Gaming Accessories Looks like 2019 Will Be The Year to Buy OLED

[Spork3245]

TBF, freesync =/= HDMI 2.1’s VRR

nVidia could support HDMI 2.1 VRR and still ignore freesync

[Mr.Vic20]

35 minutes ago, Spork3245 said:

TBF, freesync =/= HDMI 2.1’s VRR

nVidia could support HDMI 2.1 VRR and still ignore freesync

They could, and eventually they will, but its Nvidia so... Ignore -> PR blitz with support thing ignored, that lags far behind the initial claims -> eventual capitulation to market forces a year or two after everyone is pissed.  

[Spork3245]

6 minutes ago, Mr.Vic20 said:

They could, and eventually they will, but its Nvidia so... Ignore -> PR blitz with support thing ignored, that lags far behind the initial claims -> eventual capitulation to market forces a year or two after everyone is pissed.  

 

Well... d’uh  

[legend]

5 hours ago, Mr.Vic20 said:

I’ll take it but LOL at their 65” monitor offering! Here is hoping this means some TVs will be supported. We still need HDMI 2.1 to make that happen though and I don't expect that until late this year with the 21xx refresh. 

 

You don't need HDMI 2.1 hardware to support the VRR feature. There are TVs that don't support the hardware, but do support the feature. So hopefully that means they could add support for VRR even with the current cards that are HDMI 2.0 hardware.

[Mr.Vic20]

7 minutes ago, legend said:

 

You don't need HDMI 2.1 hardware to support the VRR feature. There are TVs that don't support the hardware, but do support the feature. So hopefully that means they could add support for VRR even with the current cards that are HDMI 2.0 hardware.

Hmmm, right, good point! I keep thinking it does, mainly because I've been eyeing a move to a 4K 120Hz OLED.  HDMI 2.1 will be needed strictly from a bandwidth perspective, but I keep erroneously included the bevy of other features as if they require the HDMI2.1. It would appear that my techo greed hem is showing! 

[Spork3245]

21 minutes ago, legend said:

 

You don't need HDMI 2.1 hardware to support the VRR feature. There are TVs that don't support the hardware, but do support the feature. So hopefully that means they could add support for VRR even with the current cards that are HDMI 2.0 hardware.

 

If you’re referencing Samsung’s QLED, it supports Freesync, not HDMI 2.1’s VRR. Whether that will translate into HDMI 2.1 VRR compatibility is currently unknown afaik.

[AbsolutSurgen]

18 minutes ago, Spork3245 said:

 

If you’re referencing Samsung’s QLED, it supports Freesync, not HDMI 2.1’s VRR. Whether that will translate into HDMI 2.1 VRR compatibility is currently unknown afaik.

I had thought that the implementation of VRR in HDMI 2.1 was essentially FreeSync.

 

What I haven't seen anywhere is confirmation that the HDMI 2.1 VRR will support HDR.  (I expect it will, but...)

[TwinIon]

Looks like that crazy rollable OLED from last year will actually become a real product:

 

 

I think this is awesome, even though it'll be far more expensive than any reasonable person would pay. Their wallpaper display starts at $8k, and this one includes an ATMOS sound bar.

[AbsolutSurgen]

52 minutes ago, TwinIon said:

Looks like that crazy rollable OLED from last year will actually become a real product:

 

 

I think this is awesome, even though it'll be far more expensive than any reasonable person would pay. Their wallpaper display starts at $8k, and this one includes an ATMOS sound bar.

Needing your TV to roll out of a box, so that it can be "hidden away" is not for reasonable people..... 

[Spork3245]

1 hour ago, mikechorney said:

I had thought that the implementation of VRR in HDMI 2.1 was essentially FreeSync.

 

What I haven't seen anywhere is confirmation that the HDMI 2.1 VRR will support HDR.  (I expect it will, but...)

 

No, it’s similar but is not the same, it is the same type of software-based idea, though, afaik. I’m not saying it’s not possible for Samsung to put out an update that allows its current Freesync implementation to be used as HDMI 2.1’s VRR, what I am saying is that it’s currently unknown if it’s possible for them to do that unless I missed an announcement somewhere, and thus conclusions shouldn’t be assumed.

 

Also, yes, HDMI 2.1 VRR will support HDR, just like Freesync and GSync already do

[Keyser_Soze]

7 hours ago, mikechorney said:

Needing your TV to roll out of a box, so that it can be "hidden away" is not for reasonable people..... 

 

Having a huge TV you have to display is for people trying to compensate for a small penis.

[AbsolutSurgen]

2 minutes ago, Keyser_Soze said:

 

Having a huge TV you have to display is for people trying to compensate for a small penis.

Paying $8k for a huge TV that rolls up into a tiny box is compensating for an even smaller one.

[Keyser_Soze]

38 minutes ago, mikechorney said:

Paying $8k for a huge TV that rolls up into a tiny box is compensating for an even smaller one.

 

But you could take it anywhere with very little effort. Seems worth the money to me.

[AbsolutSurgen]

1 hour ago, Keyser_Soze said:

 

But you could take it anywhere with very little effort. Seems worth the money to me.

Small penises are very portable.

[DarkStar189]

10 hours ago, TwinIon said:

I think this is awesome, even though it'll be far more expensive than any reasonable person would pay. Their wallpaper display starts at $8k, and this one includes an ATMOS sound bar.

 

That custom stand/sound bar combo would be outrageous in price before you even factor in the 65" rolling tv.  

[Keyser_Soze]

45 minutes ago, mikechorney said:

Small penises are very portable.

 

But no one wants one.

[legend]

11 hours ago, Spork3245 said:

 

If you’re referencing Samsung’s QLED, it supports Freesync, not HDMI 2.1’s VRR. Whether that will translate into HDMI 2.1 VRR compatibility is currently unknown afaik.

 

No, it supports both freesync and HDMI 2.1 VRR. I'm pretty sure we've had this discussion before  

 

You can find it stated in a few places, but here is one reference

https://www.flatpanelshd.com/news.php?subaction=showfull&id=1522745972

Quote

In addition, the same 2018 Samsung TVs will support two variable refresh rate systems. If you are a PC gamer you already know AMD’s FreeSync, which ensures that the PC / console and display remain in perfect sync even if the game’s frame rate fluctuates, leading to extremely smooth gameplay with very low lag.

FreeSync is one of the systems supported by Samsung’s new TVs, meaning that you can use them as a capable gaming monitor for your PC.

 

The other supported system is HDMI 2.1’s so-called VRR (variable refresh rate), which is the HDMI Organization’s standardized version that largely resembles FreeSync in form and function but is intended for TVs. It is not identical to FreeSync, according to Samsung. Now to be clear, we should emphasize that Samsung’s 2018 TVs do not feature full HDMI 2.1. These TVs are still based on the HDMI 2.0 interface standard but manufacturers are allowed to cherry-pick certain features from HDMI 2.1 to bring to HDMI 2.0 based TVs, as we reported in January. That is why Samsung can bring VRR support to its latest TVs.

 

[Spork3245]

8 minutes ago, legend said:

 

No, it supports both freesync and HDMI 2.1 VRR. I'm pretty sure we've had this discussion before  

 

You can find it stated in a few places, but here is one reference

https://www.flatpanelshd.com/news.php?subaction=showfull&id=1522745972

 

 

No, our discussion was on HDR.  

That also confirms that Freesync =/= HDMI 2.1 VRR and is promising that nVidia may actually support it, then (since they wouldn’t have to concede monitors).

[legend]

5 minutes ago, Spork3245 said:

 

No, our discussion was on HDR.  

 

I absolutely have talked about this on this forum, because it was in that conversation where I looked up to see if it was just Freesync or also HDMI 2.1 VRR and is when I learned they supported both. If was not with you, then it was with someone here!  

 

5 minutes ago, Spork3245 said:

That also confirms that Freesync =/= HDMI 2.1 VRR and is promising that nVidia may actually support it, then (since they wouldn’t have to concede monitors).

 

Yeah, Freesync is definitely "different." Probably not in a meaningful way, but at least enough that support for one doesn't guarantee support for the other. Hopefully they will add the HDMI 2.1 feature on their current cards too. Fingers crossed.

[Spork3245]

9 minutes ago, legend said:

 

I absolutely have talked about this on this forum, because it was in that conversation where I looked up to see if it was just Freesync or also HDMI 2.1 VRR and is when I learned they supported both. If was not with you, then it was with someone here!  

 

Not with me, as I would have definitely remembered about VRR support  

 

Quote

 

Yeah, Freesync is definitely "different." Probably not in a meaningful way, but at least enough that support for one doesn't guarantee support for the other. Hopefully they will add the HDMI 2.1 feature on their current cards too. Fingers crossed.

 

Unfortunately, I don’t think it would be possible as a firmware/driver update for the current cards. The Q9, like the XboneX, has an “almost” HDMI 2.1 port/hardware (or maybe just an “upgraded HDMI 2.0 port”? Whatever you want to call it  ). The ports in question are above HDMI 2.0 spec, but may not be 2.1 compliant as, in Microsoft’s case, they did as close to the specification as possible, though some was guessing as 2.1 wasn’t finalized when they were making the hardware. To my knowledge, the GTX 1xxx series are straight-up unmodified HDMI 2.0 ports, though, I’m not certain what’s required for the VRR to be supported, but I do have doubts it’s purely software dependent.

[legend]

34 minutes ago, Spork3245 said:

 

Not with me, as I would have definitely remembered about VRR support  

 

 

Unfortunately, I don’t think it would be possible as a firmware/driver update for the current cards. The Q9, like the XboneX, has an “almost” HDMI 2.1 port/hardware (or maybe just an “upgraded HDMI 2.0 port”? Whatever you want to call it  ). The ports in question are above HDMI 2.0 spec, but may not be 2.1 compliant as, in Microsoft’s case, they did as close to the specification as possible, though some was guessing as 2.1 wasn’t finalized when they were making the hardware. To my knowledge, the GTX 1xxx series are straight-up unmodified HDMI 2.0 ports, though, I’m not certain what’s required for the VRR to be supported, but I do have doubts it’s purely software dependent.

 

I haven't seen any indication that cherry picking the VRR feature requires new cables/ports because it doesn't require the increased bandwidth that the 2.1 spec brings. If they did, you wouldn't be able to do 2.1 VRR on the QLED (et al) with 2.0 cables. TVs naturally need hardware that can process VRR so it's not like TVs can just upgrade via firmware, but the current cables can transmit the signal and I haven't see any reason why a GPU that already can do VRR wouldn't be able to broadcast it over the 2.0 port. Do you have any sources indicating otherwise?

[stepee]

“Freesync” monitors will be compatible with nvidia’s new drivers, I wanted to make sure to note there is a manual option for ones not currently said as compatible because of some

of the confusion. It’s esentially going to be broad with a little bit of ymmv. They didn’t use the term freesync, a trademark of amd, for obvious reasons. 

 

To support vrr on tvs, the 2.1 standard is what is going to make it work well. From what I understand the firmware updates on last years models are not good and will only further complicate things in the eyes of consumers.

 

This entire argument is confusing though, it’s a nice big tech mumbo jumbo of terms and standards, and marketing that confuses the standards.

 

But! At the end of the day it’s looking great for gamers.

[stepee]

https://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/samsung-qled-tv-freesync-firmware/

 

Also besides the fact that they say it might not work correctly, which I’ve heard issues with it, note that it still can’t use it beyond 60hz at 4k. The real deal comes out later this year.

[Spork3245]

9 hours ago, legend said:

 

I haven't seen any indication that cherry picking the VRR feature requires new cables/ports because it doesn't require the increased bandwidth that the 2.1 spec brings. If they did, you wouldn't be able to do 2.1 VRR on the QLED (et al) with 2.0 cables. TVs naturally need hardware that can process VRR so it's not like TVs can just upgrade via firmware, but the current cables can transmit the signal and I haven't see any reason why a GPU that already can do VRR wouldn't be able to broadcast it over the 2.0 port. Do you have any sources indicating otherwise?

 

As stepee’s above link indicates, the “let’s make it freesync until 2.1 is available” is limited due to current bandwidth constraints. IIRC, VRR (and the HDMI 2.1 standard) requires 120hz 4k capability through the HDMI port, which is why the XboneX has a modified port. nVidia hasn’t stated either way if the 1xxx series is capable of higher bandwidth than the 2.0 standard on its HDMI port. Also, it may or may not be worth noting that, to my knowledge, GSYNC and nVidias new found support of Freesync are through DP, not HDMI afaik.

I just wouldn’t get overly hopeful that current HDMI 2.0 video cards will retroactively support 2.1’s VRR or any 2.1 feature until something official is stated.

[legend]

29 minutes ago, Spork3245 said:

 

As stepee’s above link indicates, the “let’s make it freesync until 2.1 is available” is limited due to current bandwidth constraints. IIRC, VRR (and the HDMI 2.1 standard) requires 120hz 4k capability through the HDMI port, which is why the XboneX has a modified port.

I just wouldn’t get overly hopeful that current HDMI 2.0 video cards will retroactively support 2.1’s VRR or any 2.1 feature until something official is stated.

 

If it needed higher bandwidth, then you wouldn't be able to use 2.0 cables though. Higher bandwidth would  be needed for VRR at higher framerates, sure, but that's because higher framerate requires higher bandwidth  VRR at typical <= 60Hz would still seems feasible, if Nvidia wants to do it.

 

I wouldn't say I'm getting overly hopeful, because technically feasible doesn't mean Nvidia will do it. I'm surprised they went this far as it is. But I don't think we should write it off as possible either.

[Spork3245]

11 minutes ago, legend said:

 

If it needed higher bandwidth, then you wouldn't be able to use 2.0 cables though. Higher bandwidth would  be needed for VRR at higher framerates, sure, but that's because higher framerate requires higher bandwidth  VRR at typical <= 60Hz would still seems feasible, if Nvidia wants to do it.

 

I wouldn't say I'm getting overly hopeful, because technically feasible doesn't mean Nvidia will do it. I'm surprised they went this far as it is. But I don't think we should write it off as possible either.

 

I must’ve edited my post right before you replied. Something else to consider:

It may or may not be worth noting that, to my knowledge, GSYNC and nVidias new found support of Freesync are through DP, not HDMI afaik.

 

Also, I understand that it could support up to the current standard of 60hz, however, since 2.1 VRR is based on up to 120hz, would the TV even properly accept a 60hz limited signal or simply see that there’s not enough bandwidth available from the connection and not allow the feature? 

[legend]

37 minutes ago, Spork3245 said:

 

I must’ve edited my post right before you replied. Something else to consider:

It may or may not be worth noting that, to my knowledge, GSYNC and nVidias new found support of Freesync are through DP, not HDMI afaik.

 

Yep that's right. Right now, as far as I can tell, this announcement just means you can use freesync over DP. The main question is if they're indicating more willingness to go outside Gsync alone, will they go further and support  VRR over HDMI since TVs are finally starting to support it. I can imagine that they might not support Freesync over HDMI, but would support HDMI 2.1 VRR since that's what TVs will primarily be adopting.

 

Of course, none of that matters if it's not technically feasible. But so far everything I've seen indicates it is, which leaves us with whether they will.

 

Quote

Also, I understand that it could support up to the current standard of 60hz, however, since 2.1 VRR is based on up to 120hz, would the TV even properly accept a 60hz limited signal or simply see that there’s not enough bandwidth available from the connection and not allow the feature? 

 

If current TVs can do it over 2.0 cables, then the spec doesn't seem care about the max bandwidth potential.

 

I don't know near enough details about the setting to speak authoritatively, but as a developer, I wouldn't code it to require the bandwidth if the feature doesn't actually need it in all scenarios. Instead, I'd just send the meta data about the support and call it a day. If the source says it's outputting VRR at rates <= 60hz I only care that I received the signal, not whether I could receive higher.

[Spork3245]

1 hour ago, legend said:

 

Yep that's right. Right now, as far as I can tell, this announcement just means you can use freesync over DP. The main question is if they're indicating more willingness to go outside Gsync alone, will they go further and support  VRR over HDMI since TVs are finally starting to support it. I can imagine that they might not support Freesync over HDMI, but would support HDMI 2.1 VRR since that's what TVs will primarily be adopting.

 

Of course, none of that matters if it's not technically feasible. But so far everything I've seen indicates it is, which leaves us with whether they will.

 

 

If current TVs can do it over 2.0 cables, then the spec doesn't seem care about the max bandwidth potential.

 

I don't know near enough details about the setting to speak authoritatively, but as a developer, I wouldn't code it to require the bandwidth if the feature doesn't actually need it in all scenarios. Instead, I'd just send the meta data about the support and call it a day. If the source says it's outputting VRR at rates <= 60hz I only care that I received the signal, not whether I could receive higher.

 

The current TVs that are doing it patched in Freesync to do it and aren’t using 2.1’s VRR tech, the demos where they show 2.1 VRR tech in action aren’t using HDMI but the internal storage, just like the 4k 120hz demos.

[legend]

45 minutes ago, Spork3245 said:

 

The current TVs that are doing it patched in Freesync to do it and aren’t using 2.1’s VRR tech, the demos where they show 2.1 VRR tech in action aren’t using HDMI but the internal storage, just like the 4k 120hz demos.

 

Samsung claims it will support 2.1 VRR as well. Whether they've backpedaled though, I'm not aware.

 

I'll add that it would be peculiar if Freesync over a HDMI 2.0 cable is possible at <=60hz but not HDMI 2.1 VRR.

[Spork3245]

57 minutes ago, legend said:

I'll add that it would be peculiar if Freesync over a HDMI 2.0 cable is possible at <=60hz but not HDMI 2.1 VRR.

1

 

I'm probably not explaining well so let me try to clarify my concern; the TV may need to "see"/"recognize" another 2.1 port to enable the feature. My concern isn't the Samsung TV, as it has modified 2.0 port that may or may not actually be fully 2.1 compliant (from a bandwidth standpoint at the very least), my concern is the connection of said modified HDMI 2.0 port to a standard 2.0 port and the feature still working (especially on a full-fledged 2.1 TV and/or receiver that is looking for a 2.1-2.1 connection to enable 2.1 features). An example of this may be the 1.3 HDMI Sony 4k TV from several years back that had all of the 1.4 features but lacked the ports: it could fully use 1.4 features,  but only internally or via USB, unless you upgraded the ports (Sony smartly made the HDMI circuit board removable and plug-and-play to allow the 1.3 ports to be replaced with 1.4 ports) - obviously the example isn't the best as I'm talking about the GPU's HDMI and not the TVs, but the part that stands would be that a 9xx and 1xxx card are capable of likely all the 2.1 features, however, the 2.0 port would or could limit it from actually doing so (especially since nVidia has their VRR versions currently only available through a DP connection).

Obviously, if the 2018 QLEDs pass nVidia's Freesync to GSync standards, they could potentially use their "Freesync mode" via nVidia's GPUs, but my concern is TVs that do not have Freesync and only use 2.1 VRR which has the 120hz 4k standard in place and may or may not accept a signal not capable of that. I'm not saying that it's not possible, I'm just stating my concern as to why it may not be.

 

Also, worth mentioning, it looks from nVidia's new GSync chart/characterization/naming scheme that the non-hardware GSync monitors (Freesync monitors) won't be capable of HDR through GSync, unless I'm misunderstanding the chart.

Spoiler

 

[AbsolutSurgen]

@Spork3245 I don't think that chart addresses whether HDR will be available for "G-Sync compatible".  I think it refers to Nvidia's "Best HDR" -- as numerous monitors claim to be HDR,  but don't struggle with low light output.

[legend]

31 minutes ago, Spork3245 said:

 

I'm probably not explaining well so let me try to clarify my concern; the TV may need to "see"/"recognize" another 2.1 port to enable the feature. My concern isn't the Samsung TV, as it has modified 2.0 port that may or may not actually be fully 2.1 compliant (from a bandwidth standpoint at the very least), my concern is the connection of said modified HDMI 2.0 port to a standard 2.0 port and the feature still working (especially on a full-fledged 2.1 TV and/or receiver that is looking for a 2.1-2.1 connection to enable 2.1 features). An example of this may be the 1.3 HDMI Sony 4k TV from several years back that had all of the 1.4 features but lacked the ports: it could fully use 1.4 features,  but only internally or via USB, unless you upgraded the ports (Sony smartly made the HDMI circuit board removable and plug-and-play to allow the 1.3 ports to be replaced with 1.4 ports) - obviously the example isn't the best as I'm talking about the GPU's HDMI and not the TVs, but the part that stands would be that a 9xx and 1xxx card are capable of likely all the 2.1 features, however, the 2.0 port would or could limit it from actually doing so (especially since nVidia has their VRR versions currently only available through a DP connection).

Obviously, if the 2018 QLEDs pass nVidia's Freesync to GSync standards, they could potentially use their "Freesync mode" via nVidia's GPUs, but my concern is TVs that do not have Freesync and only use 2.1 VRR which has the 120hz 4k standard in place and may or may not accept a signal not capable of that. I'm not saying that it's not possible, I'm just stating my concern as to why it may not be.

 

My understanding is the actual port between 2.0 and 2.1 is the same. The cables are not. This article at least claims as much, but they could be wrong or conflating cables being backwards compatible with changes to the port.

 

If they are not the same port in ways that go beyond facilitating faster bandwidth, it's possible VRR could require a new interface, although that would seem unnecessary since you can push freesync over the existing 2.0 port.

 

Alternatively, it's possible that some of the controller to the port on the Nvidia board adds rigidity in what can be sent out making it impossible.

 

As I stated earlier, I don't know enough about the specific to speak authoritatively on the matter, and it's hard to find these details on the net. But I wouldn't write it off unless you know of something specifically saying it cannot be done.

 

Quote

 

Also, worth mentioning, it looks from nVidia's new GSync chart/characterization/naming scheme that the non-hardware GSync monitors (Freesync monitors) won't be capable of HDR through GSync, unless I'm misunderstanding the chart.

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

I'm not sure how HDR plays into the story.

[Mr.Vic20]

Reading through this thread, I marvel at what a middle american Jabroni would make of all this?!  Good luck marketers! 

[legend]

1 minute ago, Mr.Vic20 said:

Reading through this thread, I marvel at what a middle american Jabroni would make of all this?!  Good luck marketers! 

 

"So I need to get monster cables? Got it."

[Spork3245]

13 minutes ago, legend said:

 

My understanding is the actual port between 2.0 and 2.1 is the same. The cables are not. This article at least claims as much, but they could be wrong or conflating cables being backwards compatible with changes to the port.

 

If they are not the same port in ways that go beyond facilitating faster bandwidth, it's possible VRR could require a new interface, although that would seem unnecessary since you can push freesync over the existing 2.0 port.

 

Alternatively, it's possible that some of the controller to the port on the Nvidia board adds rigidity in what can be sent out making it impossible.

 

As I stated earlier, I don't know enough about the specific to speak authoritatively on the matter, and it's hard to find these details on the net. But I wouldn't write it off unless you know of something specifically saying it cannot be done.

 

 

I'm not sure how HDR plays into the story.

 

I can’t imagine that the port is the same and the difference is only the cable, to my knowledge, 2.0 ports are not capable of the higher bandwidth output of 2.1. It would be odd if 2.0 ports are capable of the 48gbps of 2.1 but the cables were limited for no reason...?

 

HDR is a factor as why in gods name wouldn’t you want HDR?  As mentioned, the chart is confusing, but may suggest that “GSync compatible displays” (Freesync) are not capable of using HDR with VRR enabled on an nVidia card and it requires the actual GSync module (maybe).