Greatoneshere Posted January 12, 2020 Share Posted January 12, 2020 4 hours ago, skillzdadirecta said: And this is the problem with this portrayal of the Joker. There are no redeeming qualities to the classical version of the character and no logic or pattern to the crimes he commits which is why he's so tough for Batman to pin down. The Joker is completely random in his thought process, but there's a brilliance there as well. Arthur Fleck is basically a mentally unbalanced outcast who snaps and then proceeds to enact retribution on everyone that he perceives as having wronged him. There's really not much difference in his thought process and that of your typical school shooter... yet here we are talking about how empathetic he is This is EXACTLY the problem I had with the messaging of this film from day one. It's an "elseworlds" tale ala Red Son, I think there's room for all kinds of different interpretations of the Joker. It's also totally normal and believable to empathize with this version of the Joker whilst at the same time condemning his actions, because his problems are, to a certain degree, systemic and institutional - the world/society isn't taking care of him the way it should. That's where the empathy for his character comes from, he is in part a product of the system. Doesn't excuse his actions, but there is certainly sympathy and empathy for him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperSpreader Posted January 12, 2020 Share Posted January 12, 2020 24 minutes ago, Greatoneshere said: It's an "elseworlds" tale ala Red Son, I think there's room for all kinds of different interpretations of the Joker. It's also totally normal and believable to empathize with this version of the Joker whilst at the same time condemning his actions, because his problems are, to a certain degree, systemic and institutional - the world/society isn't taking care of him the way it should. That's where the empathy for his character comes from, he is in part a product of the system. Doesn't excuse his actions, but there is certainly sympathy and empathy for him. It's easier to label things as catoonishly black and white. Unfortunately the world is just mud. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skillzdadirecta Posted January 12, 2020 Share Posted January 12, 2020 25 minutes ago, Greatoneshere said: It's an "elseworlds" tale ala Red Son, I think there's room for all kinds of different interpretations of the Joker. It's also totally normal and believable to empathize with this version of the Joker whilst at the same time condemning his actions, because his problems are, to a certain degree, systemic and institutional - the world/society isn't taking care of him the way it should. That's where the empathy for his character comes from, he is in part a product of the system. Doesn't excuse his actions, but there is certainly sympathy and empathy for him. It's also easy to just make a movie about a character like this and not call it "Joker" with all of the baggage that brings. Martin Scorsece did it 40 years ago with a little movie called Taxi Driver. When it comes to characters, you don't get more "catoonishly black and white" than the Joker. That's appeal of his character. Making him a perpetual victim of a society that does justify his actions to a degree which is why I said earlier that having him only exact his "righteous retribution" on obvious assholes muddies the water in what the film is trying to say. They STILL play him as an anti-hero in this movie which just doesn't work for me. It's why Rob Zombie's Halloween movies didn't work. We didn't need to see WHY Micheal Myers became Micheal Myers... He just IS. This movie tries to have it every which way... It's a one off that has nothing to do with Batman but it gives us a new take on his origin. Arthur is a victim AND a Perpetrator... don't cheer his actions, except he only kills the most unsympathetic characters in the movie because the filmmakers don't want you to REALLY be uncomfortable with him as the protagonist. Again, if folks enjoy the movie fine. There's some really good things in it, particularly Phoenix' performance and the cinematography. But the movie itself is weak. I look forward to seeing them undo the world they've created with the sequel though when you have Batman and all of his gadgets and bullshit running around THIS Gotham. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greatoneshere Posted January 12, 2020 Share Posted January 12, 2020 5 minutes ago, skillzdadirecta said: It's also easy to just make a movie about a character like this and not call it "Joker" with all of the baggage that brings. Martin Scorsece did it 40 years ago with a little movie called Taxi Driver. When it comes to characters, you don't get more "catoonishly black and white" than the Joker. That's appeal of his character. Making him a perpetual victim of a society that does justify his actions to a degree which is why I said earlier that having him only exact his "righteous retribution" on obvious assholes muddies the water in what the film is trying to say. They STILL play him as an anti-hero in this movie which just doesn't work for me. It's why Rob Zombie's Halloween movies didn't work. We didn't need to see WHY Micheal Myers became Micheal Myers... He just IS. This movie tries to have it every which way... It's a one off that has nothing to do with Batman but it gives us a new take on his origin. Arthur is a victim AND a Perpetrator... don't cheer his actions, except he only kills the most unsympathetic characters in the movie because the filmmakers don't want you to REALLY be uncomfortable with him as the protagonist. Again, if folks enjoy the movie fine. There's some really good things in it, particularly Phoenix' performance and the cinematography. But the movie itself is weak. I look forward to seeing them undo the world they've created with the sequel though when you have Batman and all of his gadgets and bullshit running around THIS Gotham. You sound too beholden to the mythos to me. I watched it and felt this was still a true variation of the Joker, just emphasizing some qualities more than others. I didn't watch it and think: "that wasn't the Joker" as I was watching it. Still felt like the Joker to me (for an origin story). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skillzdadirecta Posted January 12, 2020 Share Posted January 12, 2020 5 minutes ago, Greatoneshere said: You sound too beholden to the mythos to me. I watched it and felt this was still a true variation of the Joker, just emphasizing some qualities more than others. I didn't watch it and think: "that wasn't the Joker" as I was watching it. Still felt like the Joker to me (for an origin story). No, I'm not "beholden to the mythos" I'm beholden to solid storytelling. Sure this is "a version of The Joker"... cool. It's just not a very interesting or compelling version of the character to me and brings nothing new to the character other than to make him an anti-hero... like dozens of other characters out there. This version of the Joker strips everything that makes the character unique and just makes him a mentally disturbed man. That's a take, sure. Alan Moore's "Origin story" in the Killing Joke managed to both make the Joker sympathetic AND reprehensible. This movie actively avoids making the Joker reprehensible which to me, personally, misses the point of the character Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greatoneshere Posted January 12, 2020 Share Posted January 12, 2020 Just now, skillzdadirecta said: No, I'm not "beholden to the mythos" I'm beholden to solid storytelling. Sure this is "a version of The Joker"... cool. It's just not a very interesting or compelling version of the character to me and brings nothing new to the character other than to make him an anti-hero... like dozens of other characters out there. This version of the Joker strips everything that makes the character unique and just makes him a mentally disturbed man. That's a take, sure. Alan Moore's "Origin story" the Killing Joke managed to both make the Joker sympathetic AND reprehensible. This movie actively avoids making the Joker reprehensible which to me, personally, misses the point of the character That doesn't mean it's not an honest variation/take on the Joker. Whether that made for a good film, I agree with you, is debatable, but this was still the Joker to me at least. I wonder what other peoples' takes are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skillzdadirecta Posted January 12, 2020 Share Posted January 12, 2020 6 minutes ago, Greatoneshere said: That doesn't mean it's not an honest variation/take on the Joker. Whether that made for a good film, I agree with you, is debatable, but this was still the Joker to me at least. I wonder what other peoples' takes are. Which is why I said Quote Sure this is "a version of The Joker"... cool. I just don't find it to be an interesting take for the reasons I stated. I do feel like there is a good movie to be made dealing with a mentally disturbed individual who slips through the cracks of an uncaring, unsympathetic society... it just would probably be better served not having to carry the baggage of a comic book villain. In my humble opinion. All of the Batman stuff hurts this movie to me. It doesn't help it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperSpreader Posted January 12, 2020 Share Posted January 12, 2020 #notMyJoker Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarSolo Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 This isn’t an interesting movie. It’s Taxi Driver with less hookers and more clown makeup. This Joker would have gotten a wedgie from LEGO Batman. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spawn_of_Apathy Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 13 minutes ago, MarSolo said: This isn’t an interesting movie. It’s Taxi Driver with less hookers and more clown makeup. This Joker would have gotten a wedgie from LEGO Batman. Wasn’t that kind of a point in the movie? He got beat up by kids. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skillzdadirecta Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 2 hours ago, Spawn_of_Apathy said: Wasn’t that kind of a point in the movie? He got beat up by kids. The MOVIE doesn't know what its point was. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commissar SFLUFAN Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 2 hours ago, Spawn_of_Apathy said: Wasn’t that kind of a point in the movie? He got beat up by kids. That we live in a society? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 2 hours ago, MarSolo said: This isn’t an interesting movie. It’s Taxi Driver with less hookers and more clown makeup. This Joker would have gotten a wedgie from LEGO Batman. King of Comedy is the flick it really rips off Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spawn_of_Apathy Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 6 minutes ago, SFLUFAN said: That we live in a society? That he was a weak push over. Of course LEGO Batman could give him a weggie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild Posted January 14, 2020 Share Posted January 14, 2020 Well I seem to be way out on my own on this one. How the hell anyone nominated this dude for director is beyond me. This was overwrought garbage that steals, not homages, from about everything. Typically I take an "Academy can do it's thing" attitude, but this one has me perplexed. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brick Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 https://www.patreon.com/posts/33213577 Film Crit Hulk on the movie. Very well written article (well aside from some grammar and spelling errors here and there, and calling Arthur's co-workers fellow cab drivers instead of clowns ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CastlevaniaNut18 Posted January 18, 2020 Share Posted January 18, 2020 Finally watched it. I’m o mother same page as a lot of others. Phoenix was great, but the messaging felt muddled. I’m not going to say it was bad, but I’m not quite sure how I feel after that. And I won’t be watching it again any time soon. Actually, you know what? I think I’m gonna watch Downton Abbey this weekend, @skillzdadirecta 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bacon Posted March 8, 2020 Share Posted March 8, 2020 I watched this for the first time, and I also rented Knives Out and watched it for what is my second time right after. I enjoyed seeing Knives Out again more than seeing Joker for the first time. Joker wasn't bad, but I felt the trailers were presenting a movie that was actually better than what I watched. Like, I definitely would have preferred what I thought I was getting. I am not sure what I thought I was going to get, but it was something else I guess. Like, I don't know. It was just kinda... eh? I saw all the praise and I just expected something greater. I wasn't expecting for this to be a favorite movie of mine, but I thought it would have liked it more than, "It was fine." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spawn_of_Apathy Posted March 8, 2020 Share Posted March 8, 2020 13 hours ago, Bacon said: I watched this for the first time, and I also rented Knives Out and watched it for what is my second time right after. I enjoyed seeing Knives Out again more than seeing Joker for the first time. Joker wasn't bad, but I felt the trailers were presenting a movie that was actually better than what I watched. Like, I definitely would have preferred what I thought I was getting. I am not sure what I thought I was going to get, but it was something else I guess. Like, I don't know. It was just kinda... eh? I saw all the praise and I just expected something greater. I wasn't expecting for this to be a favorite movie of mine, but I thought it would have liked it more than, "It was fine." I liked the movie, but it doesn’t feel like a movie I want or need to see more than once. I’d definitely see Knives Out again. Especially with somebody who has not seen it. I think you were kind of set up with Joker because you didn’t see it before the hype grew larger than the movie itself. It’s not “11 Academy Award nominations” good. Maybe some think it is. One thing it is not is it isn’t particularly a “fun”, “cool”, or “badass” movie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaysWho? Posted April 26, 2020 Share Posted April 26, 2020 Holy shit, what a pile of shit. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skillzdadirecta Posted April 26, 2020 Share Posted April 26, 2020 1 hour ago, SaysWho? said: Holy shit, what a pile of shit. I was wondering why I got a notification about this topic You're just seeing it I take it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keyser_Soze Posted April 26, 2020 Share Posted April 26, 2020 5 hours ago, SaysWho? said: Holy shit, what a pile of shit. It's an Oscar winning movie bruh! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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