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SFLUFAN

Brazil's new right-wing government begins destruction of rain forest because "the gringos did it first"

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. “More than 15% of national territory is demarcated as indigenous land and quilombos. Less than a million people live in these places, isolated from true Brazil, exploited and manipulated by NGOs. Together we will integrate these citizens,” he posted.

Seems like a nice guy!

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"Silas Malafaia, an influential televangelist and close friend of Bolsonaro, said developed countries who centuries ago cut down their own forests should pay if they wanted Brazil to preserve the Amazon.

“We’re going to preserve everything because the gringos destroyed what they had?” he said."

 

When sticking it to the white man goes wrong. What kind of attempt at logic is this even? 

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3 minutes ago, Bloodporne said:

"When sticking it to the white man goes wrong. What kind of attempt at logic is this even? 

Televangelist logic

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A former army captain, Mr Bolsonaro is not instinctively an economic liberal. However, he has entrusted economic policy to a genuine believer in free markets. Paulo Guedes, a former banker with a doctorate from the University of Chicago, wants to lighten many of the burdens that have weighed down the economy. Since 1980 gdp growth has averaged just 2.6%, far below that of many other emerging-market economies. Mr Guedes wants to deregulate, simplify the enterprise-crushing tax code, privatise state-owned firms and slash the enormous budget deficit, which was an estimated 7% of gdp last year.

 

He recognises that the most important reform is to slash pension costs which, at 12% of gdp, are roughly the same size in Brazil as they are in richer, older countries and on course to become staggeringly larger. The changes will be painful. They include raising the effective retirement age (Mr Bolsonaro began collecting a military pension when he was 33) and changing the rule for adjusting the minimum wage, to which pensions are linked. Without this, the government has little hope of containing its growing public debt or complying with a constitutional amendment that freezes spending in real terms. An ambitious reform, by contrast, could keep inflation and interest rates low, hastening Brazil’s recovery and accelerating long-term growth.

 

https://www.economist.com/leaders/2019/01/05/the-radical-agenda-of-brazils-new-president?fsrc=scn/tw/te/bl/ed/theradicalagendaofbrazilsnewpresidentthegoodthebadandthescary

The destruction of the rain forest is something I strongly oppose, but I hope some good will come from this nutcase. 

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46 minutes ago, Massdriver said:

https://www.economist.com/leaders/2019/01/05/the-radical-agenda-of-brazils-new-president?fsrc=scn/tw/te/bl/ed/theradicalagendaofbrazilsnewpresidentthegoodthebadandthescary

The destruction of the rain forest is something I strongly oppose, but I hope some good will come from this nutcase. 

 

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6 minutes ago, SFLUFAN said:

 

Exactly. These strongmen/fascists/dictators rely on the business minded to keep support. All the furrowed brows mean nothing because they're still willing to go to bat for these Trump's/MBS's/etc because it means  "reform" for businesses.

 

They are being finally honest though. They care more about $$$ than liberal democratic values.

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Isn't there a line somewhere on the moral spectrum where order outweighs a corrupt "democratic" system? I recognize Brazil isn't it, but it is in a grey area to me. In the Middle East, I'm pretty sure most of us recognize there is a ton of complexity to which regimes should remain in power, overthrown, etc., and sometimes these regimes are not bastions of democratic values, but of stability and against corruption. 

 

Brazil isn't the Middle East, but they do have the highest murder count per year in the world. Their institutions are corrupt, their entire regulatory system is corrupt, and their economy suffers from a ridiculous patchwork of rules that don't make any sense and hurts the working people. Before this nut came along, I guess Brazil was in tip top shape since you had to read the back pages of the NYT/WaPo to see how terrible it was there (how about a recession and two criminal leaders, violent crime off the charts, etc.). 

 

I don't support this guy, I'm just trying to be hopeful that maybe some pro market reforms will help people that have been hurting for years. 

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30 minutes ago, Massdriver said:

Isn't there a line somewhere on the moral spectrum where order outweighs a corrupt "democratic" system? I recognize Brazil isn't it, but it is in a grey area to me. In the Middle East, I'm pretty sure most of us recognize there is a ton of complexity to which regimes should remain in power, overthrown, etc., and sometimes these regimes are not bastions of democratic values, but of stability and against corruption. 

 

Brazil isn't the Middle East, but they do have the highest murder count per year in the world. Their institutions are corrupt, their entire regulatory system is corrupt, and their economy suffers from a ridiculous patchwork of rules that don't make any sense and hurts the working people. Before this nut came along, I guess Brazil was in tip top shape since you had to read the back pages of the NYT/WaPo to see how terrible it was there (how about a recession and two criminal leaders, violent crime off the charts, etc.). 

 

I don't support this guy, I'm just trying to be hopeful that maybe some pro market reforms will help people that have been hurting for years. 

Starting off your statement with the regimes of the Middle East is getting off on the wrong foot because NONE of those regimes are bastions "against corruption" -- not a single one of them -- and rather they thrive on it for their very existence.

 

And if the price to pay for that "order" is the stripping of rights and protections of the most vulnerable/marginalized members of Brazilian society?  Where does that fall on the moral spectrum?

 

Do you honestly believe that this order will be used to root out Brazil's endemic corruption for the benefit of the poor in the favelas and not the business interests that already overthrew the Rousseff government in what amounted to a "soft coup"?

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18 minutes ago, SFLUFAN said:

And if the price to pay for that "order" is the stripping of rights and protections of the most vulnerable/marginalized members of Brazilian society?  Where does that fall on the moral spectrum?

 

Do you honestly believe that this order will be used to root out Brazil's endemic corruption for the benefit of the poor in the favelas and not the business interests that already overthrew the Rousseff government in what amounted to a "soft coup"?

I don't believe anything. I just remain hopeful because I have to. The news is quite depressing.

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2 minutes ago, Massdriver said:

I don't believe anything. I just remain hopeful because I have to. The news is quite depressing.

The sooner everyone realizes that "hope" is a goddamned useless four letter word, the better off we all will be.

 

 

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1 hour ago, b_m_b_m_b_m said:

Exactly. These strongmen/fascists/dictators rely on the business minded to keep support. All the furrowed brows mean nothing because they're still willing to go to bat for these Trump's/MBS's/etc because it means  "reform" for businesses.

 

They are being finally honest though. They care more about $$$ than liberal democratic values.

We're kinda iffy on this Hitler guy's statements about Jews, but his industrial policies are totally fine with us!

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10 minutes ago, SFLUFAN said:

The sooner everyone realizes that "hope" is a goddamned useless four letter word, the better off we all will be.

 

 

Some of us require some sort of hope to function, otherwise we fall apart into major depression. 

 

The world is a shitty place. This guy is unlikely to make the world better. I see a decent probability that the economic fortunes of the average Brazilian will get better under this guy based on what I know about Brazil's economy. On the other hand, I see Brazil suffering in nearly every other way. While I don't think Brazil needs as strict of regulation on land in most areas of the country, I strongly support severe restrictions on the rain forest for obvious reasons. Obviously we are looking at Brazil suffering from a break down of due process based on what he's saying about cops shooting suspects with ARs, and then we have demonizing minority groups such as gays and women. My area of hope is narrow, but I emphasize it because the positives that come with the shitty negatives are not always brought up here. 

 

15 minutes ago, SFLUFAN said:

Starting off your statement with the regimes of the Middle East is getting off on the wrong foot because NONE of those regimes are bastions "against corruption" -- not a single one of them -- and rather they thrive on it for their very existence.

 

Agreed, with the narrow exception that the areas that we instituted some sort of "democracy" in recent years such as Afghanistan have suffered even worse corruption than before (I'm open to correction). We really are talking past each other. 

 

I believe in liberal democrat values. Among those values is a market economy. I simply emphasize it more than most here. It would be a mistake to think I don't care about the environment, the poor, minorities, etc. 

 

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7 minutes ago, SFLUFAN said:

We're kinda iffy on this Hitler guy's statements about Jews, but his industrial policies are totally fine with us!

and would you look at inflation now? Worlds better than wheel barrows full to buy bread!

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Apparently Dave Rubin (who's gay for those who don't know) has been making videos for State Media supporting this guy. 

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17 hours ago, Jwheel86 said:

Apparently Dave Rubin (who's gay for those who don't know) has been making videos for State Media supporting this guy. 

David Rubin is by far one of the most effective "useful idiots" the right-wing has working in its favor because he parrots the line that he's a "classical liberal".

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On ‎1‎/‎3‎/‎2019 at 4:58 PM, SFLUFAN said:

 

And if the price to pay for that "order" is the stripping of rights and protections of the most vulnerable/marginalized members of Brazilian society?  Where does that fall on the moral spectrum?

 

 

The sooner everyone realizes that "rights" don't exist and are worthless, the better off we all will be.

 

:cheers:

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49 minutes ago, RedSoxFan9 said:

Human rights activist Bolsonaro

Isn't he complaining about Maduro and Venezuela?

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49 minutes ago, RedSoxFan9 said:

Human rights activist Bolsonaro

Isn't he complaining about Maduro and Venezuela?

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My AIM screen name from high school was Elgringo725. I have nothing else to add to this thread. 

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28 minutes ago, Jose said:

My AIM screen name from high school was Elgringo725. I have nothing else to add to this thread. 

 

When I used to go to Colombia I was nicknamed el gringo.

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1 hour ago, Zaku3 said:

 

When I used to go to Colombia I was nicknamed el gringo.

 

Are you a fabled white Hispanic like me?

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On 1/3/2019 at 6:46 PM, Massdriver said:

Isn't there a line somewhere on the moral spectrum where order outweighs a corrupt "democratic" system? I recognize Brazil isn't it, but it is in a grey area to me. In the Middle East, I'm pretty sure most of us recognize there is a ton of complexity to which regimes should remain in power, overthrown, etc., and sometimes these regimes are not bastions of democratic values, but of stability and against corruption. 

 

Brazil isn't the Middle East, but they do have the highest murder count per year in the world. Their institutions are corrupt, their entire regulatory system is corrupt, and their economy suffers from a ridiculous patchwork of rules that don't make any sense and hurts the working people. Before this nut came along, I guess Brazil was in tip top shape since you had to read the back pages of the NYT/WaPo to see how terrible it was there (how about a recession and two criminal leaders, violent crime off the charts, etc.). 

 

I don't support this guy, I'm just trying to be hopeful that maybe some pro market reforms will help people that have been hurting for years. 

I agree with most of what you’re saying—Brazil is certainly a mess, and it’s foolish to deny it.

 

But that’s why I also think that the focus of reform should be first and foremost about eliminating corruption and graft, *not* about liberalization vs collectivization of the economy.

 

This is where I sometimes disagree with my (classical) liberal friends, in that I don’t believe that capitalist markets are necessarily less corrupt than governments—liberalizing an economy does not in and of itself address the problem of corruption.  Transferring control of an economy’s resources from corrupt government bureaucrats to corrupt oligarchs will not significantly improve its participants quality of life.  Privatizing corruption does not cure it.

 

This is something my friends on the left sometimes don’t understand either, when they think the answer to corruption in industry X is nationalization, but don’t even consider that handing control of an industry to a corrupt government isn’t any better than letting it be run by corrupt capitalists—and that the most salient quality of successful ‘socialist’ countries like the Nordic states is a lack of corruption in public administration.

 

Since the agribusiness lobby in Brazil is just as corrupt as the government, I don’t expect this to do much good.  However, Bolsonaro got in campaigning on the issue of corruption, and I’m hoping that at the very least we get some progress on that front—I would like to see legislation aimed at raising both standards of conduct and the level of oversight of public officials, as well as things like more regular and more stringent audits of state-owned enterprises, government agencies and the central bank.

 

But a cultural change is needed, too, as corruption is at least partially a cultural thing.  I think if we get a less corrupt Brazil, we will ultimately see it’s issues of crime, low productivity, nonsensical regulatory structure, etc. take care of themselves.

 

 

 

 

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(he's only going to go after left wing/leftist corruption, not his own partys corruption and the corruption from the private sector)

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6 minutes ago, b_m_b_m_b_m said:

(he's only going to go after left wing/leftist corruption, not his own partys corruption and the corruption from the private sector)

That is my read as well; I can only hope I am wrong, and that if he doesn’t take on corruption as his voters had hoped he will be kicked out into that special dustbin of history  where all South America’s failed caudillos belong.

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