Sony Days Gone OT - Queasy Rider (Update: Horde DLC)

[Duderino]

On 4/11/2019 at 12:57 PM, fuckle85 said:

 

I think this is an optimistic but potentially inaccurate take.  It's easy to see a message boards thread and the amount of complaining and nitpicking and chalk it up to  "just insulated messageboard culture", but when you're talking about a large accumulative userbase across multiple boards and social media platforms and opinions expressed from various corners of the world, it seems possible to me the internet response to games can be indicative enough of offline reactions as well, and there's not much evidence I'm aware of that contradicts this.  Do you have proof this isn't the case?

 

Also I don't think "a drop in the bucket" accurately describes the extent to which the attitudes of complaining/entitlement/non-constructive criticism/passions/etc you see everywhere on the internet may both reflect and influence the sales and potential cultural impact of games unless you're referring to the far more extreme and toxic subcultures in gaming, which ARE a vocal minority and are definitely not perspectives considered by most of the industry, or even entertained on most of the popular message boards, at least not as much these days. 

 

But there's still a prevalence in other various reactions online, negative or otherwise that you see among game consumers, and game studios still on some level consider these reactions when making their products since one of their main goals is to please a broad audience.

 

That said, unless there's actual quantitative data that can pinpoint the extent of how influential consumer reaction is and how much that, along with streams and professional reviews, impact financial success and cultural impact of a games, we're mostly just a bunch of dudes on a message board speculating here.  

 

One thing that does seem to be pretty clear though is the quality of the game itself can significantly determine how successful critically, culturally and financially it will be, but sometimes this isn't the case either.  

There are ample concrete examples in this thread of AAA tittles smeared online, far worse than anything thrown at Days Gone, that performed way better than message boards, youtubers, articles, and even reviews would indicate.  If there is a strong correlation, why has it failed to make a sizable difference on soo many occasions?   

 

Which brings us to Days Gone.  

Why would its success be any more at the whim of internet negativity?  Is a hot take like “gamers are sick of zombies” really enough to burry Days Gone’s future?

[fuckle85]

3 hours ago, Duderino said:

There are ample concrete examples in this thread of AAA tittles smeared online, far worse than anything thrown at Days Gone, that performed way better than message boards, youtubers, articles, and even reviews would indicate.  If there is a strong correlation, why has it failed to make a sizable difference on soo many occasions?   

 

Which brings us to Days Gone.  

Why would its success be any more at the whim of internet negativity?  Is a hot take like “gamers are sick of zombies” really enough to burry Days Gone’s future?

 

I dunno, tbh I'm kinda over this debate having presented what I feel is enough evidence to back up my argument.

 

Now I'm just fascinated by all the freudian slips in your post here. 

[crispy4000]

2 hours ago, fuckle85 said:

 

I dunno, tbh I'm kinda over this debate having presented what I feel is enough evidence to back up my argument.

 

 

What evidence?  We’ve seen public outcry on forums, twitter, etc, be a mismatch for sales for many times this gen.  Watch Dogs.  Both Battlefront games.  Mass Effect Andromeda.  Sea of Theives.  Etc.

 

We’ve seen games that didn’t get discussed often on gaming sites sell gangbusters.  Wildlands.  Madden.  CoD WW2.  LoL.  Minecraft.  Etc.

 

Not to mention almost the entire F2P market.  A lot of game communities out there that pretty much only converse with themselves.  If they’re motivated to post at all.  There’s tons of revenue being generated there.

 

You seem to dismiss the idea of a vocal critical minority.  I’m convinced at this point that the general public isn’t as nitpicky or loud as the enthusiasts.  It only makes sense, as it’s played out time and time again.  To make a counterarguement, we need better evidence that the vocal opinion can reliably reflect takeaways of those who don’t comment.  Or who might be drowned out by the enthusiasts.

 

[SaysWho?]

Just preordered today.

[Duderino]

2 hours ago, fuckle85 said:

 

I dunno, tbh I'm kinda over this debate having presented what I feel is enough evidence to back up my argument.

 

Now I'm just fascinated by all the freudian slips in your post here. 

How does your argument account for Watch Dogs, Ghost Recon Wildlands, No Man Sky, Mafia III, etc?  What do you make of Days Gone's current success on the Amazon charts?  Seems only fair to consider all the evidence, right?

I think your point is applicable to games going from bad (little to no buzz) to worse (widespread negativity), but I do question how well it fits here.

[CastlevaniaNut18]

I preordered Days Gone, RDR2, Spider-Man, and God of War on Jan 19, 2017. Before Amazon started collecting sales tax and with my old Prime discount. 

 

Let's hope Days Gone is closer to Spider-Man and GoW and not RDR2 in terms of my enjoyment with it.

[SaysWho?]

6 minutes ago, CastlevaniaNut18 said:

I preordered Days Gone, RDR2, Spider-Man, and God of War on Jan 19, 2017. Before Amazon started collecting sales tax and with my old Prime discount. 

 

Let's hope Days Gone is closer to Spider-Man and GoW and not RDR2 in terms of my enjoyment with it.

 

In terms of scripted gameplay, this game clearly is filled with emergent gameplay, with some missions being completely different based on the weather (don't know how many).

 

I can't say shit as far as how you'll enjoy the controls.  

[fuckle85]

6 hours ago, crispy4000 said:

 

What evidence?  We’ve seen public outcry on forums, twitter, etc, be a mismatch for sales for many times this gen.  Watch Dogs.  Both Battlefront games.  Mass Effect Andromeda.  Sea of Theives.  Etc.

 

We’ve seen games that didn’t get discussed often on gaming sites sell gangbusters.  Wildlands.  Madden.  CoD WW2.  LoL.  Minecraft.  Etc.

 

Not to mention almost the entire F2P market.  A lot of game communities out there that pretty much only converse with themselves.  If they’re motivated to post at all.  There’s tons of revenue being generated there.

 

You seem to dismiss the idea of a vocal critical minority.  I’m convinced at this point that the general public isn’t as nitpicky or loud as the enthusiasts.  It only makes sense, as it’s played out time and time again.  To make a counterarguement, we need better evidence that the vocal opinion can reliably reflect takeaways of those who don’t comment.  Or who might be drowned out by the enthusiasts.

 

 

Now we're gonna act like Madden, CoD, LoL and Minecraft aren't popular games that everyone knows about? Ok.  

 

I'm not dismissive of fact that there is a vocal minority out there (the perception that the louder voices which are critical of a game are indicative of the overall opinion about a game).  I just don't think it's accurate to say the reaction online as a whole, from all the active gaming boards like Era and Gaf to Reddit and all the social media platforms from Twitter to Twitch, is that of a vocal critical minority or whatever.  Maybe on a single message board or social media platform alone, but not the entire internet.

 

I also don't think it's a coincidence that the reaction to Mass Effect 3's ending online was negative, so the ending was changed, just like I don't think it was a coincidence that there were some short term PR issues No Man's Sky team had to contend with after the fiasco with the rage on steam, or that ME:A and the studio that made it are no longer slated to make another one after the backlash that was shown online. And arguing that sales alone account for a game's reputation ignores that and the fact that CoD Infinite Warfare and Advanced Warfare, the top selling games of their years, get put on sale faster and in the bigger picture aren't talked about as much as a God of War or Red Dead Redemption.  But again, this argument can go on forever because we're arguing over something in which data that proves one of us completely wrong is elusive. There are examples that a game had tons of sales success when impressions online indicated otherwise, and vice versa.  These things are sometimes hard to predict, sometimes not. Ultimately though, it seems pretty clear that public perception, sales and critical reception ALL have impact on a game's success and can influence each other and the long and/or short term success of a game, and that's what my point is, so I'm confused as to why anyone would seem to take a position against it.

 

5 hours ago, Duderino said:

How does your argument account for Watch Dogs, Ghost Recon Wildlands, No Man Sky, Mafia III, etc?  What do you make of Days Gone's current success on the Amazon charts?  Seems only fair to consider all the evidence, right?

I think your point is very applicable to games going from bad (little to no buzz) to worse (widespread negativity), but I do question how well it fits here.

 

Well, don't remember making a claim with certainty about how much success Days Gone's would have other than saying it doesn't seem like it has a lot of hype, and that short term and/or long term success isn't guaranteed so I hope it does well. I guess that's a controversial statement though ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[CastlevaniaNut18]

45 minutes ago, SaysWho? said:

 

In terms of scripted gameplay, this game clearly is filled with emergent gameplay, with some missions being completely different based on the weather (don't know how many).

 

I can't say shit as far as how you'll enjoy the controls.  

My biggest issues with RDR2 were slow, cumbersome, clunky controls and little boring tasks that filled up gameplay.

 

 

Worst case scenario, if Days Gone is lame, I got it at a discount and can recoup my money if I need to.

[Duderino]

9 minutes ago, fuckle85 said:

Well, don't remember making a claim with certainty about how much success Days Gone's would have other than saying it doesn't seem like it has a lot of hype, and that short term and/or long term success isn't guaranteed so I hope it does well. I guess that's a controversial statement though ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

No one knows exactly how well it will do.  The only debate here is what the factors are and how much they matter.

[crispy4000]

5 hours ago, fuckle85 said:

 

Now we're gonna act like Madden, CoD, LoL and Minecraft aren't popular games that everyone knows about? Ok. 

Never implied they weren't.  I was speaking about discussion, not brand recognition.

Do these franchises generate internet talk proportionate to their success?  Not anymore, typically.  You said that yourself about CoD.  People are still continually talking about these franchises, but its largely in dedicated communities splintered off from the larger gaming audience.

Popular perception elsewhere online can also shift: by others stereotyping the playerbase, praising a competitor, criticizing monetization, etc.  At the end of the day, there's still a milllions of people coming back to these games as devoted fans.

That's another problem with placing too much emphasis on the Internet's opinion at large.  Not everyone will have the patience for the same games.  Tastes are a selective thing.  At least with sales, we have a metric on what has broader appeal.
 

5 hours ago, fuckle85 said:

 

I'm not dismissive of fact that there is a vocal minority out there (that the louder voices which are critical of a game are indicative of the overall opinion about a game).  I just don't think it's accurate to say the reaction online as a whole, from all the active gaming boards like Era and Gaf to Reddit and all the social media platforms from Twitter to Twitch, is that of a vocal critical minority or whatever.  Maybe on a single message board or social media platform alone, but not the entire internet.

 

A vocal minority is not defined as "indicative of the overall opinion."  There's times when it is.  But I think you're mistaken to place so much emphasis on it with how often their percieved outlook is out of whack.

 

The other problem here is that you're trying to broaden the online reaction to such a degree to where there is no emergent voice.
 

Lumping Era+Gaf+Reddit+Twitter+Twitch+Facebook+Discord+whatever else togther... it's all going to get very murky.  Full of subnetworks/circles that don't interact much on the game with a larger collective.  And differing majority/minority opinions across outlets. 

What "doesn't seems like it has a lot of hype" is most definitely the result of how you percieve the internet bubbles you interact with.  But if I've tried to make any point in this thread, it's that when a game is discussed a lot, viewed a lot, marketed a lot, and pre-ordered a lot, it has appeal and can be expected to sell a lot.

Reviews, message board reactions, enthusiast repution, etc, hardly factor into initial success at launch if all the above is there, and the game isn't a dumpster fire.  Or at least a bigger one than Anthem.

 

5 hours ago, fuckle85 said:

 

I also don't think it's a coincidence that the reaction to Mass Effect 3's ending online was negative, so the ending was changed, just like I don't think it was a coincidence that there were some short term PR issues No Man's Sky team had to contend with after the fiasco with the rage on steam, or that ME:A and the studio that made it are no longer slated to make another one after the backlash that was shown online. And arguing that sales alone account for a game's reputation ignores that and the fact that CoD Infinite Warfare and Advanced Warfare, the top selling games of their years, get put on sale faster and in the bigger picture aren't talked about as much as a God of War or Red Dead Redemption.  But again, this argument can go on forever because we're arguing over something in which data that proves one of us completely wrong is elusive. There are examples that a game had tons of sales success when impressions online indicated otherwise, and vice versa.  These things are sometimes hard to predict, sometimes not. Ultimately though, it seems pretty clear that public perception, sales and critical reception ALL have impact on a game's success and can influence each other and the long and/or short term success of a game, and that's what my point is, so I'm confused as to why anyone would seem to take a position against it.

 

I've never said that sales alone account for a game's reputation.  But I do know that with franchises like CoD, there's many more people enjoying them than most other retail games in a given year.

I believe you've overstated the importance of a positive reputation to "success" for highly marketed and highly discussed games.  Especially at launch.  That's it in a nutshell.

[Mercury33]

Can you guys start a new thread for the debate or take it to PMs or something. I keeping thinking something new about the game is getting posed and instead it’s another short novella on socials media’s impact on game sales lol

[crispy4000]

1 hour ago, Mercury33 said:

Can you guys start a new thread for the debate or take it to PMs or something. I keeping thinking something new about the game is getting posed and instead it’s another short novella on socials media’s impact on game sales lol 

 

I'll take it to a new thread.
EDIT: nevermind, too tired tonight.

[fuckle85]

1 hour ago, crispy4000 said:

Never implied they weren't.  I was speaking about discussion, not brand recognition.


Do these franchises generate continual internet talk proportionate to their success?  Not typically.  You said that yourself about CoD.  People are still constantly talking about these franchises, but its mostly in dedicated communities siphoned off from the larger gaming audience.

Popular perception elsewhere online can also shift: in others stereotyping the playerbase, extolling a competitor, criticizing monetization, etc.  At the end of the day, there's still a ton of people coming back to them games as devoted fans.  Different strokes for different folks.


That's one of the many problems of placing too much emphasis on the Internet's opinion at large.  Not everyone will have the patience for the same games.  Tastes are a selective thing.  At least with sales, we have a better metric on what has broader appeal.
 

A vocal minority is not, by definition, "indicative of the overall opinion."  There's times it is, but IMO, you're mistaken to place this much emphasis on it with how often it's off the mark.  (ie: sales vs forum discussion)

 

The other problem here is that you're trying to broaden the online reaction to such a degree to where there is no emergent voice.
 

Lumping Era+Gaf+Reddit+Twitter+Twitch+Facebook+Discord+whatever else togther... it's all going to get very murky.  Full of subnetworks/circles that don't interact much with a larger collective about the game.  And differing majority/minority opinions across outlets. 

What "doesn't seems like it has a lot of hype" is most definitely the result of how you percieve social bubble you interact with.  But if I've tried to make any point in this thread, it's that when game is discussed a lot, viewed a lot, and pre-ordered a lot, it has appeal and can be expected to sell a lot.

Reviews, message board reactions, enthusiast repution, etc, hardly is factor into its initial success at launch if all the above is there, and the game isn't a dumpster fire.  Or at least a bigger one than Anthem.

 

I've never said that sales alone account for a game's reputation.  But I do know that with franchises like CoD, there's many more people enjoying them than most other retail games in a given year.

In a nutshell, I take issue with the degree you've overstated the importance of internet reputation to "success" for highly marketed and highly discussed games.

 

 

*perception that louder voices are indicative of general opinion.  

 

Also the fact that popular perception shifts is implied in the phrasing of the term itself, so no need to explain.  As I've mentioned earlier,  I'm know that press coverage, discussion and the quality of the actual game more than anything tend to determine how it shifts. 

 

Reviews, message board reactions, "enthusiast" reputation (whatever that means), etc, don't necessarily determine how successful a game can be, but they can indicate it, as we saw with Anthem and Mass Effect Andromeda and see with games that generate lots of buzz like Spider-man and RDR.  Call i the hype effect or the "this game looks like trash" effect or whatever you'd like,  sometimes it can and does happen and is easily observable and can be predicted via reactions online (from streamers, reviewers and anyone else).  Andromeda wasn't even that bad, nor was Mass Effect 3's ending, but here we are in an existence where 3's ending was retconned because of fan disappointment and the entire series is on hiatus now for probably several reasons including the inability of Andromeda matching the expectations from buyers that was building up since the third game.  

 

I know that popular opinion and the opinion of all consumers are not particularly useful when discussing the merits of games, but I'm a) somewhat cynical and feel skeptical that most video game players have the critical thinking skills to be aware of this and/or have the most discerning palettes (which might explain why so many endless early access janky steam games often sell as much as they do imho) and b) pretty sure much of the game industry agrees with me and looks at reactions to their games online even if for no other reason than to get marketing data (but follow enough lead devs on twitter or on Era and you realize sometimes genuine feedback, depending on how it's articulated and from whom, is gained as well). 

 

Anywho, if your main point is that when a game is discussed a lot, viewed a lot and shows that it has appeal and sales potential, that it's only from marketing data pulled from surveys and focus testing in real life and that the discussions of it on social media and active gaming and entertainment boards (some of which developers themselves post on) aren't considered as well, than I think you're understating how influential reviews and online discussions about a game can be.  But if you concede that marketing data via stuff like focus testing is often prioritized while streamer and reviewer impressions, online discussions and the quality of the game itself all simultaneously can contribute to both short and long term success of a game, then you actually agree with me. 

 

Either way I'm gonna leave it at that because this thread really is getting kinda derailed rn and holy shit is this a boring subject to debate.

[crispy4000]

23 minutes ago, fuckle85 said:

 

 

 

Anywho, if your main point is that when a game is discussed a lot, viewed a lot and shows that it has appeal and sales potential, that it's only from marketing data pulled from surveys and focus testing in real life and that the discussions of it on social media and active gaming and entertainment boards (some of which developers themselves post on) aren't considered as well, than I think you're understating how influential reviews and online discussions about a game can be.  But if you concede that marketing data via stuff like focus testing as well as streamer and reviewer impressions, online discussions and the quality of the game itself all simultaneously contribute to both short and long term success of a game, then you actually agree with me.  

 

Either way I'm gonna leave it at that because holy shit is this a boring subject to debate.

All simultaneously contribute in some manner, but for AAA games today, internet reactions and reviews matter much less in the short term than the long term.  Other factors like marketing are more important.

[fuckle85]

16 minutes ago, crispy4000 said:

All simultaneously contribute in some manner, but for AAA games today, internet reactions and reviews matter much less in the short term than the long term.  Other factors like marketing are more important.

Agreed 100%

 

(not entirely, but I think it's reasonable to assume that we are both simultaneously making some good points and being full of shit until several perspectives with marketing cred in the games industry quantify to what extent online hype can be influential) 

[SaysWho?]

I guess others did, but I'll chime in to say that I didn't mind this discussion whatsoever.

[Duderino]

It's been a while since I've seen such a disconnect between online discussion around a title and actual market interest.

Days Gone is tracking very strong. Pre-orders are great especially for a new IP.

Last time I remember something like this was Ghost Recon Wildlands.

— Benji-Sales (@BenjiSales) April 14, 2019

[crispy4000]

Welp, there it is.   Encapsulates this discussion as it relates to the game itself.

[Mercury33]

22 hours ago, SaysWho? said:

I guess others did, but I'll chime in to say that I didn't mind this discussion whatsoever.

 

I don’t mind it either. I’m just asking it get moved because of how off topic it’s become 🤷🏻‍♂️

[Pikachu]

 

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

 

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

The OST is SHOCKINGLY good!

[crispy4000]

Shots from photomode & some gifs from the trailer:

 

[johnny]

Definitely getting this 

[SaysWho?]

 

[Dre801]

With my gaming and purchase patterns, I'll be playing this in 2021.  Just started HZD this year and it takes me ages to finish open world games.; finished Fallout 4 in December of last year. . .got it at launch.

[johnny]

20 hours ago, johnny said:

Definitely getting this 

I preordered it 

[SaysWho?]

10 minutes ago, Dre801 said:

With my gaming and purchase patterns, I'll be playing this in 2021.  Just started HZD this year and it takes me ages to finish open world games.; finished Fallout 4 in December of last year. . .got it at launch.

 

Fortunately, HZD isn't super long. The base game and the DLC I can plat in 65 - 70 hours. It was actually shocking to me that Yakuza 0 was longer with no plat involved. Then again, the cabaret club was too fun to put down.  

[crispy4000]

 

[SaysWho?]

 

[crispy4000]

A streaming embargo drops today.  Gamersyde is uploading some 4k vids:

 

Higher quality versions than youtube on their website too.  They've got a whole bunch more footage there.
 

+ a lower quality vid showing off weather transition:

 

 

[SaysWho?]

I'm really excited for the game despite expectations that it won't be Horizon/God of War/Uncharted/Bloodborne levels of awesome. I think as long as my expectations are realistic, I'll have fun and really dig what Bend is doing.

 

Side note: the people with early access to Dreams are blown the fuck away. Sony's going to have a great year.

[crispy4000]

Sounds like Bend is delivering.  Still tempering my expectations, but it should be solid at least.

[XxEvil AshxX]

Considering I'm just now getting around to Spider-Man and Kingdom Hearts III, can't wait to play this 6-8 months from now!