Television Game of Thrones - Season 8 - Starting April 14th

[skillzdadirecta]

20 minutes ago, Spork3245 said:

 

It’s (this episode) just as badly compressed on the app  

 

That sucks. They really need to get this shit together. I saw a Hollywood reporter article that wrongly blamed the cinematography which I'm sure is fine. It's the compression and I can only imagine the folks who worked on the show being pissed as fuck.

[Amazatron]

38 minutes ago, skillzdadirecta said:

 

I discovered a long time ago the best way to watch HBO content is through the app... it's less compressed than the cable signal they send which is awful.

 

Funny because this was the first episode I watched through the app so I thought that was the problem.  Ended up fiddling with TV settings multiple times before just turning up the brightness so high that everything looked washed out just to see anything.

[skillzdadirecta]

Actual physical media will always be the best way to watch this stuff because it's the least compressed... but since physical media is dying out, we'll always be at the mercy of compression regardless of how good your TV is.

[TwinIon]

I know HBO is still just proud that their streaming platform manages to continue functioning and have no real interest in increasing quality, but good lord their compression continues to suck. How is it no bright mind at AT&T has looked at Netflix's pricing and thought "I bet we could charge more money for the same content if we offer it at a higher quality." It's been almost 7 years since the same complaints were raised about the Battle of the Blackwater. This is the most expensive television show in history, a cultural touchstone that HBO is unlikely to equal. You think Jeff Bezos would allow LOTR to look so bad? I wish there was some way to see it in higher quality. Hell, if they didn't release it Endgame weekend, they could have sold tickets.

 

Anyways, as for the episode itself.

 

I know we've seen a few of these, but I still think it's incredible to get 80min of a battle of this scale on screen. You pretty much can't spend that much of a movie on a single battle. Freaking Endgame, for all it's build up and all it's funding, couldn't spend that much time on one battle. It's amazing that we get something like this at all.

 

I thought the battle itself was fun to watch. I'm long past analyzing the battle strategies on GoT. My interpretation was that the Dothraki just kinda went off on their own, and it wasn't really the plan, but whatever. The lights of their swords going out was a very effective opener. As was the incredible wave of undead breaking on the first lines of unsullied. The mix between epic battle and zombie horror worked well for me.

 

I was continually surprised when characters kept popping up, still alive. I bet there are a dozen points where it felt like they could have killed off a few characters. Grey Worm felt like his time had come every time he was on screen. Brienne could easily have died protecting Jamie, same for the Hound protecting Arya. Hell, when Tyrion said he could be making a difference, I thought he might actually try, and die along the way. For whatever it's worth, the show had done a good job of making me feel like anyone could die at any time.

 

Which is probably why it was almost deflating when so few did. I think the deaths we did get were well done, but were still rather few. I imagine that a lot of the next episode will be about the great cost of this battle; the almost complete loss of the Dothraki and Unsullied, the few remaining wildlings, the last pieces of the armies of the North and the Vale. I can appreciate that we saw those numbers dwindle, but you felt that Rob Stark was winning because he captured Jamie, not because we saw a field of dead Lannisters. The snap wasn't tragic for the loss of all those nice Wakandan soldiers or the trillions of randos that got dusted, it's the loss of those main characters that gives it impact. My first reaction to this battle is that, while thrilling, it didn't take as heavy a toll as it might have because almost everyone was spared. That doesn't necessarily mean it's the wrong call for the larger story (for whatever there is left of it), but I do think that it lacked a certain emotional weight.

 

I was a surprised as anyone that the Night King died, but looking back I suppose I shouldn't have been. This is ultimately a story about human power dynamics. While the army of the dead was an ever-present threat, they really didn't have a significant impact on the politics until very recently. The good guys that fought for the living will be disadvantaged because of their heroism. The people of Westeros won't rally to your cause because of that sacrifice, even if they believe the story. If there's one thing that the show has been consistent about, it's that good deeds don't sow their own rewards, and often end up costing even more.

[RedSoxFan9]

I didn’t have any problems with it being too dark even though we watched on a projector.  I believe we used HBOGo 

[Ghost_MH]

Yeah, this episode was hideous. I'm clinging to my old Panasonic plasma and it usually looks great when it comes to deep blacks, but this episode was trash. It looks like a combination of bad calibration and awful Comcast compression.

[Spork3245]

1 minute ago, RedSoxFan9 said:

I didn’t have any problems with it being too dark even though we watched on a projector.  I believe we used HBOGo 

 

The issue was more the banding than the darkness (which of course affects dark scenes).

[skillzdadirecta]

It made sense for the Dothraki to lead the charge because one... that's their main strength in battle. They're the best Cavalry in the world in the GOT's universe and two, despite fighting an army of undead, they were still employing traditional medieval battle strategies... lead with your horses and ranged weapons, follow through with infantry.  It didn't work because they were fighting an enemy no one had ever fought before.

[Spork3245]

3 minutes ago, skillzdadirecta said:

It made sense for the Dothraki to lead the charge because one... that's their main strength in battle. They're the best Cavalry in the world in the GOT's universe and two, despite fighting an army of undead, they were still employing traditional medieval battle strategies... lead with your horses and ranged weapons, follow through with infantry.  It didn't work because they were fighting an enemy no one had ever fought before.

 

Sure, it makes sense for Dothraki to charge... but it just doesn’t make sense to do a frontline charge at all given the situation. Jon saw how these things zerg-rush back at Hardhome, so it’s not like the way the Zombies fight is a big mystery, plus there was supposedly over 100k of them.  

[skillzdadirecta]

1 minute ago, Spork3245 said:

 

Sure, it makes sense for Dothraki to charge... but it just doesn’t make sense to charge at all. Jon saw how these things zerg-rush back at Hardhome, so it’s not like the way the Zombies fight is a big mystery, plus there was supposedly over 100k of them.  

 So you what, wait for them to rush you and overwhelm you? No you keep them back for as long as you can... their goal was to try and push them back and hold them off long enough to try the draw the night king off. You don't do that by giving ground. Made sense to me 

[skillzdadirecta]

I would have LOVED for Theon to shout "What is dead may never die!" right before rushing the Night King. Then the Night King looks and him and says "I know." 

[Spork3245]

5 minutes ago, skillzdadirecta said:

 So you what, wait for them to rush you and overwhelm you?

 

You wait for their charge then have the Dothraki hit with a charge on their flank. The wights seemed to focus their attack on a single side of Winterfell, the Dothraki could have split on two sides of the castle then pincered. 

How much time was bought by that charge? 15 seconds? I’d imagine keeping your warriors alive and in the fight buys a heck of a lot more time than needlessly throwing away some of your best fighters on a suicide charge  

[Amazatron]

4 minutes ago, skillzdadirecta said:

 So you what, wait for them to rush you and overwhelm you? No you keep them back for as long as you can... their goal was to try and push them back and hold them off long enough to try the draw the night king off. You don't do that by giving ground. Made sense to me 

 

Umm, at the very least you would draw them in and then flank them with the Dothraki from the sides.  Charging your fiercest warriors first, blindly into a wight hoard is a ridiculous strategy.

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

Traditional military use of cavalry involves either flank attacks, attacks from the rear after sweeping wide on the flanks to get behind the attacking force, or exploiting gaps in the lines caused by the infantry.  By those standards, that Dothraki charge was militarily...unsound.

 

But when facing an army of the undead, I guess all bets are off, eh?

[Mr.Vic20]

2 minutes ago, SFLUFAN said:

Traditional military use of cavalry involves either flank attacks, attacks from the rear after sweeping wide on the flanks to get behind the attacking force, or exploiting gaps in the lines caused by the infantry.  By those standards, that Dothraki charge was militarily...unsound.

 

But when facing an army of the undead, I guess all bets are off, eh?

https://www.wired.com/story/game-of-thrones-winterfell-battle-tactical-analysis/?utm_social-type=owned&utm_medium=social&mbid=social_twitter&utm_brand=wired&utm_source=twitter&utm_campaign=wired

 

 

[Mercury33]

Yeah GoT has never really been big on employing actual battle tactics.  Its a tough jump when you finish watching something like The Last Kingdom and go right into GoT lol.  They were the very best horsemen on the planet, and in theory, no infantry can withstand a heavy cavalry charge.  But these guys weren't heavy cavalry, their horses had no armor and could be cut down fairly easily.  Given the sheer massive size of the Unsullied forces the strategy would have been so sucker in the dead, have the the Unsullied in a shield wall.  Then you probably go all William Wallace and get some kind of fire traps out in the fields so you could potentially cut the rushing zombie forces in half, at least for a time.  Then you have the Dothraki outflank the zombies and hit them from the sides while the dragons pick apart the zombies stuck beyond the fire traps set in the field.  Obviously the sheer massive amount of the zombies would over come all of that with the their "wave" attacks.  But that would have been cool to see from a strategy stand point.

All that being said, I did LOVE the sheer panic and confusion they were able to convey.  Seeing main characters fighting in the back ground without actually being focused on.  Not really knowing what was going on, who was a zombie and who was your own man.  Not that I've ever been in a medieval battle but I'd imagine he captured it beautifully 

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

@TwinIon - I really do think the relative dearth of "major" character deaths is an instance of the writers subverting the expectations of practically everyone.

 

Except me.  I totally called it!

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

Yeah, I want to amend what I posted earlier.  I should have said that those are the traditional military uses of unarmored "light" cavalry like the Dothraki.  As @Mercury33 pointed out, heavy armored cavalry can charge directly at infantry.

[TwinIon]

Did the Dothraki augment their weapons with dragonglass? I guess being on fire should have been useful, but they weren't exactly planning on that.

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

In fact, I'm gonna claim that it actually sets up a far more interesting home stretch run for the series finale that so many of the major players are still around to continue playing the Game.

[eggydoo]

I'm fine with the battle even though not tactically sound cause I remember in the books they always touted as Rob Stark being the military genius.  But maybe it's cause all generals in this universe are dumbasses so that's why Rob seemed like a military genius?  

[TheGreatGamble]

1 minute ago, eggydoo said:

I'm fine with the battle even though not tactically sound cause I remember in the books they always touted as Rob Stark being the military genius.  But maybe it's cause all generals in this universe are dumbasses so that's why Rob seemed like a military genius?  

GRRM is a huge fan of military battles, and makes huge diorama’s of historical battles. Paints figures, builds fortifications, etc etc. So I doubt this battle will go the same way for the books.

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

1 minute ago, TheGreatGamble said:

GRRM is a huge fan of military battles, and makes huge diorama’s of historical battles. Paints figures, builds fortifications, etc etc. So I doubt this battle will go the same way for the books.

Oh, I don't think we need concern ourselves with this battle being executed the same way in the books...or appearing in them at all.

[Nokt]

33 minutes ago, SFLUFAN said:

Traditional military use of cavalry involves either flank attacks, attacks from the rear after sweeping wide on the flanks to get behind the attacking force, or exploiting gaps in the lines caused by the infantry.  By those standards, that Dothraki charge was militarily...unsound.

 

But when facing an army of the undead, I guess all bets are off, eh?

 

26 minutes ago, Mercury33 said:

Yeah GoT has never really been big on employing actual battle tactics.  Its a tough jump when you finish watching something like The Last Kingdom and go right into GoT lol.  They were the very best horsemen on the planet, and in theory, no infantry can withstand a heavy cavalry charge.  But these guys weren't heavy cavalry, their horses had no armor and could be cut down fairly easily.  Given the sheer massive size of the Unsullied forces the strategy would have been so sucker in the dead, have the the Unsullied in a shield wall.  Then you probably go all William Wallace and get some kind of fire traps out in the fields so you could potentially cut the rushing zombie forces in half, at least for a time.  Then you have the Dothraki outflank the zombies and hit them from the sides while the dragons pick apart the zombies stuck beyond the fire traps set in the field.  Obviously the sheer massive amount of the zombies would over come all of that with the their "wave" attacks.  But that would have been cool to see from a strategy stand point.

All that being said, I did LOVE the sheer panic and confusion they were able to convey.  Seeing main characters fighting in the back ground without actually being focused on.  Not really knowing what was going on, who was a zombie and who was your own man.  Not that I've ever been in a medieval battle but I'd imagine he captured it beautifully 

I never really got the hint that battle tactics were the Dothraki's strong point. They didn't even really have a battle commander, I guess Jorha could have stepped up and led them, I just don't really see whats essentially a band of barbarians be great a dealing with tactics.

 

The worst part for me is Jon and Dany. Jon sat on the wall for a really good chunk of time doing.... nothing. I get that he was looking for the NK, but man have the dragon spit some fire or circle around Winterfell. I'm pretty sure you see the "generals" on the outer edge of the forest that get completely ignored. Kill them and probably a decent enough group of the army would die. 

[jinx8402]

Just now, Nokt said:

 

 I'm pretty sure you see the "generals" on the outer edge of the forest that get completely ignored. Kill them and probably a decent enough group of the army would die. 

To be fair, Jon did see them and went after them, but was hit by the snow/ice storm.

[Spork3245]

10 minutes ago, TheGreatGamble said:

GRRM is a huge fan of military battles, and makes huge diorama’s of historical battles. Paints figures, builds fortifications, etc etc. So I doubt this battle will go the same way for the books.

 

Plus, the books will have ice spiders

 

[Spork3245]

BTW, who’s going to be leading Bear Island now? I had a feeling The Little Bear was going to die, but I thought Jorah was going to pull through and wind up full circle being forgiven and becoming the leader of Bear Island, like his father always wanted. At least they had Lyanna go out like a god damned boss.

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

1 minute ago, Spork3245 said:

BTW, who’s going to be leading Bear Island now? I had a feeling The Little Bear was going to die, but I thought Jorah was going to pull through and wind up full circle being forgiven and becoming the leader of Bear Island, like his father always wanted. At least they had Lyanna go out like a god damned boss.

Direct control by whoever wins the "Last War".

[Spork3245]

8 minutes ago, jinx8402 said:

To be fair, Jon did see them and went after them, but was hit by the snow/ice storm.

 

Yea, Jon tried going for them, but just before he got into range one of the WW looked up at him and called in that ice storm.

[Spork3245]

5 minutes ago, SFLUFAN said:

Direct control by whoever wins the "Final War".

 

That’s not what I’m referencing. Of course House Mormont answered to a Stark, but they were still responsible for their island under Stark or whoever actually ruled. I guess the best way to ask my question is to compare house leadership to being a mayor and the ward to being a governor... if Sansa/Jon is the governor (Danny currently President), who is Bear Islands mayor going to be?  

I guess it will no longer be under House Mormont as I think Lyanna was the last surviving one, discounting the exiled Jorah.

[TwinIon]

I remember hearing about how some musicians will try out sound mixes in their cars before finalizing the record, with the assumption being that's most people will be listening to it. You push it through the MP3 compression, plug it in with an AUX cable or use bluetooth compression as well, and see how it sounds "in the real world."

 

 

I feel like they don't go through a similar process on GoT, and they probably should. I have to imagine that when they were mastering this episode on their perfectly calibrated 4K monitors from the nearly raw source, it looked pretty good. They really should have a 2 year old $400 Vizio off to the side that they can watch it through the crazy compression algorithm that everyone will actually see. Movies are one thing, mastering it towards a theatrical experience, but for TV, even TV like GoT, they should take this kind of thing into more consideration.

 

If they did actually do that, it doesn't show.

 

[TwinIon]

7 minutes ago, Spork3245 said:

That’s not what I’m referencing. Of course House Mormont answered to a Stark, but they were still responsible for their island under Stark or whoever actually ruled. I guess the best way to ask my question is to compare house leadership to being a mayor and the ward to being a governor... if Sansa/Jon is the governor (Danny currently President), who is Bear Islands mayor going to be?  

I guess it will no longer be under House Mormont as I think Lyanna was the last surviving one, discounting the exiled Jorah.

I don't recall how specific they got, but I thought that everyone North of Winterfell had basically completely evacuated. In episode 1 the Umber kid was just getting more help to get everyone down from Last Hearth. Bear Island is a bit North of even that. Of course, it's an island, and it wasn't directly in the path from Eastwatch to Winterfell, so maybe they didn't evacuate completely.

 

My point being that there just might not be many left from Bear island at all, and it's very unlikely to be anyone in the line of succession. I would guess that makes it just like any other swath of land in the North.

[Spork3245]

1 minute ago, TwinIon said:

I don't recall how specific they got, but I thought that everyone North of Winterfell had basically completely evacuated. In episode 1 the Umber kid was just getting more help to get everyone down from Last Hearth. Bear Island is a bit North of even that. Of course, it's an island, and it wasn't directly in the path from Eastwatch to Winterfell, so maybe they didn't evacuate completely.

 

My point being that there just might not be many left from Bear island at all, and it's very unlikely to be anyone in the line of succession. I would guess that makes it just like any other swath of land in the North.

 

You don’t think the survivors are going back to their homes after the war?

[GeneticBlueprint]

This episode is case in fucking point about why I still buy BDs.

[legend]

1 hour ago, SFLUFAN said:

Oh, I don't think we need concern ourselves with this battle being executed the same way in the books...or appearing in them at all.

 

Or the books appearing for that matter.