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OFFICIAL IAW IS FULL MITTENS FOR SAINT PETE BUTTIGIEG THREAD


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18 minutes ago, Amazatron said:

You're going to have to elaborate on that.  I fail to see how Republicans would ever even touch anything resembling socialism policies and would scream bloody murder from the rooftops.

 

I think Warren and Sanders wouldn't (or shouldn't) even care about Republicans and what they want/think in exactly the same way Republicans currently don't care about Democrats. I think that is a more effective strategy than playing ball with them at all, which is what Obama did. Is that extreme? Yes, but it's a strong response to a party that only plays politics that way. 

 

It won't matter anyway as I would be surprised if we don't get a majority Democratic Senate and keep it in the House in 2020. And even with more centrist Dems I do think Warren and Sanders could get things passed.

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32 minutes ago, Greatoneshere said:

And even with more centrist Dems I do think Warren and Sanders could get things passed.

I think it's worth noting that with those two you wouldn't be starting from a pre-negotiated position before the horse training really starts

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10 minutes ago, Greatoneshere said:

 

How do you mean? 

Say universal health insurance. Those two may start negotiating from the M4A position to be watered down by Congress, where someone like Amy Klobuchar would go in with the position of "fix Obamacare" (whatever the hell that means) to negotiate with Congress.

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8 minutes ago, b_m_b_m_b_m said:

Say universal health insurance. Those two may start negotiating from the M4A position to be watered down by Congress, where someone like Amy Klobuchar would go in with the position of "fix Obamacare" (whatever the hell that means) to negotiate with Congress.

 

Ah, yes, agreed. Certainly my preference. 

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24 minutes ago, b_m_b_m_b_m said:

Say universal health insurance. Those two may start negotiating from the M4A position to be watered down by Congress, where someone like Amy Klobuchar would go in with the position of "fix Obamacare" (whatever the hell that means) to negotiate with Congress.

 

"We kill the filibuster and pass the Single Payer M4A bill that's already cleared the House, or you guys can fix the ACA." 

 

That's what Obama failed to do. A lefty Democratic Party gives the Republicans room to move back to the center, they won't do that now because they don't want to be seen as losing face. 

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4 minutes ago, Chris- said:

The talk about "elitism" is pretty funny given that Sanders and the left are focusing on things like climate change and free college, which I highly doubt are high up the priority list for the working class.

 

That's a bit disingenuous given there are other focuses they also have like Medicare for All, increasing the minimum wage, tax relief for the poor and working classes, criminal justice reform, etc. These are high up on the priority list for the working class. 

 

The talk of elitism comes from the attitude you see: smug, better than, etc. It's about not understanding or connecting emotionally, rather than just intellectually, with the poor and working classes. 

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Just now, Greatoneshere said:

 

That's a bit disingenuous given there are other focuses they also have like Medicare for All, increasing the minimum wage, tax relief for the poor and working classes, criminal justice reform, etc. These are high up on the priority list for the working class

It's not disingenuous at all, because I'm not suggesting it is a hostile platform; it is hospitable to the working class. But the fact of the matter is that a plurality (if not majority) of the left is comprised of well-educated white people, and their priorities and actions reflect that. I don't know how you can call that anything other than elitism, no matter how benevolent it may be. 

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9 minutes ago, Chris- said:

It's not disingenuous at all, because I'm not suggesting it is a hostile platform; it is hospitable to the working class. But the fact of the matter is that a plurality (if not majority) of the left is comprised of well-educated white people, and their priorities and actions reflect that. I don't know how you can call that anything other than elitism, no matter how benevolent it may be. 

 

Because if you are authentically well meaning you don't carry an elitist attitude. How much of that makes up "the left's" base? I'm not sure, but that's the sense I get. If their priorities and actions also reflect the policies I outlined, then how can you say it is exclusively the two you said it was? And if it's not exclusive, then aren't we just admitting the left has a diverse but equally popular number of policy proposals, which is what the left is?

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Just now, Greatoneshere said:

 

Because if you are authentically well meaning you don't carry an elitist attitude. How much of that makes up "the left's" base? I'm not sure, but that's the sense I get. If their priorities and actions also reflect the policies I outlined, then how can you say it is exclusively the two you said it was?

I never said it was those two exclusively, I was merely highlighting two examples where the elitism of the left shines through. 

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10 minutes ago, Chris- said:

I never said it was those two exclusively, I was merely highlighting two examples where the elitism of the left shines through. 

 

I think that's convenient overlap than something insidious or intentional. Free college for all (at public universities) helps the poor and working classes too. 

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21 minutes ago, Greatoneshere said:

 

I think that's convenient overlap than something insidious or intentional. Free college for all (at public universities) helps the poor and working classes too. 

Again, I'm not suggesting it is insidious or hostile; obviously free college benefits the poor and working classes. However it (like climate change) is a priority driven by the educated class, and I don't see how that can be considered anything other than elitism. When your political movement is being led by an elite class (which, given national statistics, the college-or-more educated crowd certainly is), it is inherently elitist, no matter how much it looks out for those below it.

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So far Harris seems like the most likely to throw members of our current administration in jail and frankly if it comes down to that I will absolutely be voting for her to be the nominee. The only vision I'm interested in for the immediate future is one with all these assholes in prison.

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15 minutes ago, Anathema- said:

So far Harris seems like the most likely to throw members of our current administration in jail and frankly if it comes down to that I will absolutely be voting for her to be the nominee. The only vision I'm interested in for the immediate future is one with all these assholes in prison.

Hey, @RedSoxFan9 is right! Once a cop, always a cop. 

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41 minutes ago, Anathema- said:

So far Harris seems like the most likely to throw members of our current administration in jail and frankly if it comes down to that I will absolutely be voting for her to be the nominee. The only vision I'm interested in for the immediate future is one with all these assholes in prison.

I'd love that but how do we get around the coming pardons? 

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2 hours ago, Chris- said:

Again, I'm not suggesting it is insidious or hostile; obviously free college benefits the poor and working classes. However it (like climate change) is a priority driven by the educated class, and I don't see how that can be considered anything other than elitism. When your political movement is being led by an elite class (which, given national statistics, the college-or-more educated crowd certainly is), it is inherently elitist, no matter how much it looks out for those below it.

I think it's pretty easy to make the case that climate change disproportionately affects the poor and working classes (who largely identify as Democrats).

 

 

If political priorities are set by politicians and if you define politicians as being elites, then any political priority is by definition elitist. I don't think that's a particularly useful way to think about anything.

 

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17 hours ago, Chris- said:

Again, I'm not suggesting it is insidious or hostile; obviously free college benefits the poor and working classes. However it (like climate change) is a priority driven by the educated class, and I don't see how that can be considered anything other than elitism. When your political movement is being led by an elite class (which, given national statistics, the college-or-more educated crowd certainly is), it is inherently elitist, no matter how much it looks out for those below it.

 

Because a good idea comes from an elite group makes the policy proposal elitist then by default?

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