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Mr.Vic20

General Gaming Polygon pulls a Polygon

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24 minutes ago, Bloodporne said:

Hey, finally an outrage topic for me seeing how I have rather extensive facial scarring! Should I read the article and report back? 

 

To clarify, I was mauled by a dog and, among other things, had to have the bottom of my left cheek re-attached. I tell women I was a victim of trench warfare. 

On second thought, I'll retract that. I don't have the energy for arguing in these kinds of threads. 

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1 hour ago, SFLUFAN said:

Oh no - the developers aren't "lazy" for using fat zombie types in games.

 

The developers are "lazy" for using zombies in the first place!

 

Yup, perfectly okay with that takeaway.  That kind of laziness is a bigger issue in games than being culturally insensitive, generally speaking.  Even then, zombies aren’t so bad, really.

 

I don’t think Rage 2 lacks identity or a creative spark.  So maybe it’s just that because of that, this cleft lip thing is what gets fixated on.

 

1 hour ago, Paperclyp said:

Is that recent? It’s been around for ages. As far as insensitivity is concerned though, it depends and it’s a sliding scale. 

 

I’d agree context matters.  I’m reminded of RE5’s controversy over setting the game in Africa.  I think they had creative standing to do it, in spite of the charges of racism that came. Or other countries banning war games because of who gets the heroic/liberator treatment.

 

But generally, I think the decency line is pretty far out with monster designs, and that’s a good thing.   They’re monsters.

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I...quite like Polygon. Chris Plante seems like a totally genuine and frankly terrific human being if you've followed his career and content. I find it hard to believe the guy is posting this disingenuously as seems to be suggested in this thread. 

 

I often wonder if the reputation - Polygon being Polygon - just becomes common "knowledge" among message board users who aren't actually terribly familiar with the typical content of a website. The only person I consistently disagreed with or thought was out of line at Polygon was Arthur Gies, and he has been gone for some time (he wrote their infamous Witcher 3 review). 

 

This also isn't a vague article written editorial-style. It's a very specific opinion from a very specific person, who documented not only specific (long-past) conversations, verbatim, about how he addressed his feelings to the creators, but his immediate hopefulness following that conversation. There's an arc to this that is completed with this piece. It's not a contrived click-baity thing concocted just at the game went live. 

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When I think of bad Polygon writing, I think of that infamous Nier 1 article. Or the Mario Kart sales analysis one.  Being stubbornly clueless or overthinking things is part of the stereotype.  Even before getting to an article like this (which isn’t really offensive to me, I just disagree with the sentiment).

 

Maybe it’s not totally fair to say, but I do have more respect for sites like USgamer that haven’t ever sunk to the same lows.

 

Then again, a lot of sites have come close...

 

 

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I get the impression he's more upset that he spoke to the developers, felt a sense of empowerment off the fact he thought he was going to shape the next game and they were going to make changes based on his remarks, and is now more outraged he feels ignored.  He specifically said he got emotional after speaking to them, feeling he was using his position of being able to speak to developers to make a difference.  Is he really that outraged at the character design, or the fact the developer didn't find him important enough to change their entire game over.  

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45 minutes ago, JPDunks4 said:

I get the impression he's more upset that he spoke to the developers, felt a sense of empowerment off the fact he thought he was going to shape the next game and they were going to make changes based on his remarks, and is now more outraged he feels ignored.  He specifically said he got emotional after speaking to them, feeling he was using his position of being able to speak to developers to make a difference.  Is he really that outraged at the character design, or the fact the developer didn't find him important enough to change their entire game over.  

 

That's my sense as well. That being said, @Paperclyp has a more charitable interpretation and there isn't anything wrong with that, there are just different questions that need to be answered.

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I mean, I have a freakishly large dick but I didn’t get all mad that the one dude with a big dick from big little lies was a bad guy.

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This mediocre ass game simply isn't worth any sort of emotional investment from any angle. I would absolutely describe the entire thing as lazy. I think it's totally possible to be overworked in constant crunch and still make a lazy piece of shit. Hell, you're more likely to take the lazy route after you've been working nonstop and just want it fucking done.


Sure, he didn't change the game for the better by talking to the developers, but it looks like no one at any point in the creative process changed the game for the better at all, so he's not exactly in an exclusive club, disabilities aside!

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I am fat. Fat people in games are often evil, vile, and rapists if they aren't the jolly santa type. I am more than fine with it and there is no reason to stop it. I get that being fat isn't the same thing, but eh. And as a fat fuck, I don't want to play as a fat MC either, nor do I have a desire to play as an MC with birth defects.

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Polygon has some hot takes, but I'm not so sure this is one of them.  Some of the creature designs straight-up look like caricatures of someone born with a cleft lip (The part where he said the mutants look exactly like his baby pictures was hopefully exaggerated though, yikes). 

 

There's literally hundreds of ways to portray an enemy mutated creature without basing their creepiness off an existing medical condition that causes someone grief. It's insensitive and uncreative.

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4 minutes ago, fuckle85 said:

Polygon has some hot takes, but I'm not so sure this is one of them.  Some of the creature designs straight-up look like caricatures of someone born with a cleft lip (The part where he said the mutants look exactly like his baby pictures was hopefully exaggerated though, yikes). 

 

There's literally hundreds of ways to portray an enemy mutated creature without basing their creepiness off an existing medical condition that causes someone grief. It's insensitive and uncreative.

 

You resemble all the negative remarks made about this topic.

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3 minutes ago, Man of Culture said:

 

You resemble all the negative remarks made about this topic.

ok bud

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6 minutes ago, fuckle85 said:

ok 

Where, in your mind, does offense, insensitivity and uncreative design end and quality, well done and thoughtful design begin if we are seeking to be minimally offensive?

 

 

If an enemy has a twitching animation, you risk offending people with tourette's.

 

If an enemy speaks to "people" that clearly don't exist, you risk offending people with schizophrenia.

 

If an enemy has an exposed spine, you risk offending people who suffered through spinal bifida.

 

There is no winning for developers when it comes to this game of perpetual offense for otherwise innocuous design decisions that make no actual attempt to denigrate people who might actually suffer from any potential malady of which a designer sees fit to attribute to their enemy designs. Context and intent do matter here.

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3 hours ago, Man of Culture said:

Where, in your mind, does offense, insensitivity and uncreative design end and quality, well done and thoughtful design begin?

 

 

If an enemy has a twitching animation, you risk offending people with tourette's.

 

If an enemy speaks to "people" that clearly don't exist, you risk offending people with schizophrenia.

 

If an enemy has an exposed spine, you risk offending people who suffered through spinal bifida.

 

There is no winning for developers when it comes to this game of perpetual offense for otherwise innocuous design decisions that make no actual attempt to denigrate people who might actually suffer from any potential malady that a designer sees fit to attribute to their enemy designs. Context and intent do matter here.

 

There's plenty of creative decisions that can be made to prevent any of that stuff coming off as weird/uncomfortable.  In this case, have some characters who aren't intende to be deranged, cretinous mutantmonsters have cleft lips as well.  Don't use creature design in a way that contextualizes the appearance of a cleft lip itself as something that should be a source of horror.  Tons of ways to tackle it more empathetically without effecting the gameplay at all.

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6 hours ago, Paperclyp said:

Are derivative or uninspired any better? What would you have us call it? Again, it doesn’t mean the person himself is lazy / unoriginal / whatever. It’s just a *whatever applicable adjective you prefer* instance. 

 

I’m a fan of many lazy works, and I can still call it out as such and respect the creator at the same time. 

 

"Lazy" would have to be an armchair critic's preferred term.

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3 minutes ago, Duderino said:

 

"Lazy" would have to be an armchair critic's preferred term.

Would you say that it's a "lazy" critic's preferred term?

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31 minutes ago, SFLUFAN said:

Would you say that it's a "lazy" critic's preferred term?

Idk, maybe ask Fillip Miucin? 

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8 minutes ago, Duderino said:

Idk, maybe ask Fillip Miucin? 

I think that would be "fraudulent"!

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54 minutes ago, SFLUFAN said:

I think that would be "fraudulent"!

Is plagiarism, when your job is to give your critical opinion, not lazy?

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3 hours ago, fuckle85 said:

 

There's plenty of creative decisions that can be made to prevent any of that stuff coming off as weird/uncomfortable.  In this case, have some characters who aren't intende to be deranged, cretinous mutantmonsters have cleft lips as well.  Don't use creature design in a way that contextualizes the appearance of a cleft lip itself as something that should be a source of horror.  Tons of ways to tackle it more empathetically without effecting the game at all.

 

This solution is still inadequate considering you’d still be killing hundreds of cleft lip horror monsters.  This idea that a few good guy npcs with it could change the tone of all that slaughter is naive.

 

If the goal is to be culturally sensitive, the only real option is to take it out.  Also, all traits a person with a disfigurement, disability or marginalized trait could be offended by if portrayed as horror.

 

At that point, I doubt such monsters would have many humanized traits at all.

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1 minute ago, crispy4000 said:

 

This solution is still inadequate considering you’d still be killing hundreds of cleft lip horror monsters.  This idea that a few good guy npcs with it could change the tone of all that slaughter is naive.

 

If the goal is to be culturally sensitive, the only real option is to take it out.  Also, all traits a person with a disfigurement, disability or marginalized trait could be offended by if portrayed as horror.

 

At that point, I doubt such monsters would have many humanized traits at all.

 

 

 

If you say so, fella.

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8 hours ago, fuckle85 said:

If you say so, fella.

 

I’m open for a discussion on it.

 

I’ve admittedly said the same thing several times now about the death toll / cognitive dissonance issue. I don’t think there’s much interest.  Still think it’s the elephant in the room here.

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23 minutes ago, crispy4000 said:

 

I’m open for a discussion on it.

 

I’ve admittedly said the same thing several times now about the death toll / cognitive dissonance issue. I don’t think there’s much interest.  Still think it’s the elephant in the room here.

 

I'm not!

 

But mainly because of your despicably insensitive opinions on fat people in this thread (or LBGT - large big guys in t-shirts - to use the preferred nomenclature).  How DARE you, sir. All of your opinions are hereby void because of that 

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12 hours ago, fuckle85 said:

 

I'm not!

 

But mainly because of your despicably insensitive opinions on fat people in this thread (or LBGT - large big guys in t-shirts - to use the preferred nomenclature).  How DARE you, sir. All of your opinions are hereby void because of that 

 

If this isn’t sarcasm...

 

What even are the opinions on fat people I’ve given?

 

I used it as an example to show that the argument can be taken further than birth defects or disfigurement.

 

I don’t think people are typically aware of how many times overweight characters are portrayed as bad guys, as Bacon said.  They have as much to complain about as anyone else.

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