Movies ~*Colin Trevorrow's Star Wars: Episode IX - Duel of the Fates OT*~

[Kal-El814]

29 minutes ago, TwinIon said:

Having Holdo do it is kinda super important to the whole story. If you have Ackbar, there's immediately a sense of authority that comes along with him, and the confrontations between Holdo and Poe would no longer feel nearly as ambiguous. It's also an emotional moment, and I'd much rather have Laura Dern in that role than a fish man that can hardly emote.

But if you changed everything about the movie it might be better. 
 

EDIT - we’re taking Obi-Wan literally now? Obi-Wan. Really.

 

”I don’t recall ever owning a droid.”

 

”Only imperial stormtroopers are so precise.”

 

”He betrayed and murdered your father.”

[Alpha1Cowboy]

1 hour ago, TwinIon said:

Having Holdo do it is kinda super important to the whole story. If you have Ackbar, there's immediately a sense of authority that comes along with him, and the confrontations between Holdo and Poe would no longer feel nearly as ambiguous. It's also an emotional moment, and I'd much rather have Laura Dern in that role than a fish man that can hardly emote.

 

Considering the confrontations between Poe and Holdo were entirely contrived in the first place as merely a means to develop his character at her expense....I'd be fine with that.   They just neededa way to show Poe growing into a leader and then when that was done disposing of her character. 

 

 

Also...it would have fit better with Ackbar since the Empire was the one that had a thing against non humanoid Officers......and that's what made the Rebellion/Resistance distinctive.   Johnson never understood that aspect of Star Wars at all.

[skillzdadirecta]

1 hour ago, TwinIon said:

Having Holdo do it is kinda super important to the whole story. If you have Ackbar, there's immediately a sense of authority that comes along with him, and the confrontations between Holdo and Poe would no longer feel nearly as ambiguous. It's also an emotional moment, and I'd much rather have Laura Dern in that role than a fish man that can hardly emote.

Yeah Holdo doing it was important to Poe's arc, but it would have been fan service for another more established character to do it. Either way, I didn't have a problem with it being Holdo.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Alpha1Cowboy said:

Also...it would have fit better with Ackbar since the Empire was the one that had a thing against non humanoid Officers......and that's what made the Rebellion/Resistance distinctive.   Johnson never understood that aspect of Star Wars at all.

Is there somewhere in the movies where this is stated? I don’t recall.

[EternallDarkness]

3 minutes ago, sblfilms said:

Is there somewhere in the movies where this is stated? I don’t recall.

 

not sure if it was ever in the movies, but if I am remembering correctly it was in Zahn's Heir to the Empire books series r/t Thrawn, though admittedly it's been 20+ years since I read that series. 

[Reputator]

12 minutes ago, sblfilms said:

Is there somewhere in the movies where this is stated? I don’t recall.

 

It's "stated" visually if you just look at the characters.

[SoberChef]

3 hours ago, TwinIon said:

Having Holdo do it is kinda super important to the whole story. If you have Ackbar, there's immediately a sense of authority that comes along with him, and the confrontations between Holdo and Poe would no longer feel nearly as ambiguous. It's also an emotional moment, and I'd much rather have Laura Dern in that role than a fish man that can hardly emote.

Holdo is NOT important at all whatsoever, totally pointless character.

 

Also, bought my ticket for Thursday Dec 19th at 6pm (I sorta hate myself for this but I also can't NOT go to what's the final entry in the story I've been invested in since I was like 3)

[CitizenVectron]

I mean it's also stated visually in the OT that both the Empire and Rebels are some pretty serious white supremacists when it comes to humans. But that's because they were filmed when diversity didn't matter on film. It's natural to see more people of colour now, and while I think it would be even more powerful to have the First Order have only white officers and have the Rebe...Resistance have all types, I don't see a problem at all with the new movies having more diversity across all factions.

 

14 minutes ago, SoberChef said:

Holdo is NOT important at all whatsoever, totally pointless character.

 

 

I mean, she plays an important role in the plot and also Poe's arc...so obviously she is not pointless. By your definition, anyone who sacrificed themselves in the same movie they are introduced is pointless.

[EternallDarkness]

2 minutes ago, CitizenVectron said:

 By your definition, anyone who sacrificed themselves in the same movie they are introduced is pointless.

 

not at all....but in terms of TLJ she was pointless. of course just about everything in that movie was pointless ...and the plot, if you can even call it that, was absolute shit. But that's just my opinion  

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Reputator said:

 

It's "stated" visually if you just look at the characters.

That’s an assumption, maybe even a fair one given the Nazi imagery the film leans on in regards to the Empire. But Alpha said this like it was some plot point in the films. I’m guessing it is indeed some EU stuff that no filmmaker should care one bit about.

[Chris-]

In the same thread in which some people are saying Rian Johnson wrote a shitty Star Wars story, others are advocating for removing a crucial character from a scene and neutering all emotional impact the scene is meant to impart. 

[Massdriver]

Aside from the emotional impact or how beautiful the scene looked, I think think the bigger issue with it was the precedence it sets tactically. Why not just create ramming ships that hyperspace into First Order or Resistance fleets? Star Wars is already filled with inconsistencies between various movies, but I hated to see another one added. 

[SoberChef]

5 minutes ago, Chris- said:

In the same thread in which some people are saying Rian Johnson wrote a shitty Star Wars story, others are advocating for removing a crucial character from a scene and neutering all emotional impact the scene is meant to impart. 

There was emotional impact in that scene (at least more than "Ohhh that's visually cool!"?) because no, there was none! Had it been Admiral Ackbar however, then those of us who have spent so much time caring and living in this universe would have lost our minds & bawled our eyes out as a main ancillary character had given his life for the last of the resistance!

[CayceG]

1 minute ago, Massdriver said:

Aside from the emotional impact or how beautiful the scene looked, I think think the bigger issue with it was the precedence it sets tactically. Why not just create ramming ships that hyperspace into First Order or Resistance fleets? Star Wars is already filled with inconsistencies between various movies, but I hated to see another one added. 

 

Because the point of a ship (especially one that is literally massive with lots of resources poured into it) is that it is meant to be resilient (shields, hull armor) and multiple use. 

 

The Raddus was a fucking huge ship with a lot of mass. You can't hyperdrive a CR90 through a Death Star and have it matter. 

 

 

Plus, it's a fucking movie and it looked rad as shit get off Sun Tzu's dick. 

[CitizenVectron]

I'm going to paraphrase what someone else posted on resetera, but these movies are for kids. They are only targeted at us in so much as nostalgia is concerned, the same way that Pixar movies are for kids but include references that parents will enjoy. This is why it is almost 100% guaranteed that Ben will redeem himself, because there is only good and evil in Star Wars, and as long as you choose light in the end you are redeemed.

 

Almost every movie contradicts something from another or introduces some complication, but that's okay! If it was Dune or some hard sci-fi thing I would be mad too...but it's a children's fantasy adventure set in space. The EU was more serious, but the movies are about fun. That's why lasers bend in space and ships have wings.

[GeneticBlueprint]

1 minute ago, SoberChef said:

There was emotional impact in that scene (at least more than "Ohhh that's visually cool!"?) because no, there was none! Had it been Admiral Ackbar however, then those of us who have spent so much time caring and living in this universe would have lost our minds & bawled our eyes out as a main ancillary character had given his life for the last of the resistance!

 

Attachment to a character should not be based on the amount of times you have watched a movie. Ackbar has all of 4 minutes of screen time in RotJ. Any onscreen reason you have to be attached to Ackbar is multiplied tenfold by Holdo because she actually serves a purpose in the development of one of the main characters. A claim Ackbar cannot make.

[CitizenVectron]

Ackbar is only cool because we've known him for 30 years. Same with Porkins.

[cusideabelincoln]

 

10 minutes ago, Massdriver said:

Aside from the emotional impact or how beautiful the scene looked, I think think the bigger issue with it was the precedence it sets tactically. Why not just create ramming ships that hyperspace into First Order or Resistance fleets? Star Wars is already filled with inconsistencies between various movies, but I hated to see another one added. 

 

If Solo showed us anything, it's that coaxium is reeeeaaaally hard to get, and like super expensive.

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, CitizenVectron said:

the same way that Pixar movies are for kids but include references that parents will enjoy.

False

[GeneticBlueprint]

1 minute ago, CitizenVectron said:

Ackbar is only cool because we've known him for 30 years. Same with Porkins.

 

The only death that made me cry in the entire saga. RIP in peace Porkins.

[Massdriver]

31 minutes ago, CitizenVectron said:

I'm going to paraphrase what someone else posted on resetera, but these movies are for kids. They are only targeted at us in so much as nostalgia is concerned, the same way that Pixar movies are for kids but include references that parents will enjoy. This is why it is almost 100% guaranteed that Ben will redeem himself, because there is only good and evil in Star Wars, and as long as you choose light in the end you are redeemed.

 

Almost every movie contradicts something from another or introduces some complication, but that's okay! If it was Dune or some hard sci-fi thing I would be mad too...but it's a children's fantasy adventure set in space. The EU was more serious, but the movies are about fun. That's why lasers bend in space and ships have wings.

Yeah and I've started to accept it is mainly for children and to see some flashy stuff on the screen. I think Star Wars could be so much more, but the direction they want to take it is fine too, it's just not what I want. 

 

34 minutes ago, CayceG said:

 

Because the point of a ship (especially one that is literally massive with lots of resources poured into it) is that it is meant to be resilient (shields, hull armor) and multiple use. 

 

The Raddus was a fucking huge ship with a lot of mass. You can't hyperdrive a CR90 through a Death Star and have it matter. 

 

 

Plus, it's a fucking movie and it looked rad as shit get off Sun Tzu's dick. 

Hey I played Tie Figher, X-Wing, etc. I know what capital ships are for. My point is you could use a CR90 that was modified and probably do some serious damage to a Star Destroyer. 

[CayceG]

7 minutes ago, Massdriver said:

 

Hey I played Tie Figher, X-Wing, etc. I know what capital ships are for. My point is you could use a CR90 that was modified and probably do some serious damage to a Star Destroyer. 

 

But there are THOUSANDS of Star Destroyers too! If we're going back to a canon explanation, the limitations are that the rebels just couldn't even get a 1-to-1 ratio of ships (even if they're smaller CR90s or Hammerheads or Sphyrnas) to address that. And even then, they want to use them as cargo haulers, clandestine transports, and minor local anti-starfighter defense. 

 

What does it get you to destroy a Star Destroyer? Three more hypering in behind it to blockade your system. 

 

I swear, none of yall watched Rebels. 

[Massdriver]

2 minutes ago, CayceG said:

 

But there are THOUSANDS of Star Destroyers too! If we're going back to a canon explanation, the limitations are that the rebels just couldn't even get a 1-to-1 ratio of ships (even if they're smaller CR90s or Hammerheads or Sphyrnas) to address that. And even then, they want to use them as cargo haulers, clandestine transports, and minor local anti-starfighter defense. 

 

What does it get you to destroy a Star Destroyer? Three more hypering in behind it to blockade your system. 

 

I swear, none of yall watched Rebels. 

I'm talking about the First Order. My understanding was they don't have all that many ships, but maybe I'm wrong about that since the new movies give hardly any galactic context and you have to read about what little info there is.

[CayceG]

Right. Which is why it's a franchise that thrives on multiple ways of consuming it. Comics, TV, Movies, Books. I can't keep track of it all. But the context is there if you're eager enough to look for it. I've not gone down that wormhole to go through wookiepedia to understand the political structure of the New Republic era.

 

[SaysWho?]

7 hours ago, TwinIon said:

Having Holdo do it is kinda super important to the whole story. If you have Ackbar, there's immediately a sense of authority that comes along with him, and the confrontations between Holdo and Poe would no longer feel nearly as ambiguous. It's also an emotional moment, and I'd much rather have Laura Dern in that role than a fish man that can hardly emote.

 

Plus, Ackbar is more fan service. Not every death needs to be an old character.

[Alpha1Cowboy]

14 hours ago, GeneticBlueprint said:

 

Attachment to a character should not be based on the amount of times you have watched a movie. Ackbar has all of 4 minutes of screen time in RotJ. Any onscreen reason you have to be attached to Ackbar is multiplied tenfold by Holdo because she actually serves a purpose in the development of one of the main characters. A claim Ackbar cannot make.

 

 

To be fair..my attatchment to Ackbar is because I went as him in one of those boxed store bought  Haloween costumes when I was a kid in the fall of 83..... (he was an important enough character to get a  mainline Halloween costume.)     I mean....look at Bobba Fett for a character with little screen time and huge popularity....hell...just based on Bobba and his background we've got out first live action Star Wars TV series. 

 

Holdo meanwhile is brought in as this tactical military leader...and she makes a huge military blunder at the end.  When you're fighting  a war..you don't sacrifice you're most indispensable leaders unnecessarily when a much lower ranking human or robot will do.  (But that's more of an argument about how certain directors have no idea how a military works) 

 

 

As for fan service....so is Spiderman in Civil War....but people loved that shit.   I'd argue that its also not fan service when there is continuity......Ackbar was the Admiral that oversaw and ran the space naval engagement against the 2nd Death star.    It makes sense for him to be leading the resistance.  As much as I love the smaller intimate story within Star Wars.....I also love the bigger War movie.....thats what made Saving Private Ryan so great.....you had this smaller story going on against the backdrop of a larger war which you get to see as in the opening D-Day invasion.  It's also an element that made people really like Rogue One

 

 

 

As for the  Alien representation thing.....  In the OT it is represented.....Ackbar and the Mon Cal were represented as this brilliant tactical race of aliens and Bothans were critical in running Covert Ops and wookies were considered non sentient by the Emperor and allowed to become slaves within the inner core systems. 

 

 

Probably the biggest mistake  I feel that might have been best avoided by Johnson was setting the 2nd movie so close to the first timeline wise.   It really hurt not fully understanding the context of this war within the galaxy it's set in.  

 

 

[SaysWho?]

15 hours ago, Chris- said:

In the same thread in which some people are saying Rian Johnson wrote a shitty Star Wars story, others are advocating for removing a crucial character from a scene and neutering all emotional impact the scene is meant to impart. 

 

It's clear to me that his story is great every time I think about it or watch it, and it's clear to me those who think it's bad would be horrific filmmakers. 

[Kal-El814]

I love Ackbar, but he’s a meme. That’s it. Holdo is an actual character. Like her, don’t like her, whatever. But let’s not kid ourselves about what Ackbar was.

 

1 hour ago, Alpha1Cowboy said:

Probably the biggest mistake  I feel that might have been best avoided by Johnson was setting the 2nd movie so close to the first timeline wise.   It really hurt not fully understanding the context of this war within the galaxy it's set in.  

This is nonsense. The only context we needed in ANH was an opening crawl and some lines from Tarkin. That’s it. At the end of that movie, a space station the size of a moon that had been under construction for almost 20 years gets blown up... and the Empire doesn’t miss a fucking beat.

 

The context you want has never been in the movies. Never. The ST is no different in this regard.

[SaysWho?]

35 minutes ago, Kal-El814 said:

I love Ackbar, but he’s a meme. That’s it. Holdo is an actual character. Like her, don’t like her, whatever. But let’s not kid ourselves about what Ackbar was.

 

This is nonsense. The only context we needed in ANH was an opening crawl and some lines from Tarkin. That’s it. At the end of that movie, a space station the size of a moon that had been under construction for almost 20 years gets blown up... and the Empire doesn’t miss a fucking beat.

 

The context you want has never been in the movies. Never. The ST is no different in this regard.

 

That's another thing that always amazed me about Empire, which is my favorite Star Wars along with The Last Jedi: 

 

A New Hope builds to the rescue of the Princess, who hid the Death Star plans in a droid, and they utilize the plans to destroy the Death Star at the end. The whole movie builds to the attack on the Death Star, yet when Empire begins, it's as if the Empire won the last movie since they're ripping apart the Rebels. And then by ROTJ, they're building a new one already anyway, which is more destructive than the previous one yet seems to only be able to destroy ships, not planets.

 

It's also why I don't get the opposition to TLJ being a chase. Empire was a chase. They're going after the Rebels and then going after Han, and Luke is being taught the ways of the Force. It's about the characters, not simply the actions.

[Kal-El814]

Yeah, I can appreciate the extent to which TLJ might feel small. Poe, Leia... they don’t move around much. But I feel like it’s also one of the only pieces of Star Wars media that I’ve consumed that effectively shows just how desperate the plight of the Rebels / Resistance actually is. Poe gets slapped around for blowing up a big ship because... who cares! He should know better. Leia certainly does, she’s seen 2 Death Stars and one Starkiller base blow up and her squad is still at risk.

[SaysWho?]

16 minutes ago, Kal-El814 said:

Yeah, I can appreciate the extent to which TLJ might feel small. Poe, Leia... they don’t move around much. But I feel like it’s also one of the only pieces of Star Wars media that I’ve consumed that effectively shows just how desperate the plight of the Rebels / Resistance actually is. Poe gets slapped around for blowing up a big ship because... who cares! He should know better. Leia certainly does, she’s seen 2 Death Stars and one Starkiller base blow up and her squad is still at risk.

 

YES! She had the experience to not want to see more die like that, and this movie, more than all the other ones, shows how ill equipped the good guys are. When I saw the rescue pods being gunned down, I was like, "Wait, THAT'S the entire Resistance?!"

[Greatoneshere]

The only real mistake TLJ makes badly is having no time jump in the film, and having the timelines of the three plots in the film feel at odds with each other and oddly compressed. That was a very bad move. Otherwise it's a pretty fantastic movie with some flaws here and there.

 

Otherwise, ships weaponizing hyperspace or bombs falling downward in low orbit or a droid could pilot the ship maybe are all really stupid arguments to dislike a movie. How did Joker get all those barrels of explosives on the boats? How does he do anything in The Dark Knight? It doesn't matter. What does matter is what it does to the characters, and whether it's believable in the world that's been established. I mean, the way science has just exploded in the MCU with no real explanation despite the first Iron Man mirroring our own reality is nuts. "Alien tech" retroengineered you say. "Asgardian tech" you say. Yeah, whatever. We have a 14-year old girl genius in Wakanda outsmarting Tony Stark and Bruce Banner with tech that I'm not sure how it functions in reality. But we just accept so much ridiculousness there (and I do accept it). So MCU it's fine, but Star Wars it's not?

 

Star Wars has all kinds of inconsistencies, what matters is whether they are inconsistencies that really matter or not.

[Alpha1Cowboy]

2 hours ago, Kal-El814 said:

I love Ackbar, but he’s a meme. That’s it. Holdo is an actual character. Like her, don’t like her, whatever. But let’s not kid ourselves about what Ackbar was.

 

This is nonsense. The only context we needed in ANH was an opening crawl and some lines from Tarkin. That’s it. At the end of that movie, a space station the size of a moon that had been under construction for almost 20 years gets blown up... and the Empire doesn’t miss a fucking beat.

 

The context you want has never been in the movies. Never. The ST is no different in this regard.

 

 

I disagree....that's what undermined Episode 1-3...they pulled the camera too far out on the Space Opera of the politics and war form afar and we lost the more intimate connections we had come to be used to in the Original Trilogy.....

 

And yet when ESB starts we get this

 

 

It is a dark time for the
Rebellion. Although the Death
Star has been destroyed,
Imperial troops have driven the
Rebel forces from their hidden
base and pursued them across
the galaxy.

Evading the dreaded Imperial
Starfleet, a group of freedom
fighters led by Luke Skywalker
has established a new secret
base on the remote ice world
of Hoth.

The evil lord Darth Vader,
obsessed with finding young
Skywalker, has dispatched
thousands of remote probes into
the far reaches of space....

That crawl shows that time has passed and a much better desriptor of where we are at....the Rebels have moved operations off planet to an entirely new place and 3 years have passed.    3 years is missing a beat......because at the end of TFA its mere days before TLJ.  

 

The whole thing very much felt like the fight between the Resistance and New Order was happening in a vacuum where they were the only ones affected.   No one on Canto Bight seemed to even care. or be affected in any way which seems kinda weird considering theNew Republic Govement had just been completely destroyed....which should have some effect 

 

[Guest]

22 minutes ago, Alpha1Cowboy said:

No one on Canto Bight seemed to even care. or be affected in any way

That was the point.

[SaysWho?]

24 minutes ago, Alpha1Cowboy said:

 That crawl shows that time has passed and a much better desriptor of where we are at....the Rebels have moved operations off planet to an entirely new place and 3 years have passed.    3 years is missing a beat......because at the end of TFA its mere days before TLJ.  

 

The whole thing very much felt like the fight between the Resistance and New Order was happening in a vacuum where they were the only ones affected.   No one on Canto Bight seemed to even care. or be affected in any way which seems kinda weird considering theNew Republic Govement had just been completely destroyed....which should have some effect 

 

 

Of course they don't care.  They're not good people and they're selling shit to bigger powers IIRC. That's why they're so rich.