General Gaming Polygon pulls a Polygon

[Mr.Vic20]

https://www.polygon.com/2019/5/13/18617783/rage-2-impressions-characters-enemies-mutants

 

I'm open to improving the world, including people, etc, but this is...what is this? No polygon, the true abomination is you. 

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

I'm not unsympathetic to the notion that the use of  deformity/disability is a "lazy shorthand" means of denoting a person or a group as "the enemy".  It's similar to how dark-skinned individuals were used in earlier entertainment mediums.

[Mr.Vic20]

2 minutes ago, SFLUFAN said:

I'm not unsympathetic to the notion that the use of  deformity/disability is a "lazy shorthand" means of denoting a person or a group as "the enemy".  It's similar to how dark-skinned individuals were used in earlier entertainment mediums.

And I won't think that was cool either, but these are literal post apocalypse mutants. Should dragons not have scales because some people have shingles? 

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

Just now, Mr.Vic20 said:

And I won't think that was cool either, but these are literal post apocalypse mutants. Should dragons not have scales because some people have shingles? 

I think you're missing the point. 

 

The problem is largely due to the sole representation of the deformed/disabled being negative - that's the "lazy shorthand".  If those individuals are also represented positively, then the issue is largely alleviated.

[Mr.Vic20]

Just now, SFLUFAN said:

I think you're missing the point. 

 

The problem is largely due to the sole representation of the deformed/disabled being negative - that's the "lazy shorthand".  If those individuals are also represented positively, then the issue is largely alleviated.

I don't think that's what's going on here. I think someone wants clicks.

[Keyser_Soze]

1 minute ago, Mr.Vic20 said:

I don't think that's what's going on here. I think someone wants clicks.

 

I think you're a bastard who is hating on people with physical deformities!

[Mr.Vic20]

1 minute ago, Keyser_Soze said:

 

I think you're a bastard who is hating on people with physical deformities!

 That does sound like me! 

[Keyser_Soze]

Also I don't think this is a "polygon being polygon" article because I believe this notion has come up before, and also there was some article about all evil guys having facial hair too.

 

And stuff. It is something to think about. Good guys can be deformed too! Maybe they should have just turned this into a Toxic Avenger game.

[Mr.Vic20]

Yes, the argument that something unpleasing to the eye = evil is a long running theme in humanity's story telling tool box. But are we really saying the time has come to put away fantastical monsters? Days gone has Freakers, so are we going to write a "not all bath salt peoples are bad" article? Do we have to make a bunch of mutants that have effected a secret society of high culture to demonstrate within the world's narrative that cleft palette =/= mindless evil? It seems dramatic for the sake of shock and clicks. 

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

If we recognize how worn and tired these tropes have become, then why not make the best effort possible to work around them?

 

Perhaps the time HAS come to put away the "old" fantastical monsters that have their roots in "old" human understandings of the world because there sure as hell is no shortage of new ones to choose from.

[XxEvil AshxX]

Okay, so the guy has a cleft lip, and so do the mutants in Rage 2? 

 

I mean, is it far-fetched to believe (in video game terms) that a cleft lip would be a common mutation to people exposed to radiation that also made them crazy? What if it made their hair fall out as well? Are all bald guys going to be offended too? Will there be a call to arms from cancer patients?

 

I understand why this guy is upset, but he's also projecting himself onto all those heads as if the devs meant to tell him personally that he should be mounted on a wall because he has a cleft. I havent played the game yet but i'm willing to bet there are a lot of other mutations the guy is ignoring as he fixates on that one feature.

 

According to his logic, The Fugitive paints all amputees as conspiring murderers.

 

[Mr.Vic20]

10 minutes ago, SFLUFAN said:

If we recognize how worn and tired these tropes have become, then why not make the best effort possible to work around them?

 

Perhaps the time HAS come to put away the "old" fantastical monsters that have their roots in "old" human understandings of the world because there sure as hell is no shortage of new ones to choose from.

I absolutely accept that we should challenge ourselves to rise to the nuance of our current awareness, but perhaps not in every instance. Look at Doom. Doom, is an amazing reboot, specifically because it sheds nuance of narrative for exquisite martial parley! Those exchanges are its form of dance, and the dance is good! But, its a violent, viscous, dance and it absolutely,  drenches itself in the blood of the old ways. It is a revelry of violence. Its enemies are hunks of flesh twisted and stitched into hate machines.  Any most really loved it! Not everything needs to be enlightened. We do need to advance social causes, but we also need to appreciate intent and not make everything about how exploitative everything is.  Humans are story tellers, and violence and hate are also an aspect of that library of stories. 

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

18 minutes ago, Mr.Vic20 said:

I absolutely accept that we should challenge ourselves to rise to the nuance of our current awareness, but perhaps not in every instance. Look at Doom. Doom, is an amazing reboot, specifically because it sheds nuance of narrative for exquisite martial parley! Those exchanges are its form of dance, and the dance is good! But, its a violent, viscous, dance and it absolutely,  drenches itself in the blood of the old ways. It is a revelry of violence. Its enemies are hunks of flesh twisted and stitched into hate machines.  Any most really loved it! Not everything needs to be enlightened. We do need to advance social causes, but we also need to appreciate intent and not make everything about how exploitative everything is.  Humans are story tellers, and violence and hate are also an aspect of that library of stories. 

 

The adversaries in DOOM are literally fantastical creatures that have no real direct analog in the human experience. 

 

I should have not been so general in my previous statement as to imply that ALL of the old fantastical creatures should be re-evaluated, but those that are clearly rooted in an archaic fear of the human "other" based on factors that have nothing to do with actual actions should be.

[Mr.Vic20]

8 minutes ago, SFLUFAN said:

 

The adversaries in DOOM are literally fantastical creatures that have no real direct analog in the human experience.  I should have not been so general in my previous statement as to imply that ALL of the old fantastical creatures should be re-evaluated.

And the guy in question is a superhuman mutant from the future that probably would be dead in like 3 seconds in reality because, forget the guy's face for a second, I'm guessing the his organs aren't doing so well!  This to me is a clear case of projection by the writer. If the writer had taken time to make the case for deeper consideration, rather than to play the blame/I'm hurt! game, which is largely the style of this article, then I would be more than happy to consider the points raised (and still reject them  in this particular instance). As it is though, this is click bate. I hate using that argument because I think that many bastardy, uncaring people hide behind such reasoning, but I also think there is money to be made off of social causes and we can easily lose the thread the other way as well. Balance people, just a little balance is all I'm asking for. 

[Keyser_Soze]

I think with companies with Microsoft embracing people with disabilities (and by the way some of them look a more blunt person might label them freaks) and then they end up playing something like this, it's could be saddening for them. They are represented as a freak and they have to kill people that they would otherwise probably connect with.

 

It's not isolated to this writer, there are others out there.

 

Also, as far as Mad Max goes, Fury Road for the most part leaned on "weird" being freakish than deformed people being freakish. Corpus colossus being the exception of course.

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

Furthermore, in Fury Road, the primary hero has one arm and another heroic character is one of the mutant freaks.  This is a clear change in characterization from the previous films in the series.

[crispy4000]

1 hour ago, SFLUFAN said:

I think you're missing the point. 

 

The problem is largely due to the sole representation of the deformed/disabled being negative - that's the "lazy shorthand".  If those individuals are also represented positively, then the issue is largely alleviated.

 

What about the size of these monsters foreheads?  Surely those with macrocephaly have as much to be annoyed about.  They might actually have it worse in popular media.  It might be telling that no one brought that up yet, and that Polygon missed it.

 

I don't see this sort of design as "lazy shorthand."  Monster designs are frequently about exaggerated, contorted facial features.  Eyes.  Lips.  Teeth.  Ears.  Skin.  Etc.  I'd never say no to positive portrayals that humanize those features.  They're often quite engaging (a reason itself to do it).  But I don't feel they're necessary to counter weigh the thousands of disfigured human-esque beings you'll kill in any given horror fantasy game.  As if that was even possible.
 

[Remarkableriots]

20 minutes ago, SFLUFAN said:

Furthermore, in Fury Road, the primary hero has one arm and another heroic character is one of the mutant freaks.  This is a clear change in characterization from the previous films in the series.

This scene always makes me feel sad for Master Blaster. 

[Dodger]

Just make every bad guy faction in every video game nazi's since you can always safely kill nazi's.

[AbsolutSurgen]

This is another example of the current culture of outrage, that Polygon immerses itself in.

 

"Someone" can be offended by how almost any human-like villain is portrayed.

49 minutes ago, Dodger said:

Just make every bad guy faction in every video game nazi's since you can always safely kill nazi's.

I even think there are some people who find offense in how Nazis are negatively portrayed.  (For the record, I am not one of them.)

[finaljedi]

3 minutes ago, mikechorney said:

This is another example of the current culture of outrage, that Polygon immerses itself in.

 

"Someone" can be offended by how almost any human-like villain is portrayed.

I even think there are some people who find offense in how Nazis are negatively portrayed.  (For the record, I am not one of them.)

 

Wasn't there a group upset over how bad guys were portrayed in that last Wolfenstein game?

[Dodger]

8 minutes ago, mikechorney said:

This is another example of the current culture of outrage, that Polygon immerses itself in.

 

"Someone" can be offended by how almost any human-like villain is portrayed.

I even think there are some people who find offense in how Nazis are negatively portrayed.  (For the record, I am not one of them.)

 

4 minutes ago, finaljedi said:

 

Wasn't there a group upset over how bad guys were portrayed in that last Wolfenstein game?

 

 

Yeah but those are white supremacists and nobody cares about them. 

[AbsolutSurgen]

4 minutes ago, finaljedi said:

 

Wasn't there a group upset over how bad guys were portrayed in that last Wolfenstein game?

I wasn't aware of it before now.  You're right.

[Brian]

They can’t be trusted. Look what happened to Leonidas. 

[crispy4000]

Yup, it's not even just limited to 'monsters.'  The same argument could be made for people with burns or extreme scarring.

 

In this world view, pretty much any Bond villain ever could be taken to task for associating those things with evil.    But nope, we need good guys looking like that to show us that they don't always want to destroy the world as we know it.

 

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

3 minutes ago, crispy4000 said:

But nope, we need good guys looking like that to show us that they don't always want to destroy the world as we know it.

Sure, why not?

[crispy4000]

9 minutes ago, SFLUFAN said:

Sure, why not?

 

If that's your takeaway instead of "Yes, they should" then its not a problem that needs to be fixed.

[Chris-]

I think the author is being a bit melodramatic (especially since cleft palate is pretty easily and widely corrected), but I don't see how it is objectionable to point out that it is lazy and unnecessary character design. Dismissing that point simply because it's 'click bait' is some real forest-for-the-trees shit.

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

5 minutes ago, crispy4000 said:

 

If that's your takeaway instead of "Yes, they should" then its not a problem that needs to be fixed.

I'm putting the onus on those who don't think that it's an issue to explain why it isn't one as I have stated in this thread why I perceive that it is.

[crispy4000]

8 minutes ago, Chris- said:

I don't see how it is objectionable to point out that it is lazy and unnecessary character design. Dismissing that point simply because it's 'click bait' is some real forest-for-the-trees shit.

 

Objectionable or 'click bait' isn't way I'd put it.  But I wouldn't understand how a cleft lip is any more lazy for monster design than tropes like sharp teeth, off colored skin tones or yellow beady eyes.  Compared to the paradigm, it's actually somewhat inspired.

 

[Chris-]

1 minute ago, crispy4000 said:

 

Objectionable or 'click bait' isn't the word I'd use.  But I don't understand how a cleft lip is any more lazy for monster design than tropes like sharp teeth or yellow beady eyes.  Compared to the paradigm, it's actually somewhat inspired.

 

 

Because cleft lip/palate is a real birth defect that causes real people real suffering. 

[Chris-]

1 minute ago, Man of Culture said:

It's not that people have an issue with diversity in cast or protagonists, there are plenty of games with non-white, female or even disabled characters and protagonists which are widely enjoyed. 

 

Utter bullshit, and you know it.

[crispy4000]

Just now, Chris- said:

 

Because cleft lip/palate is a real birth defect that causes real people real suffering. 

 

As with any number of other disfigurations/defects that monsters get portrayed with.  Misformed jaws, giant foreheads, missing eyes, etc.

We could take this all the way to fat shaming if you want, for the big bellied monsters.  Its limitless.

[Paperclyp]

Ah yes the nuanced discussion we all deserve. 

[Chris-]

35 minutes ago, Man of Culture said:

And? A nothing burger is a nothing burger.

 

Deus Ex Human Revolution - Man nearly loses his entire body and becomes the poster child for augmented amputees.

 

Sly Cooper (Bentley) - Paralyzed Turtle and super genius modifies his wheel chair and uses his brains to aid Sly Cooper in his adventures.

 

Hell Blade: Senua's Sacrifice - A female warrior suffering from severe psychosis tries to save the soul of her dead lover.

 

 

I just named these right off the top of my head and I'm sure I'll find more if I actually take the time to do some digging. They're all well received titles with well liked characters. You're being a retard about this.

 

The amount of outrage I could dig up on 'forced diversity' is so evident, I don't think I actually need to bother. Are there examples to the contrary? Sure. But the second a Sucker Punch designer says, 'We thought it was important to represent differently abled people in our game', cue 15 minute outrage YouTube videos by the man-baby contigent.

 

37 minutes ago, crispy4000 said:

 

 As with any number of other disfigurations/defects that monsters get portrayed with.  Misformed jaws, giant foreheads, missing eyes, etc.

We could take this all the way to fat shaming if you want, for the big bellied monsters.  Its limitless.

 

Sure, I suppose. But that just rolls into the points @SFLUFAN has been making: it's lazy writing/design, and there is no reason there can't be more balanced representation when it comes to protagonists.