General Gaming Final Fantasy VII Remake OT - Big Trouble in Little Midgar

[Keyser_Soze]

5 minutes ago, Nokt said:

  Hide contents

My issue is that even if its a ballsy move, it wasn't sold as this at all. It wasn't sold as a reboot or a sequel, there are several sources citing that they will remain faithful to the plot points. Its literally a bait and switch. They were purposefully vague with what would be changing just so people would play and have the shock value be there for the ending.

The other part is the last chapter of the game is all sorts out of whack with power scaling and pacing. You go from fighting basic enemies to fighting Fate itself and slicing through buildings like cake while fighting Sephiroth. Yet in the previous chapter cloud couldn't even cut through a vault door. Personally time-travel paradoxes and alternative timelines have never been pulled off in a good way and adding it to FFVII is a huge mistake. I'm in this ride just for the fact that I think its going to crash and burn as the series goes on, but gladly would love to be proven wrong.

 

 

I think it's a catch 22. If they said anything it would have kind of spoiled the game. Also, you know that all the fanboys would have been right from the start. However, if they were straightforward with the game maybe some people would have been curious and jumped aboard.

[Nokt]

1 minute ago, Keyser_Soze said:

I think it's a catch 22. If they said anything it would have kind of spoiled the game. Also, you know that all the fanboys would have been right from the start. However, if they were straightforward with the game maybe some people would have been curious and jumped aboard.

Simply calling it a reboot wouldn't give anything major away and tells consumers right from the get go that its not going to be the same. Also not being quoted for how "faithful" this remake will be would probably go a long way.

[Keyser_Soze]

20 minutes ago, Nokt said:

Simply calling it a reboot wouldn't give anything major away and tells consumers right from the get go that its not going to be the same. Also not being quoted for how "faithful" this remake will be would probably go a long way.

 

It's interesting because at face value the name Final Fantasy VII Remake seems a bit too literal and also silly at the same time.

 

But

 

Spoiler

Once you play the game and see that is actually Sepiroth who has remade the game things make a lot more sense. This is something they couldn't actually express to people because it would spoil the game obviously.

 

[johnny]

Spoiler

 

I think there’s some baby ass babies on the internet and some on d1p who are upset about the story not being an actual remake and the use of the word when it’s a reimagining. Couldn’t care less about any of that. Just seems like typical people on the internet shouting at the sky. We’ve all been there. 
 

I don’t really have a problem with the power scaling when you go from smacking around shinra grunts to defeating fate itself. I see why some would, but it doesn’t really bother me. Maybe because of how well done the game is. Doesn’t shit like this happen in anime? For somebody who doesn’t watch or care for anime, I thought this whole thing was great. I think a sequel would benefit from some kind of carry over where maybe you don’t get to keep everything from the first one, but can pick a weapon for each character as well as some materia. 
 

the ending story stuff is messy but only because it’s hard to understand especially if you don’t know the original. What they actually DID, no problems with. Would agree that time travel can make it get messy so hopefully it is used vary sparingly in the future. 

 

 

[Xbob42]

Spoiler

My biggest complaint is that the story (at the end) is bad, not that it's different. They did a ton of different stuff from the original game and most of it was really good. The last few hours were straight up lame ass limp-wristed Kingdom Hearts coward writing where no one's allowed to actually die because Nomura's a fucking chickenshit who will use magic ghosts to retcon a story for a happier ending. And if you think it's going to go any differently from here on out, you haven't played Kingdom Hearts, the game of immortal characters.

 

[Nokt]

Can we just get the title altered since its basically all spoilers being posted at this point? Quoting spoilers is terrible.

[Keyser_Soze]

4 hours ago, Nokt said:

Can we just get the title altered since its basically all spoilers being posted at this point? Quoting spoilers is terrible.

 

No because @SaysWho? just started playing. But when he finishes we can change it!

 

Or just use Bacon's thread for the spoiler thread since it was spoilers from the start.

[Xbob42]

But I like the spoiler tags because on first glance it makes it look like my posts are the same length as sane peoples'!

[Remarkableriots]

 

[Greatoneshere]

Edited, trying to fix.  

[Spork3245]

9 hours ago, Greatoneshere said:

 

Well:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

It's ballsy to me because on a meta-level, what they're trying to say and do with regard to what a "remake" means is pretty interesting given how pandering and fan-servicey this could have been just as a straight remake. Even the Eurogamer video (which was helpful for me), done by someone who doesn't like the ending much, says the ending is at least "gutsy", which whether one likes it or not, it is, for better or worse. And while I share your concerns about retconning events for a happier potential ending, we have no idea how the story will unfold - it is presumptuous to assume no one will die in future episodes, they've merely just set up the premise that the future won't play out as we know it. Whether that ultimately works is left for future episodes. I didn't feel the escalation was too crazy. While the power levels, I agree, don't always make sense or are consistent, that's not much different to me than Marvel movies and the vagueness of some of the characters' superpowers, but that's a much smaller issue to me and one you accept as part of JRPG/anime conventions. It sounds like you didn't really enjoy it, but for me, given we know more episodes are coming, a lot of the stuff they set up at the end could pay off later and the fact that Sephiroth is literally fucking with fan expectations is almost a meta way to hate the character more. It's an interesting commentary.
 

 

 

 

Just to address you points:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

1. I agree with you that the butterfly effect explanation makes sense, but I think the question still stands that why would we want to fight fate if it worked out the first time?

 

2. Yeah, I agree future episodes will probably provide a clearer answer (hopefully) on this. Why Sephiroth would go back to the beginning of OG FF7 in an alternate timeline rather than the one he originated in is confusing, and wouldn't there then be multiple post-OG FF7 Sephiroth's running around messing up timelines similar to the one from the OG FF7 we played if there are multiple timelines?

 

3. Those are some good ideas that I considered as well - it's something they are going to have to seriously address because while the Assess description for Whisper Harbinger says it is "an accretion of Whispers that connects all times and all spaces by the planet's will itself" explains that there are multiple dimensions/timelines. So that's something. 

 

4. Yeah, Whisper Harbinger's description hints at the same so I guess it's possible. Time travel is a messy plot device to add to FF7 I think.  

 

5. I agree with all your points, and that at this point a lot of our thoughts are just speculation for sure.

 

6. So even the future spirits of our very characters from the OG timeline don't want this new crew to change things . . . so maybe we shouldn't be changing things?  

 

Spoiler

1.) They don't realize what they're fighting until the end, plus, what they are shown is generally bad: a destroyed Midgar on a seemingly barren Gaia, Aerith's dead body, etc. Also, Sephiroth continues to be able to be reborn and is never dead in the OG timeline - I think they'd want to figure out a way to perma kill him, no?

 

2.) The thought is that him going back caused an alternate timeline if he did indeed went back instead of just transferring his memories through the lifestream. Think like the "Cell Saga" in Dragon Ball in regards to Trunks and Cell going back in time. However, if it's the memory-thing I've been mentioning, I assume that Sephiroth can only receive the memories upon joining with the lifestream (ie: after his first death in Nibbleheim), which means he couldn't "go" further back than that. Or, at least, if he did time-hop, he hopped in at a certain point and stayed there, he wouldn't be doing it continually as, if there are multiple Sephiroths, only the latest "reborn" one would have the ability to time-travel... if that makes sense? You could also think in terms of Thanos from End Game.

 

3.)  

 

4.)

 

5.) 

 

6.) I assume it's them resisting change or not wanting to be overwritten or knowing that having multiple timelines can be damaging...? No way to know yet  

 

[Greatoneshere]

6 minutes ago, Spork3245 said:

 

  Hide contents

1.) They don't realize what they're fighting until the end, plus, what they are shown is generally bad: a destroyed Midgar on a seemingly barren Gaia, Aerith's dead body, etc. Also, Sephiroth continues to be able to be reborn and is never dead in the OG timeline - I think they'd want to figure out a way to perma kill him, no?

 

2.) The thought is that him going back caused an alternate timeline if he did indeed went back instead of just transferring his memories through the lifestream. Think like the "Cell Saga" in Dragon Ball in regards to Trunks and Cell going back in time. However, if it's the memory-thing I've been mentioning, I assume that Sephiroth can only receive the memories upon joining with the lifestream (ie: after his first death in Nibbleheim), which means he couldn't "go" further back than that. Or, at least, if he did time-hop, he hopped in at a certain point and stayed there, he wouldn't be doing it continually as, if there are multiple Sephiroths, only the latest "reborn" one would have the ability to time-travel... if that makes sense? You could also think in terms of Thanos from End Game.

 

3.)  

 

4.)

 

5.) 

 

6.) I assume it's them resisting change or not wanting to be overwritten or knowing that having multiple timelines can be damaging...? No way to know yet  

 

 

Thanks for all the help, I think I've sorted through the ending a lot better now - much appreciated. I look forward to seeing what Episode II confirms, etc. in like, 10 years.  

[Spork3245]

19 minutes ago, Greatoneshere said:

 

Thanks for all the help, I think I've sorted through the ending a lot better now - much appreciated. I look forward to seeing what Episode II confirms, etc. in like, 10 years.  

 

I'd say about 80% of everything I posted is speculation but does seem to be the two generally accepted theories out there, so, grain of salt and all that. I have a lot of hope for the sequels and SE is, surprisingly, already developing and working on the next chapter. Considering SE scrapped the initial build of FF7 Remake that was shown in 2015 back in late 2017 (I think they changed dev teams too?), they actually put this together in less than 3-years (unless I'm mistaken), so I'm hoping the next chapters won't take forever.

Spoiler

It will all depend on where they go in the next chapters to how much I ultimately love this game - as of now, it's fantastic, IMO, but if they go down a super convoluted rabbit hole instead of the craziness in this chapter mostly just being the message of "hey, it's going to be like 70-80% of what you remember, but we are deviating to give you something new".

 

[Greatoneshere]

1 minute ago, Spork3245 said:

 

I'd say about 80% of everything I posted is speculation but does seem to be the two generally accepted theories out there, so, grain of salt and all that. I have a lot of hope for the sequels and SE is, surprisingly, already developing and working on the next chapter. Considering SE scrapped the initial build of FF7 Remake that was shown in 2015 back in late 2017 (I think they changed dev teams too?), they actually put this together in less than 3-years (unless I'm mistaken), so I'm hoping the next chapters won't take forever.

  Hide contents

It will all depend on where they go in the next chapters to how much I ultimately love this game - as of now, it's fantastic, IMO, but if they go down a super convoluted rabbit hole instead of the craziness in this chapter mostly just being the message of "hey, it's going to be like 70-80% of what you remember, but we are deviating to give you something new".

 

 

Yeah, my feelings are much the same. 

[SaysWho?]

Please no spoilers.

[Keyser_Soze]

1 hour ago, Greatoneshere said:

Can someone fix my spoiler tags? Not sure why they aren't working?

 

Maybe edit, delete or ask a mod to actually put the text in spoiler tags? It's just sitting out there raw bruh!

[Keyser_Soze]

7 minutes ago, SaysWho? said:

Please no spoilers.

 

I want to apologize to you. Later I realized I should have said: @SaysWho? will be the one who decides if you can post spoilers 

[Greatoneshere]

Not sure why spoiler tags aren't working anymore for me. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Greatoneshere]

Yep, I give up.  

[Nokt]

1 minute ago, Greatoneshere said:

 

Well:

 

I think it's entirely fair to be skeptical - if this was the end of the entire game, I'd be annoyed too. But we know this is just Episode I, so the groundwork they've laid down could really pay off down the road. All this stuff is being introduced for reasons, presumably, so I doubt it's just going to "crash and burn". Regardless, all we can do is judge what we have actually played, and if someone's biggest issues with a game are "it's different and I was 'tricked'" and "the pacing and power scaling are out of whack at the end", I'd say those aren't really big deals compared to music, graphics, gameplay, and the story otherwise told. Evangelion was rebooted similarly and got similar ire from some fans for being different. False advertising also doesn't bother me - we've been bat and switched with other games like MGS2 and I loved it there as well. I want art to surprise me in interesting ways, and this fell along those lines. I agree about time travel being a real potential issue, we'll see how it goes on that front.

 

 

Well:

 

Again, I think you're being very presumptuous. I said there is an interesting meta-commentary here, not that the game can't stand on its own without it. I think it's important to remember the game's story isn't over. While I share your concerns about this becoming as convoluted as Kingdom Hearts, stories can become so esoteric you lose the dramatic thrust of the story, which isn't good. And it's pretty clear that this remake/reboot/reimagining is not for newbies. If newbies who never played the original played this, I agree, the ending would be very confusing for them, but it's pretty clear this isn't for them, I'm not gonna knock a game made for nostalgia and fans of the original (from an interesting meta perspective) not working for people who have never played it (since this is a sequel in a way anyway). 

 

It's not that I didn't notice the escalation, it's that I wasn't surprised by it. Almost every FF goes overboard in the end, and this one does too. I'm not sure what threats still exist for the group but, again, that's for the future to tell, not for me to presume that this episode is bad because I can't see the future. And resetting power levels between games happens all the time, see Mass Effect 2 for a good example, and I didn't see people complaining when it happened there, or in Metroid Fusion and tons of other games. I'm in agreement about Kingdom Hearts, and I worry about the same, but with more episodes to come, the story they have seeded could be very interesting. If it goes the way you think it will go, I agree, I wouldn't be happy either, we'll see. But what they're attempting here is different - you're biggest issues seem to be an imbalance of power levels (which was the case throughout the game, not just the end) and that we've done such epic stuff there's nowhere left for the story to go. The first is a small critique in the grand scheme of things, and the second we won't know until more episodes come out. Let's not lose the forest for the trees - even with those two issues, the game did plenty else right, so to hate the game on two pretty small critiques overall is your right, but seems not so objective to me.

Ditch the s at the end of spoiler

[Greatoneshere]

Just now, Nokt said:

Ditch the s at the end of spoiler

 

Well that explains it, total brain fart, thanks. 

[Greatoneshere]

9 hours ago, Nokt said:

  Reveal hidden contents

My issue is that even if its a ballsy move, it wasn't sold as this at all. It wasn't sold as a reboot or a sequel, there are several sources citing that they will remain faithful to the plot points. Its literally a bait and switch. They were purposefully vague with what would be changing just so people would play and have the shock value be there for the ending.

The other part is the last chapter of the game is all sorts out of whack with power scaling and pacing. You go from fighting basic enemies to fighting Fate itself and slicing through buildings like cake while fighting Sephiroth. Yet in the previous chapter cloud couldn't even cut through a vault door. Personally time-travel paradoxes and alternative timelines have never been pulled off in a good way and adding it to FFVII is a huge mistake. I'm in this ride just for the fact that I think its going to crash and burn as the series goes on, but gladly would love to be proven wrong.

 

 

Well:

 

I think it's entirely fair to be skeptical - if this was the end of the entire game, I'd be annoyed too. But we know this is just Episode I, so the groundwork they've laid down could really pay off down the road. All this stuff is being introduced for reasons, presumably, so I doubt it's just going to "crash and burn". Regardless, all we can do is judge what we have actually played, and if someone's biggest issues with a game are "it's different and I was 'tricked'" and "the pacing and power scaling are out of whack at the end", I'd say those aren't really big deals compared to music, graphics, gameplay, and the story otherwise told. Evangelion was rebooted similarly and got similar ire from some fans for being different. False advertising also doesn't bother me - we've been bat and switched with other games like MGS2 and I loved it there as well. I want art to surprise me in interesting ways, and this fell along those lines. I agree about time travel being a real potential issue, we'll see how it goes on that front.

 

9 hours ago, Xbob42 said:

  Reveal hidden contents

Telling a meta-story instead of just letting the game stand on its own is going to age like fucking milk and I guarantee there's going to be so many new players (the original game is almost a quarter-century old, it's not the cultural touchstone for everyone as it was for people in their 30s) that are going to be so goddamn confused about all this nonsense. They didn't need to do all this dumb shit to retcon the story or rewrite it. It's so ridiculous and completely kills the end. And how you don't see the how the escalation was too crazy when you go from fighting some security guards and some random lab experiments to fighting literally all the end bosses from the end of the original FF7 and FUCKING DESTINY ITSELF then I guess there's no way for escalation to GO too crazy for you. What is even a threat to these people anymore? They're invincible gods. Can't wait for their abilities to be reset to basic spells at the start of part 2 with no explanation.

It is what it is, I'm glad some people seem to like it, but I think it was awful. Kingdom Hearts tells a shitty story, and this literally became Kingdom Hearts in all but name. I am disgusted, and I don't even hold FF7 in high regard. Makes me wonder what they'd do to a FF6 remake.

 

 

Well:

 

Again, I think you're being very presumptuous. I said there is an interesting meta-commentary here, not that the game can't stand on its own without it. I think it's important to remember the game's story isn't over. While I share your concerns about this becoming as convoluted as Kingdom Hearts, stories can become so esoteric you lose the dramatic thrust of the story, which isn't good. And it's pretty clear that this remake/reboot/reimagining is not for newbies. If newbies who never played the original played this, I agree, the ending would be very confusing for them, but it's pretty clear this isn't for them, I'm not gonna knock a game made for nostalgia and fans of the original (from an interesting meta perspective) not working for people who have never played it (since this is a sequel in a way anyway). 

 

It's not that I didn't notice the escalation, it's that I wasn't surprised by it. Almost every FF goes overboard in the end, and this one does too. I'm not sure what threats still exist for the group but, again, that's for the future to tell, not for me to presume that this episode is bad because I can't see the future. And resetting power levels between games happens all the time, see Mass Effect 2 for a good example, and I didn't see people complaining when it happened there, or in Metroid Fusion and tons of other games. I'm in agreement about Kingdom Hearts, and I worry about the same, but with more episodes to come, the story they have seeded could be very interesting. If it goes the way you think it will go, I agree, I wouldn't be happy either, we'll see. But what they're attempting here is different - you're biggest issues seem to be an imbalance of power levels (which was the case throughout the game, not just the end) and that we've done such epic stuff there's nowhere left for the story to go. The first is a small critique in the grand scheme of things, and the second we won't know until more episodes come out. Let's not lose the forest for the trees - even with those two issues, the game did plenty else right, so to hate the game on two pretty small critiques overall is your right, but seems not so objective to me.

[TwinIon]

I feel like I've been churning through this game, but I'm still only at Chapter 15.

[Nokt]

40 minutes ago, Greatoneshere said:

 

  Hide contents

I think it's entirely fair to be skeptical - if this was the end of the entire game, I'd be annoyed too. But we know this is just Episode I, so the groundwork they've laid down could really pay off down the road. All this stuff is being introduced for reasons, presumably, so I doubt it's just going to "crash and burn". Regardless, all we can do is judge what we have actually played, and if someone's biggest issues with a game are "it's different and I was 'tricked'" and "the pacing and power scaling are out of whack at the end", I'd say those aren't really big deals compared to music, graphics, gameplay, and the story otherwise told. Evangelion was rebooted similarly and got similar ire from some fans for being different. False advertising also doesn't bother me - we've been bat and switched with other games like MGS2 and I loved it there as well. I want art to surprise me in interesting ways, and this fell along those lines. I agree about time travel being a real potential issue, we'll see how it goes on that front.

 

 

Well two problems for me.

1- I can't think of a good instance where time travel or alternate timelines have been used as good plot devices in any video game. Titanfall 2 has a really interesting mechanic, but thats just it, its a mechanic used to offer some interesting gameplay and is then tossed aside.
2 - Square doesn't have a good track record with sequels EG X-2, XIII-2, Lightning Returns, etc. They also don't have a good track record with time travel XIII-2 and Kingdom Hearts. The people that were heading up KH, Nojima and Nomura, also have prominent roles in FFVII:R. Its a little hard to be optimistic.

I feel like I'm taking crazy pills when I have to justify that being lied to by a developer is bad and I have to defend my position. If the other 95% of this game hadn't been fantastic, the same with MSG2, nobody would be singing the same tune.

I mean the power scaling and pacing are effects of how the story is presented. I don't find the whispers, the arbiter, or anything in the final moments of the game to be objectively good story telling. Not only that, but they make sweeping changes to the games central themes, death/loss. Biggs and Jessie (potentially) surviving, everyone in the sector 7 slums surviving, Barrett being brought back to life, Zack being alive. It cheapens death and makes the weight it brought lessened. Granted the quote below might directly be about Aerith, but I think it applies to all of these examples.

"“In the real world things are very different. You just need to look around you. Nobody wants to die that way. People die of disease and accident. Death comes suddenly and there is no notion of good or bad. It leaves, not a dramatic feeling but great emptiness. When you lose someone you loved very much you feel this big empty space and think, ‘If I had known this was coming I would have done things differently.’ These are the feelings I wanted to arouse in the players with Aerith’s death relatively early in the game. Feelings of reality and not Hollywood"

The only thing good argument I've seen is that its different, new, exciting to find out what happens next. That just reaffirms my position that its not a good plot device, people are just excited to see where the series can go. That's fine, I'm happy people are excited about where the series might go. However I was told by developers that we were getting a "faithful" remake of a game we've been waiting for since the PS3 tech demo, if not prior to that. I think its more than understandable that from a purist angle its easy to understand why people would be upset about how this game turned out.

 

 

[ThreePi]

9 hours ago, Xbob42 said:

  Hide contents

My biggest complaint is that the story (at the end) is bad, not that it's different. They did a ton of different stuff from the original game and most of it was really good. The last few hours were straight up lame ass limp-wristed Kingdom Hearts coward writing where no one's allowed to actually die because Nomura's a fucking chickenshit who will use magic ghosts to retcon a story for a happier ending. And if you think it's going to go any differently from here on out, you haven't played Kingdom Hearts, the game of immortal characters.

 

Spoiler

Yeah, I generally enjoyed the changes up until Shinra Tower. The original game was tense with an ominous feeling to everything. This just kind of put all the cards on the table with Sephiroth showing up and flapping his jaw. Then the Whisper stuff was just straight up Advent Children-style silliness.

 

[darkness35]

Coming in this thread and reading

[crispy4000]

I'm still playing as well.  Taking my sweet time with it.  On Chapter 9 I think?

[Keyser_Soze]

7 hours ago, Greatoneshere said:

Not sure why spoiler tags aren't working anymore for me.

 

Why do you use tags and not just push the eyeball button on the toolbar?

[Greatoneshere]

1 hour ago, Keyser_Soze said:

 

Why do you use tags and not just push the eyeball button on the toolbar?

 

Because I'm old school. And also because I'm not aware of all board functions.  

[Keyser_Soze]

1 minute ago, Greatoneshere said:

 

Because I'm old school. And also because I'm not aware of all board functions.  

 

I'm old school too but I didn't even think you could enter manual tags.

[Greatoneshere]

Just now, Keyser_Soze said:

 

I'm old school too but I didn't even think you could enter manual tags.

 

I'm from the real old school, apparently, and I didn't even know it! I guess 33 is old now . . . 

[Keyser_Soze]

6 minutes ago, Greatoneshere said:

 

I'm from the real old school, apparently, and I didn't even know it! I guess 33 is old now . . . 

 

I'm older (and wiser in this case) than you sir 😌

[Greatoneshere]

2 minutes ago, Keyser_Soze said:

 

I'm older (and wiser in this case) than you sir 😌

 

Well then you and I both have no excuse.  

[Duderino]

Combat just keeps getting better and better.  Each character brings such a unique element to combat.  Weapons skills and Materia mix it up too.

 

Really appreciating the character swapping now.  Combinations like building up ATB with Aerith, casting Arcane Wand, then swapping characters to move into the effect range for 2x spell cast adds a whole new tactical element.

 

As the game progresses they keep introducing more strategic reasons to swap.  Learning when to do it becomes essential to maximizing synergy of your party.  There's something very cool about it that IMO justifies FF7:R not having AI routines manage more.

[Spork3245]

The biggest disappointment for me was 

Spoiler

RedXIII not being controllable. They even took the time to put mana on his weapon (the collar), but you can’t customize him