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Final Fantasy VII Remake OT - Big Trouble in Little Midgar


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7 hours ago, Greatoneshere said:

 

 

Yep, this.

 

Jessie has an expanded role so that's new, but with the improved graphics it's pretty clear that even "in-world" Cloud is considered a pretty and muscular guy (who, also, kicks ass and is super powerful, which probably helps with the ladies). Before all the mental breakdown stuff later in the game, Cloud tries to play the "cool" guy, which works initially in the original game.


Muscular? :raisedbrow:

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54 minutes ago, Firewithin said:

so how do i get stagger effect pt 3 for Chadley?  the description is kind of vague.

IIRC... you need to use an ability (something like Braver) on a staggered enemy then max out your ATB issue while they're staggered. It's difficult to do on most enemies with Cloud, since they'll likely die while staggered before your ATB fills back up. You can do it on bosses pretty easily and you can do it multiple times on the same enemy / boss.

 

This is assuming we're talking about the same intel mission. :p What's the one you're looking for called?

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46 minutes ago, Kal-El814 said:

IIRC... you need to use an ability (something like Braver) on a staggered enemy then max out your ATB issue while they're staggered. It's difficult to do on most enemies with Cloud, since they'll likely die while staggered before your ATB fills back up. You can do it on bosses pretty easily and you can do it multiple times on the same enemy / boss.

 

This is assuming we're talking about the same intel mission. :p What's the one you're looking for called?

The Stagger Effect Pt. 3 Description

While analyzing the stagger effect, I verified the existence of a peculiar behavior presumed to be an acute response to stress. Theories suggest this effect can be harnessed as materia.

 

The Stagger Effect Pt. 3 Objectives

To complete this Battle Intel quest, you must complete the following conditions:

Increase stagger damage bonus to 200%

 

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12 minutes ago, Firewithin said:

The Stagger Effect Pt. 3 Description

While analyzing the stagger effect, I verified the existence of a peculiar behavior presumed to be an acute response to stress. Theories suggest this effect can be harnessed as materia.

 

The Stagger Effect Pt. 3 Objectives

To complete this Battle Intel quest, you must complete the following conditions:

Increase stagger damage bonus to 200%

 

Sorry, I was talking about the wrong one. Easiest way to do this is with Tifa's abilities. I think Whirling Uppercut and Rise and Fall (maybe another one, too?) will push the stagger meter above 160%.

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2 hours ago, Firewithin said:

so how do i get stagger effect pt 3 for Chadley?  the description is kind of vague.


It’s easiest on a boss or Fat Chocobo. Tifa’s unique ability (triangle) raises stagger. Before the boss staggers at all make sure you use unbridled strength twice to change the uppercut to “rise & fall” which should then revert to “omnistrike” before returning to “uppercut”: the upgraded ones up stagger damage by 15% and uppercut does it by 5%. So, as soon as the stagger occurs hit rise & fall, omnistrike, then get 2 uppercuts in.

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9 minutes ago, Spork3245 said:


It’s easiest on a boss or Fat Chocobo. Tifa’s unique ability (triangle) raises stagger. Before the boss staggers at all make sure you use unbridled strength twice to change the uppercut to “rise & fall” which should then revert to “omnistrike” before returning to “uppercut”: the upgraded ones up stagger damage by 15% and uppercut does it by 5%. So, as soon as the stagger occurs hit rise & fall, omnistrike, then get 2 uppercuts in.

 

Yep, this exactly.

 

To be clear, it's not a battle intel mission to stagger to 300%, that's just for a trophy. The battle intel mission is just to reach 200% stagger. @Spork3245 describes the way you need to do it. My suggestion is to do it against Fat Chocobo - Tifa will get the job done, but just in the nick of time, so really map out your Rise & Falls, Omnistrikes, and Uppercuts. Be ready to go right before it staggers and then pummel it once it does with those moves over and over. You should hit 300% right before the stagger ends on Fat Chocobo, it's tightly timed, so be ready.

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3 hours ago, Spork3245 said:


It’s easiest on a boss or Fat Chocobo. Tifa’s unique ability (triangle) raises stagger. Before the boss staggers at all make sure you use unbridled strength twice to change the uppercut to “rise & fall” which should then revert to “omnistrike” before returning to “uppercut”: the upgraded ones up stagger damage by 15% and uppercut does it by 5%. So, as soon as the stagger occurs hit rise & fall, omnistrike, then get 2 uppercuts in.

worked like a charm.  thanks

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5 minutes ago, johnny said:

Finished the game. Loved it! Am kinda confused at the ending. Read the spoiler tags the last couple pages and helped a little but not totally sure of what’s going on. I never played the original so that’s probably why. 

 

Basically you need to catch up on every piece of FFVII lore. Crisis Core, Advent Children and the original game.

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I finally beat the game. Really enjoyed it, including the ending, though I'm confused on a few issues, which I imagine is the point, to leave us with questions to want to find out the answers to for Episode II. Questions/thoughts for those who have beaten it:

 

 

 


1. I love the idea of addressing the meta commentary of having the "Whispers" be fate/destiny trying to consistently course correct itself so it matches the narrative of the original game. You could almost say that the Whispers are representations of the fans, forcing the game to be what we want - a straight remake of the first game, so to have us play as the protagonists killing the fans, telling us basically "fuck you, we want this to go differently than what you did with us last time" is pretty ballsy and interesting. My problem, however, lies in how are they explained in-game? What are these things in-game? You can have as much unintentional/intentional fourth-wall breaking and meta-commentary that you want, but it has to also make sense in-game, and maybe future episodes will go into further detail but the Whispers' existence currently makes no sense in the mythology of FF7. And regardless of all else, where were these Whispers in the original game? Regardless of alternate timelines, etc. these things should exist both in the original game and this game since the Whispers are trying to align fate/destiny so presumably they would exist in all "versions" of FF7's mythos. 

 

2. People keep saying "the events of the original game still happened". No they didn't. The original game still exists if you want to experience that version of the narrative/story, but this version of the story is not a sequel to that one, it is an alternate/replacement version. The original version of the story didn't happen - the Whispers assault the characters with "future memories" that we know happen later in the original FF7. This is the very definition of a remake, so it's no surprise that's the subtitle to the game. It's honestly more of a reboot than a remake, and I imagine that's what people are upset about, being hoodwinked at that level. It's like the Neon Genesis Evangelion remake movies - they're really more like a reboot than a remake since it's not a like-for-like remake of the original TV series; I had no problem with it there and I have no problem with it (as an idea) here. But in no way has the story of the first game already occured - alternate universes all run concurrently with each other in time (presumably), so how could characters be reliving all this? Doesn't make sense. This is a reboot.

 

3. All the Zack Fair stuff, I assume will be explained down the road since it didn't make a whole lot of sense. Did killing the Whisper Harbinger destroy the pre-ordained destiny of past events that already occured? If so, how much of the past was also changed on top of freeing the future? And if things have changed, is Zack suddenly alive somewhere? Why isn't he with Cloud and/or Aerith in the present then? Tetsuya Nomura loves to leave viewers hanging with juicy cliffhanger story tidbits, and he's doing that here.

 

4. It really seemed like Aerith and Sephiroth were fully aware of the pre-ordained way the story was supposed to go (aka the original FF7) and since they both died in that game I imagine they both want things to go differently this time, but why are they and no one else aware of this? That'll require a lot of explaining going forward, and "the Edge of Creation" is a new place that I think will tie into all of this.

 

5. For those confused, there are no "two" Sephiroths - it's always been Sephiroth's clones (the numbered humans Professor Hojo has experimented on) that Sephiroth "takes over" by using each experiment's connection to Jenova through their Jenova cells. There is only one true Sephiroth, he just keeps taking over other Sephiroth clones' bodies to accomplish his tasks/goals. The Lifestream is one thing, the Whispers are a separate thing, and Sephiroth's clones are yet a third separate thing, for those who want to keep track. The Lifestream has its own will, trying to protect the planet at all costs. The Whispers are a separate thing that have their own will, attemping to force the game to go exactly like the original game went. Sephiroth's clones are also completely unrelated, beings struggling to live in their experimented-on state, feeling the pull to Sephiroth and Jenova and unable to fight it. 
 

 

 

I think the ending was really ballsy and fans need to stop being gatekeepers to the stories they love when it comes to remakes/reboots. Be open to something very different, something ballsy that pushes the audiences expectations. The original game is always there, and can be replayed at any time.

 

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1 hour ago, Greatoneshere said:

I finally beat the game. Really enjoyed it, including the ending, though I'm confused on a few issues, which I imagine is the point, to leave us with questions to want to find out the answers to for Episode II. Questions/thoughts for those who have beaten it:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

I think the ending was really ballsy and fans need to stop being gatekeepers to the stories they love when it comes to remakes/reboots. Be open to something very different, something ballsy that pushes the audiences expectations. The original game is always there, and can be replayed at any time.

 

Spoiler

1.) The whispers weren't in the OG (physically) because fate/destiny played out as it was supposed to and thus they didn't need to involve themselves. It was explained by Red that they only appear to "right the course". So, if the course is going as they want, why would they appear? 

 

2.) The OG timeline still exist as Sephiroth has direct knowledge of it - it's unconfirmed but I believe he used the lifestream/makostream of the planet to somehow warn himself of those events. The events of this game could not occur without the events of the first game still being cannon. If your point is that the events of the OG game are being over-written (at least in this timeline), yes, they indeed are, but the OG events are still canonized to get us here. :) 

 

3.) Stamp (the cartoon Avalance dog) was/is a different breed as shown by that wrapper that blows by Zack. We'll have to wait for confirmation, but that's believed to be yet another timeline that was created because The Whispers focused all of their energy on surrounding Midgar and fighting/stopping/whatever the characters you've been playing as, which then allowed Zack to "change his fate" (in another timeline).

 

4.) Sephiroth seems fully aware, I question that Aerith is fully aware - She definitely knows "something" is off (and that "feeling" she has seemingly grows more and more throughout the story) but I'm unsure if she has direct knowledge of the OG game/timeline like Sephiroth almost certainly does. Aerith is an Ancient and has a direct connection to the makostream/lifestream of the planet. Sephiroth is part Jenova and was previously killed in Nibbleheim, however, because of his Jenova-cells, only his human part could "return to the planet (the lifestream)" and he was able to resurrect himself because of said Jenova-cells surviving (simply put, he merged with the lifestream then came back): in the OG FF7 timeline, this more-or-less happened again in AC (the movie) with him coming back from the lifestream due to his Jenova cells not merging with it. Since his human part merged with the planet's mako/lifestream, the theory is that he found a way to send his future memories to himself through said lifestream that his past self would/could absorb upon his first "death". Their connections to the lifestream is why Aerith has the "sense" of things changing and Sephiroth (seemingly) has direct knowledge. The "you have 7 seconds" thing, for instance, is the exact amount of time in OG FF7 from Sephiroth appearing in The Temple of the Ancients to him killing Aerith.

 

5.) People on Reddit (from that Bacon thread) were/are claiming that the Sephiroth you fight in this game is actually the one from the OG timeline that time traveled and is helping you to stop his past self or something (as opposed to him finding a way to send memories back through time). I don't think that's the case, though. HOWEVER, as I was typing out that last bit of #4 for this response, it does make sense in regards to the "7 seconds" warning if that is indeed what he was referencing (ie: warning about this timeline's Sephiroth to Cloud so he can save Aerith...? I don't know). But, yea, that's where the two Sephiroth thing is coming from, I think - not the reunion-clones.

 

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On 4/20/2020 at 6:51 PM, crispy4000 said:

Up to chapter 8, it's been a fun ride so far.  I'm enjoying most of the story twists to this point.  It doesn't treat the original with total reverence, but that's totally fine by me in how it's been handled.  It's new in the same way the combat is new.  The underpinnings are still there, but it feels like a new(ish) game.

 

@Emperor Diocletian II  Planning on playing this now or waiting until the PC/Xbox release?

I actually DO have the PS4 version in my possession, but it's very much on the "Get Around To It Eventually" list :p

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3 hours ago, Spork3245 said:
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1.) The whispers weren't in the OG (physically) because fate/destiny played out as it was supposed to and thus they didn't need to involve themselves. It was explained by Red that they only appear to "right the course". So, if the course is going as they want, why would they appear? 

 

2.) The OG timeline still exist as Sephiroth has direct knowledge of it - it's unconfirmed but I believe he used the lifestream/makostream of the planet to somehow warn himself of those events. The events of this game could not occur without the events of the first game still being cannon. If your point is that the events of the OG game are being over-written (at least in this timeline), yes, they indeed are, but the OG events are still canonized to get us here. :) 

 

3.) Stamp (the cartoon Avalance dog) was/is a different breed as shown by that wrapper that blows by Zack. We'll have to wait for confirmation, but that's believed to be yet another timeline that was created because The Whispers focused all of their energy on surrounding Midgar and fighting/stopping/whatever the characters you've been playing as, which then allowed Zack to "change his fate" (in another timeline).

 

4.) Sephiroth seems fully aware, I question that Aerith is fully aware - She definitely knows "something" is off (and that "feeling" she has seemingly grows more and more throughout the story) but I'm unsure if she has direct knowledge of the OG game/timeline like Sephiroth almost certainly does. Aerith is an Ancient and has a direct connection to the makostream/lifestream of the planet. Sephiroth is part Jenova and was previously killed in Nibbleheim, however, because of his Jenova-cells, only his human part could "return to the planet (the lifestream)" and he was able to resurrect himself because of said Jenova-cells surviving (simply put, he merged with the lifestream then came back): in the OG FF7 timeline, this more-or-less happened again in AC (the movie) with him coming back from the lifestream due to his Jenova cells not merging with it. Since his human part merged with the planet's mako/lifestream, the theory is that he found a way to send his future memories to himself through said lifestream that his past self would/could absorb upon his first "death". Their connections to the lifestream is why Aerith has the "sense" of things changing and Sephiroth (seemingly) has direct knowledge. The "you have 7 seconds" thing, for instance, is the exact amount of time in OG FF7 from Sephiroth appearing in The Temple of the Ancients to him killing Aerith.

 

5.) People on Reddit (from that Bacon thread) were/are claiming that the Sephiroth you fight in this game is actually the one from the OG timeline that time traveled and is helping you to stop his past self or something (as opposed to him finding a way to send memories back through time). I don't think that's the case, though. HOWEVER, as I was typing out that last bit of #4 for this response, it does make sense in regards to the "7 seconds" warning if that is indeed what he was referencing (ie: warning about this timeline's Sephiroth to Cloud so he can save Aerith...? I don't know). But, yea, that's where the two Sephiroth thing is coming from, I think - not the reunion-clones.

 

 

Thanks for the answers! I have follow ups then . . . 

 

 

1. If that's true, what's changed to cause Whispers to appear this time? A time-traveling Sephiroth, as you suggest? And if that's true, don't we want things to play out the same way, since we succeeded the first time in beating Sephiroth (barely)? By "killing destiny" Cloud and company open up the possibility that everyone could die this time (instead of just Aerith) and the consequences could be bigger, so maybe they should listen to the Whispers?

 

2. Yeah, overwritten is what I mean. In fact, overwritten may be "worse" than a sequel because now that the timeline is overwritten, FF7 original and Advent Children, etc. are all nullified, in a very real sense, by this becoming canon. If none of the characters (other than Sephiroth and maybe Aerith) know how events play out, it's as if they never happened in the first place, thus, the fact the first game happened is almost irrelevant here, especially with a shenanigan time-traveling Sephiroth. I grant that I see your point that the first game happened if time travel is involved, but for all intents and purposes, it didn't happen. If the characters are made aware, that'd be a game changer in really having the first game affect this remake, that's to be seen if they do that or have it remain an out of left field plot point connection.

 

3. I saw that regarding Stamp, but if what you say is true (and that's certainly how it appeared to be), why is it happening concurrently? If this creates an alternate timeline, wouldn't that happen at the moment it's created, not back when Zack was fending off Shinra soldiers? Presumably, as I said, all timelines run concurrently, so it shouldn't affect the past?

 

4. This is my worry - things in the FF7 mythology are convoluted already, and director and scenario designer Tetsuya Nomura already tried to create a coherent mythology once with Kingdom Hearts and it's a shit show in terms of making sense. Adding time travel to the mix can make the story so esoteric as to lose the heart and soul of the story - the characters and their relationships. We'll see if that ends up being the case. Have any FF7 media ever indicated though that the lifestream allows for time travel (even if of just memories)? I can see that being possible, but again, it's adding another spiritual/mystical deus ex machina to an already stacked deck, so I have concerns there. I do definitely agree the "you have 7 seconds" thing is referring to the amount of time Cloud has to change destiny and save Aerith, which is why in theory I really like the idea of altering the way the story plays out as a meta-narrative, I just want it to make some sense within the game too. I do also agree that the amount either Sephiroth and/or Aerith knows is dubious at best and certainly hard to pin down, particularly with Aerith. 

 

5. If this was Sephiroth from the OG timeline, why would he warn anyone of anything? His goals would be better served by just killing everyone in this timeline and enacting his original plans from there (to be fair he does this with Barret by killing him, why he stops there I'm not sure) and I like the idea that it's Sephiroth who is literally fucking with fans' expectations, so everyone can (presumably) hate him more. A bigger game could be afoot, but even if it was, I don't see why Sephiroth would think this timeline's Sephiroth would be his enemy, and thus he would warn Cloud about it (though he certainly does warn him with that 7 seconds line). And where is this timeline's Sephiroth then? I suppose this is something to stew on and will presumably be answered in future episodes). 

 

6. Are we to interpret the Whisper mini-bosses that fight "from the future" on behalf of Whisper Harbinger are Tifa, Cloud, etc. from the future in the OG timeline, representing the selves they became from the original timeline that they are trying to protect (you find out this info if you use Assess on them when fighting them). 

 

It's all very interesting either way, and it's certainly a lot more intriguing than a straight remake would have been. 

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Oh, boy...

 

Spoiler

Yeah, real ballsy of them to retcon the story into a bloodless mess and turn the end into a fucking Kingdom Hearts battle. Who knew if you beat the shit out of the destiny monster hard enough you could win carte blanche to rewrite a story you were entrusted with telling.

 

And don't bother with the gatekeeper of the sacred original story shit, because I never liked FF7 much to begin with. That said, if you say you're going to remake something, most people will expect and in most cases want the original thing but better, more expanded, less of the bullshit. Not more bullshit. Who the fuck wanted Nomura's dumbass Kingdom Hearts nonsense? It's not a matter of preserving the sacred original story, it's about not fucking it up with absolute nonsense. If they wanted to make the story different so badly, they should've just did that from the get-go. The fans asked them for something for decades and they offer them a chopped up piece of something completely different in the end and now we get to see fucking modern Square Enix writing a fucking fanfic for their own game.

 

More than any of that, I hate how they were "ballsy" enough to retcon all this shit but too cowardly to actually kill people. What are the stakes?! 99% of people who died originally get to live because yay we killed destiny, nothing in the entire game is even the slightest bit a threat to your party, who marches through all of Midgar and beats the shit out of everything, including Sephiroth, Jenova and LITERALLY THE FUCKING WILL OF THE PLANET. Where the fuck do you go from there in part 2? You're god-killers. It escalated so ridiculously quickly and left everyone feeling like ridiculous superheroes. For all the things I didn't like about the original game, you never got the impression that any of the party were these unstoppable monsters, at least not until the end. They were some weird people, but they were still people. Here everyone is this crazy indestructible superhero right out the gate and it feels stupid like Advent Children, where nothing is really a threat so you don't give a shit. Original Cloud didn't go chopping fucking trains in half, he didn't do 50 flips off a tower and land on his pinky while flossing, the most acrobatic thing he did was the occasional big jump onto a train or something.

If you want to rewrite the story, great, whatever, do that, and make it a point that that's what you intend to do, and actually do so to make it more interesting. Instead of asking the question "Durrr what if everyone was alive and happy at the end" which is basically where this schmaltzy bullshit went, why not ask different questions? Let me explain:

 

It became apparent that they might be trying some alternate timeline bullshit early on when Cloud sees a vision of Aerith's death scene (particularly her materia hitting the ground, the one where he sheds a tear) so I was thinking this might be the future party trying to fiddle with the past somehow to bring back Aerith, and the game would be about the consequences of trying to fuck with the past.


This thought was only reinforced when Sephiroth stabbed Barret, which made my initial feelings seem especially prescient. Barret had been built up into much more of a person in this game, he was still a friggin' Mr. T ripoff but they really give him a lot of time to show off the full range of his personality besides just yelling about the planet. It seemed like a good way to both recapture that feeling of loss from the old game while simultaneously demonstrating consequences for trying to alter time. I figured in the end we'd lose many more people as they tried to save just one person, or multiple if they also tried to save Biggs, Wedge and Jessie.

 

But that wasn't what happened, of course. No, it was much dumber. You get to fiddle with the past to save EVERYONE! Oh boy I can't wait to see how they "subvert our expectations" about Aerith's death. Based on this game not only will she survive, but everyone will hug it out with Sephiroth at the end and they'll all be besties because conflict and consequences are bad!

 

It's not bad because it's different from the original, it's bad because it's fucking retarded.

 

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3 hours ago, Greatoneshere said:

 

Thanks for the answers! I have follow ups then . . . 

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Spoiler

1.) Yes, the time traveling Sephiroth (or Sephiroth with knowledge of the future). Think about when they first appear in the game, they were stopping Aerith from leaving and drew Cloud's attention to her. Why? What happened prior to that that caused a change from the OG? Sephiroth appeared to Cloud and had Cloud chase him through those flames, thus delaying Cloud from where he was supposed to be, from where Aerith was supposed to first meet Cloud and give him that flower. The whispers came to halt Aerith so she would still meet Cloud, then reappeared to scare her away when she was going to stay with him instead of leaving like in the first game. Sephiroth's first appearance here is thought to have caused a butterfly-effect which then lead to Barret not wanting Cloud for that second mission, which lead to the Whispers returning so Jessie would sprain her ankle and Barret would then have to bring Cloud on the mission, etc.

 

2.) I think the characters may eventually be aware, however, given the bit with Zack, it seems that there may more-so be multiple timelines as opposed to a singular that can actually be overwritten (...?). It could be using Dragon Ball/Avengers rules where each time a change occurs in a timeline a new alternate universe is created out of it...? This is something we'll have to wait for more games to be released to have actual answers on.

 

3.) We don't know how time works here yet. The Whispers are obviously time-agnostic so the bit with Zack may not have been happening concurrently and was indeed still in the past OR they're using "The Good Place" (and other media) methods of time being circular with all times being able to intercede. I have no idea and am just spit balling :p 

 

4.) Time traveling or, at least, sending memories through it, would be new AFAIK. However, it's mentioned in all the media, a lot, that the lifestream connects everything and in Advent Children Aerith is seemingly still "alive" within it, so it doesn't disrupt the mythos to take the step in believing that it can transcend time.

 

5.) If you lose three fights to the same guy and die in said fight with that same guy each time, plus lose your black materia, like Sephiroth did, wouldn't you be trying to change things? :p In all seriousness, I agree that there's most certainly a larger goal for Sephiroth here, and we'd have to wait to see what it is. Maybe by saving Aerith she'll never be able to use the Holy Materia (in the OG it seemed like it was worthless until she became part of the lifestream) and thus the Black Materia will summon meteor successfully? This could lead to having to make the decision and even be the one to kill her... or the devs are going to be assholes and have someone else (Tifa) die instead of Aerith because Cloud saves her. :| 

But, if there ARE indeed two Sephiroths (I'm still leaning towards there's one and he has knowledge of the future), the other (the correct one from this timeline) would have left Midgar by then and is out killing that giant serpent in Gaia. It's all a lot of speculation at this point though.

Part of this, however, leads to something interesting: it gives them the ability to have a better ending - one where they can actually stop Sephiroth properly without him constantly being reborn.

 

6.) Yea, it's believed to be future spirits of Cloud, Tifa & Barrett... which is BS because my main Sephiroth boss team was always Cloud, Red & Vincent! :p 

 

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4 minutes ago, Spork3245 said:

 

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Spoiler

So if time is like The Good Place, final fantasy 7 time is a Jeremy bearimy? :hmm:

 

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5 hours ago, Xbob42 said:

Oh, boy...

 

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Yeah, real ballsy of them to retcon the story into a bloodless mess and turn the end into a fucking Kingdom Hearts battle. Who knew if you beat the shit out of the destiny monster hard enough you could win carte blanche to rewrite a story you were entrusted with telling.

 

And don't bother with the gatekeeper of the sacred original story shit, because I never liked FF7 much to begin with. That said, if you say you're going to remake something, most people will expect and in most cases want the original thing but better, more expanded, less of the bullshit. Not more bullshit. Who the fuck wanted Nomura's dumbass Kingdom Hearts nonsense? It's not a matter of preserving the sacred original story, it's about not fucking it up with absolute nonsense. If they wanted to make the story different so badly, they should've just did that from the get-go. The fans asked them for something for decades and they offer them a chopped up piece of something completely different in the end and now we get to see fucking modern Square Enix writing a fucking fanfic for their own game.

 

More than any of that, I hate how they were "ballsy" enough to retcon all this shit but too cowardly to actually kill people. What are the stakes?! 99% of people who died originally get to live because yay we killed destiny, nothing in the entire game is even the slightest bit a threat to your party, who marches through all of Midgar and beats the shit out of everything, including Sephiroth, Jenova and LITERALLY THE FUCKING WILL OF THE PLANET. Where the fuck do you go from there in part 2? You're god-killers. It escalated so ridiculously quickly and left everyone feeling like ridiculous superheroes. For all the things I didn't like about the original game, you never got the impression that any of the party were these unstoppable monsters, at least not until the end. They were some weird people, but they were still people. Here everyone is this crazy indestructible superhero right out the gate and it feels stupid like Advent Children, where nothing is really a threat so you don't give a shit. Original Cloud didn't go chopping fucking trains in half, he didn't do 50 flips off a tower and land on his pinky while flossing, the most acrobatic thing he did was the occasional big jump onto a train or something.

If you want to rewrite the story, great, whatever, do that, and make it a point that that's what you intend to do, and actually do so to make it more interesting. Instead of asking the question "Durrr what if everyone was alive and happy at the end" which is basically where this schmaltzy bullshit went, why not ask different questions? Let me explain:

 

It became apparent that they might be trying some alternate timeline bullshit early on when Cloud sees a vision of Aerith's death scene (particularly her materia hitting the ground, the one where he sheds a tear) so I was thinking this might be the future party trying to fiddle with the past somehow to bring back Aerith, and the game would be about the consequences of trying to fuck with the past.


This thought was only reinforced when Sephiroth stabbed Barret, which made my initial feelings seem especially prescient. Barret had been built up into much more of a person in this game, he was still a friggin' Mr. T ripoff but they really give him a lot of time to show off the full range of his personality besides just yelling about the planet. It seemed like a good way to both recapture that feeling of loss from the old game while simultaneously demonstrating consequences for trying to alter time. I figured in the end we'd lose many more people as they tried to save just one person, or multiple if they also tried to save Biggs, Wedge and Jessie.

 

But that wasn't what happened, of course. No, it was much dumber. You get to fiddle with the past to save EVERYONE! Oh boy I can't wait to see how they "subvert our expectations" about Aerith's death. Based on this game not only will she survive, but everyone will hug it out with Sephiroth at the end and they'll all be besties because conflict and consequences are bad!

 

It's not bad because it's different from the original, it's bad because it's fucking retarded.

 

 

Well:

 

 

 


It's ballsy to me because on a meta-level, what they're trying to say and do with regard to what a "remake" means is pretty interesting given how pandering and fan-servicey this could have been just as a straight remake. Even the Eurogamer video (which was helpful for me), done by someone who doesn't like the ending much, says the ending is at least "gutsy", which whether one likes it or not, it is, for better or worse. And while I share your concerns about retconning events for a happier potential ending, we have no idea how the story will unfold - it is presumptuous to assume no one will die in future episodes, they've merely just set up the premise that the future won't play out as we know it. Whether that ultimately works is left for future episodes. I didn't feel the escalation was too crazy. While the power levels, I agree, don't always make sense or are consistent, that's not much different to me than Marvel movies and the vagueness of some of the characters' superpowers, but that's a much smaller issue to me and one you accept as part of JRPG/anime conventions. It sounds like you didn't really enjoy it, but for me, given we know more episodes are coming, a lot of the stuff they set up at the end could pay off later and the fact that Sephiroth is literally fucking with fan expectations is almost a meta way to hate the character more. It's an interesting commentary.
 

 

 

4 hours ago, Spork3245 said:

 

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1.) Yes, the time traveling Sephiroth (or Sephiroth with knowledge of the future). Think about when they first appear in the game, they were stopping Aerith from leaving and drew Cloud's attention to her. Why? What happened prior to that that caused a change from the OG? Sephiroth appeared to Cloud and had Cloud chase him through those flames, thus delaying Cloud from where he was supposed to be, from where Aerith was supposed to first meet Cloud and give him that flower. The whispers came to halt Aerith so she would still meet Cloud, then reappeared to scare her away when she was going to stay with him instead of leaving like in the first game. Sephiroth's first appearance here is thought to have caused a butterfly-effect which then lead to Barret not wanting Cloud for that second mission, which lead to the Whispers returning so Jessie would sprain her ankle and Barret would then have to bring Cloud on the mission, etc.

 

2.) I think the characters may eventually be aware, however, given the bit with Zack, it seems that there may more-so be multiple timelines as opposed to a singular that can actually be overwritten (...?). It could be using Dragon Ball/Avengers rules where each time a change occurs in a timeline a new alternate universe is created out of it...? This is something we'll have to wait for more games to be released to have actual answers on.

 

3.) We don't know how time works here yet. The Whispers are obviously time-agnostic so the bit with Zack may not have been happening concurrently and was indeed still in the past OR they're using "The Good Place" (and other media) methods of time being circular with all times being able to intercede. I have no idea and am just spit balling :p 

 

4.) Time traveling or, at least, sending memories through it, would be new AFAIK. However, it's mentioned in all the media, a lot, that the lifestream connects everything and in Advent Children Aerith is seemingly still "alive" within it, so it doesn't disrupt the mythos to take the step in believing that it can transcend time.

 

5.) If you lose three fights to the same guy and die in said fight with that same guy each time, plus lose your black materia, like Sephiroth did, wouldn't you be trying to change things? :p In all seriousness, I agree that there's most certainly a larger goal for Sephiroth here, and we'd have to wait to see what it is. Maybe by saving Aerith she'll never be able to use the Holy Materia (in the OG it seemed like it was worthless until she became part of the lifestream) and thus the Black Materia will summon meteor successfully? This could lead to having to make the decision and even be the one to kill her... or the devs are going to be assholes and have someone else (Tifa) die instead of Aerith because Cloud saves her. :| 

But, if there ARE indeed two Sephiroths (I'm still leaning towards there's one and he has knowledge of the future), the other (the correct one from this timeline) would have left Midgar by then and is out killing that giant serpent in Gaia. It's all a lot of speculation at this point though.

Part of this, however, leads to something interesting: it gives them the ability to have a better ending - one where they can actually stop Sephiroth properly without him constantly being reborn.

 

6.) Yea, it's believed to be future spirits of Cloud, Tifa & Barrett... which is BS because my main Sephiroth boss team was always Cloud, Red & Vincent! :p 

 

 

Just to address you points:

 

 

1. I agree with you that the butterfly effect explanation makes sense, but I think the question still stands that why would we want to fight fate if it worked out the first time?

 

2. Yeah, I agree future episodes will probably provide a clearer answer (hopefully) on this. Why Sephiroth would go back to the beginning of OG FF7 in an alternate timeline rather than the one he originated in is confusing, and wouldn't there then be multiple post-OG FF7 Sephiroth's running around messing up timelines similar to the one from the OG FF7 we played if there are multiple timelines?

 

3. Those are some good ideas that I considered as well - it's something they are going to have to seriously address because while the Assess description for Whisper Harbinger says it is "an accretion of Whispers that connects all times and all spaces by the planet's will itself" explains that there are multiple dimensions/timelines. So that's something. 

 

4. Yeah, Whisper Harbinger's description hints at the same so I guess it's possible. Time travel is a messy plot device to add to FF7 I think. :p 

 

5. I agree with all your points, and that at this point a lot of our thoughts are just speculation for sure. :)

 

6. So even the future spirits of our very characters from the OG timeline don't want this new crew to change things . . . so maybe we shouldn't be changing things? :p 

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50 minutes ago, Greatoneshere said:

 

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It's ballsy to me because on a meta-level, what they're trying to say and do with regard to what a "remake" means is pretty interesting given how pandering and fan-servicey this could have been just as a straight remake. Even the Eurogamer video (which was helpful for me), done by someone who doesn't like the ending much, says the ending is at least "gutsy", which whether one likes it or not, it is, for better or worse. And while I share your concerns about retconning events for a happier potential ending, we have no idea how the story will unfold - it is presumptuous to assume no one will die in future episodes, they've merely just set up the premise that the future won't play out as we know it. Whether that ultimately works is left for future episodes. I didn't feel the escalation was too crazy. While the power levels, I agree, don't always make sense or are consistent, that's not much different to me than Marvel movies and the vagueness of some of the characters' superpowers, but that's a much smaller issue to me and one you accept as part of JRPG/anime conventions. It sounds like you didn't really enjoy it, but for me, given we know more episodes are coming, a lot of the stuff they set up at the end could pay off later and the fact that Sephiroth is literally fucking with fan expectations is almost a meta way to hate the character more. It's an interesting commentary.

 

My issue is that even if its a ballsy move, it wasn't sold as this at all. It wasn't sold as a reboot or a sequel, there are several sources citing that they will remain faithful to the plot points. Its literally a bait and switch. They were purposefully vague with what would be changing just so people would play and have the shock value be there for the ending.


The other part is the last chapter of the game is all sorts out of whack with power scaling and pacing. You go from fighting basic enemies to fighting Fate itself and slicing through buildings like cake while fighting Sephiroth. Yet in the previous chapter cloud couldn't even cut through a vault door. Personally time-travel paradoxes and alternative timelines have never been pulled off in a good way and adding it to FFVII is a huge mistake. I'm in this ride just for the fact that I think its going to crash and burn as the series goes on, but gladly would love to be proven wrong.

 

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Telling a meta-story instead of just letting the game stand on its own is going to age like fucking milk and I guarantee there's going to be so many new players (the original game is almost a quarter-century old, it's not the cultural touchstone for everyone as it was for people in their 30s) that are going to be so goddamn confused about all this nonsense. They didn't need to do all this dumb shit to retcon the story or rewrite it. It's so ridiculous and completely kills the end. And how you don't see the how the escalation was too crazy when you go from fighting some security guards and some random lab experiments to fighting literally all the end bosses from the end of the original FF7 and FUCKING DESTINY ITSELF then I guess there's no way for escalation to GO too crazy for you. What is even a threat to these people anymore? They're invincible gods. Can't wait for their abilities to be reset to basic spells at the start of part 2 with no explanation.


It is what it is, I'm glad some people seem to like it, but I think it was awful. Kingdom Hearts tells a shitty story, and this literally became Kingdom Hearts in all but name. I am disgusted, and I don't even hold FF7 in high regard. Makes me wonder what they'd do to a FF6 remake.

 

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