stranding I see

 

 

 

he compares Death Stranding to everything from The Sopranos, to To Kill A mockingbird to the mother fucking Odyssey... Kojima fans, Like Skill-up think the guy is a genius and are not shy about telling you.

[Xbob42]

I really like SkillUp's stuff, but I found that part to be physically embarrassing to listen to. I don't know what it is about Kojima's half-baked high school philosophy nonsense that makes these people cream their britches, but at least it's entertaining to watch them lose their shit and talk about how it's the greatest thing ever made. Then you look at the scene in question and it's some fanfic bullshit copped from like 8 different 80s/90s action movies with dialogue so on-the-nose it performs septoplasty on you.

[skillzdadirecta]

I like Skill-up's stuff too but this was really embarrassing. I think Kojima has the effect he has on a lot of guys because they played Metal Gear Solid in their pre-teens/teens and it was the closet thing to actual literature they had ever experienced at that point.

[fuckle85]

Eh, I'm still thinking comparisons of DS to MGS are like comparing Pacific Rim to Pan's Labyrinth. From second one MGS was always an intentionally over-the-top bonkers anime parody/homage of James Bond and 80's action movies.  And even though DS looks more modern and serious, almost like an Alex Garland or Denis Villeneuve film sometimes, there's still zany moments throughout that remind you of those games.  

 

So if you enjoy MGS there will probably still be a lot to savor, but also at the end of the day Kojima and team might have different creative goals with the experience they're curating and what's expected of the audience for DS, which imho is probably worth keeping in mind before reaching conclusions about how amazing or shit it will be before playing it, or assessing the value of his entire career even though glimpses (all we have right now) of his recent work implies he's got more range than what we saw in the 80's-2010's.  Will it be hot garbage?  Maybe!  Will some fanboys like it no matter what, while others are shocked at how much they don't like it?  Possibly!  Difficult to know to what extent until the entire thing is playable though. 

 

 

 

5 hours ago, skillzdadirecta said:

 You didn't watch Skill-ups review of Death Stranding I see

 

 

 

he compares Death Stranding to everything from The Sopranos, to To Kill A mockingbird to the mother fucking Odyssey... Kojima fans, Like Skill-up think the guy is a genius and are not shy about telling you.

 

Is he someone who's usually credible or is there a history in his writing of early-mid 2000's game writer bro hyperbole?  

[Moa]

4 hours ago, skillzdadirecta said:

he compares Death Stranding to everything from The Sopranos, to To Kill A mockingbird to the mother fucking Odyssey... Kojima fans, Like Skill-up think the guy is a genius and are not shy about telling you.

 

I love how those references reveal that his intellectual curiosity ended about the time he graduated high school and no longer had to pretend to read.

[Dre801]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure I'm never playing this one.

[Bacon]

@AbsolutSurgen You basically got my point. However, I have played shitty games just for their story. Like RDR2. I love the story but it still isn't a good game. 

 

@SaysWho? I never said my favorite games weren't art. That wasn't exactly my point. And while I generally don't do out of my way to call games art, I generally wouldn't stop others from calling them art. Although I do like the idea of calling them crafts over art, but I don't care much either way. 

 

Here is my thing. For the most part, I have no desire to play a game because it is only good art. Like, I love playing games for their stories, but the gameplay usually isn't all that bad, so I don't really feel like I am playing a bad game. And there are good games I haven't played because the story just isn't interesting to me. Visuals and music and important as well, but for me, as long as they aren't bad enough to negatively impact the game then I generally don't think about them unless they are amazingly good. TLoZ: OoT is a game that has/had it all. Music, visuals, gameplay, and story. Everything about that game was amazing at the time. At least it was for me when I was like 12 or something. 

 

Like, I have played visual novels. I don't really think of them as games, but I don't really know there to lump them. They have no gameplay and are only story, music, and visuals. The story doesn't get in in the way of the gameplay and vice versa because there just isn't any gameplay and I am fine with that. The thing I hate is when the gameplay gets in the way of the "art." If there is ever a time I am rushing to get past the gameplay because it is in the way of everything else then it has failed as a video game. You should never want to hurry up and get the gameplay over with. The only thing worse than that is when the gameplay is as shitty as the art. 

 

Death Stranding looks to have some of the most boring gameplay I have ever seen. To me, that just makes it a bad game. The story could be great. I mean, I have never ever played a MGS game but the stories are interesting and I may have watched a few MGS movies on youtube. That is what I plan on doing with DS, and that is also why DS seems like it is going to be a bad game. A good game shouldn't make someone only want to watch the cut scenes on youtube. 

 

Before someone tires to nitpick the thing about visual novels and not playing games just because they are art, let me clarify. I have already said I don't really consider them games. Some actually do have gameplay, but they are called something else that I can't remember... I think, whatever, that's not the point. Visual Novels are more like visual audio books with music were the only part that is considered to be a game is when you pick an option from the multiple choices. But there is no actual gameplay and that is fine. I am not "playing" them for the game. I just want the story(and maybe the porn if it is one of those types), and there is no bad gameplay to get in my way. Like, Visual Novels make for horrible games, but then there really isn't any gameplay. It is just different when compared to something like Death Stranding or actual video games. 

[SaysWho?]

8 hours ago, AbsolutSurgen said:

Having emotional power is different than, being primarily appreciated for it's emotional power -- that is the key to that particular definition.  I don't really feel the need to spend the time Googling anything more.

This goes back to my first point -- there is no consensus on "what is art" among people who are much smarter/have thought much more about the topic than I.  Philosopher's have tried to define and agree on this topic (literally) for hundreds of years.  At one point, some philosophers (I think in the 18th century) tried to split creative work between "arts" and "crafts" -- and IMHO, video games primarily fall on the "crafts" side of things, rather than the "art" side of things.

 

You probably should. 

 

"the various branches of creative activity, such as painting, music, literature, and dance."

 

Crafts typically involve creating something by hand, like chairs and pottery. Video game developers have art developers to assess art assets and creative directors who are trying to bring their vision into their project. It's a wholly different beast.

 

Quote

I think some music, artwork, paintings and stories are art.  Journey may be a video game that I would consider art -- because my appreciation of that experience was primarily based on the emotional impact it had on me (IMHO, it was mechanically very bland, and really not much of a traditional "video game"). 

 

To expand, I do not find that I primarily appreciate video games (in general) for their emotional impact or their aesthetic appeal.  Similarly, IMHO, the John Wick movies, that I thoroughly enjoy, are not art.  The MCU movies I enjoy, are not art.  The pulpy fantasy novels that I enjoy, are not art.  The print I have hanging above my computer desk (of the inside of a helicopter cockpit, firing missiles at a dragon), which I think is awesome (and my wife hates) is not art.  I am omitting them because I do not primarily enjoy them because of "their beauty or emotional power" --  to quote your own definition.  Being art doesn't make something "more worthy" or "more enjoyable" (unless you are a pretentious asshole)-- IMHO, it is merely a descriptor of why the experience is engaging.

 

But, if I go back to the original point you were replying to -- I think @Bacons point was that he doesn't play games for their artistic merit.  (I could be wrong, and if I am, I am sure @Bacon will correct me).

 

It also doesn't matter what someone goes into something wanting to appreciate. Someone can watch The Godfather or Taxi Driver and want to go into it just for some violence; creating a movie is still an art form. So is creating a video game.

 

41 minutes ago, Bacon said:

[snip]

 

I think we're in a lot of agreement here because we both see lots of different strands -- the look, feeling, story, gameplay, etc. -- as to why someone would play or not play a game.