Nintendo The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time is 20 years old today, update - retrospective article from "The Guardian"

[Xbob42]

6 hours ago, Bloodporne said:

I'm just really taken by how smartly challenging and timeless it feels. It's a joy to play and the atmosphere is amazing. Love that puzzles are simple yet always seem to require creativity and thought without handholding.

 

Most Adventure games are still limping somewhere behind this design 20 years later.

Hell, Zelda itself is still limping along with most releases.

[gamer.tv]

I've played through a good portion of the game, several times (completed once) but dear me, as soon as people start to mention it, it makes me really want to fire it up.

[Bloodporne]

18 hours ago, Xbob42 said:

Hell, Zelda itself is still limping along with most releases.

Very much agree actually. I re-played both Wind Waker and Twilight Princess in the past few years and neither of them are as good as this. And I don't have nostalgia goggles for OoT, I hadn't played it in close to 20 years so it feels completely new.

 

Also, that atmospheric-as-fuck soundtrack is amazing. Love all the weird echo effects and moody tunes. Combined with the N64 fog, it gives it a very mysterious vibe.

[crispy4000]

Honestly, the only 3D Zelda that comes close, with all its blemishes, is Skyward Sword.  Second to that is probably Majora IMO.

 

Master Quest also has the best dungeons in the series.  Replaying OoT that way is basically getting to re-experience it’s puzzle bits.

 

[Bloodporne]

I just hit a point in Master Quest that soured the hell out of me.

 

Was trying to find a way into the Fire Temple for two nights in a row now and finally had to give up and look it up. Turns out I missed a spell as child link that I wasn't even aware existed.

 

So without cheating I would've never been able to solve that. There's nothing I hate more in games than having to cheat, I wonder if this isn't required in the normal game and I fucked up by playing Master Quest first.

 

It sounds absurd but having to resort to cheating ruins playthroughs for me immediately. Wondering if I should drop it and do OG version instead another time. Maybe the requirement to enter that dungeon is different and I didn't spoil that for myself.

[Xbob42]

Hm? What spell did you have to learn as a child? Don't you just learn the Bolero of Fire or something?

[Paperclyp]

It’s remarkable how well OoT holds up, especially considering it was the first of its kind for the most part. 

 

But it certainly feels dated. 

[Bloodporne]

1 hour ago, Xbob42 said:

Hm? What spell did you have to learn as a child? Don't you just learn the Bolero of Fire or something?

Bolero is the song to let you warp there. You have to apparently have Din's Fire which is located in a rather obscure cave while the castle is still intact.

 

It may be particular to Master Quest but there is no indication at all that this spell even exists or that I have to use it there so I was banging my head against the wall for two nights trying to find a solution.

[Xbob42]

Reading up on it, apparently this was also an issue with the original, since while the spell is only needed for the Shadow Temple in that version, it's not amazingly well telegraphed. The first Great Fairy does tell you she has a sister at Hyrule Castle (they each give a hint about the next) but that's not really the same as "HEY BRO THIS IS IMPORTANT." I think someone at Castle Town also brings it up, maybe?

 

I imagine it was a lot more likely you'd have found the spell by the time you got to the Shadow Temple, as I think you do the Fire Temple quite a bit earlier, so the Master Quest probably assumes you played the original first and are somewhat familiar with it.

 

But I totally agree, I hate that kind of thing. You don't even feel bad for looking it up, just annoyed that it was something you'd never consider in a million years.

To my knowledge, there's nothing else like that in the game, but it's been a long time since I played Master Quest.

[Bloodporne]

9 hours ago, Xbob42 said:

Reading up on it, apparently this was also an issue with the original, since while the spell is only needed for the Shadow Temple in that version, it's not amazingly well telegraphed. The first Great Fairy does tell you she has a sister at Hyrule Castle (they each give a hint about the next) but that's not really the same as "HEY BRO THIS IS IMPORTANT." I think someone at Castle Town also brings it up, maybe?

 

I imagine it was a lot more likely you'd have found the spell by the time you got to the Shadow Temple, as I think you do the Fire Temple quite a bit earlier, so the Master Quest probably assumes you played the original first and are somewhat familiar with it.

 

But I totally agree, I hate that kind of thing. You don't even feel bad for looking it up, just annoyed that it was something you'd never consider in a million years.

To my knowledge, there's nothing else like that in the game, but it's been a long time since I played Master Quest.

That's what I'm thinking, that Master Quest probably assumes a certain degree of familiarity with the original. 

 

I totally forgot about the Great Fairy telling me to go see her sister at Hyrule Castle so that might be on me ultimately. What you said though is my exact annoyance with that spot. Up until then, every puzzle/obstacle tends to be solvable in the exact room you're in, adjacent rooms or immediate dungeon...with some logic and brain power. 

 

It's really a personal problem seeing how I decided to play the harder, remixed versions of these first, just pissed off I had to resort to cheating on my "first" playthrough. Well not really first, but hey, it's been basically 20 fucking years and I remember minus zero. I'm too deep into it though to drop it and play the original first now, damn. 

 

@Paperclyp Having completely forgotten every aspect of it like I said above, I'm actually blown away by how modern and slick it feels for a 20 year old early 3D title. No wonder this blew my mind when it came out. 

[Pikachu]

I haven't played Master Quest myself, but most people remark that the dungeons are quite a bit more difficult than the original. I don't recall ever having to use Din's Fire on the Fire Temple. I don't think I used any of the other Great Fairy powers all that much either. 

[TheLeon]

I've gone back to this game on 3DS, and it's a curious sensation. The activity log on my 3DS let me know that I had first played it 7 years ago and had put a solid dozen hours into it. I remembered getting all growed up and I was able to get back to that point pretty quickly, but beyond that I couldn't remember what else I had done. I now realize that I didn't actually get much farther than that, because I didn't remember the forest temple at all. I would have remembered that boss battle at least. 

[Bloodporne]

16 minutes ago, Pikachu said:

I haven't played Master Quest myself, but most people remark that the dungeons are quite a bit more difficult than the original. I don't recall ever having to use Din's Fire on the Fire Temple. I don't think I used any of the other Great Fairy powers all that much either. 

I'm not even that far and the dungeons are definitely a bit tough. Had Souls games and my subsequent hankering for more and more difficulty not stretched my limits considerably, I'd probably call it pretty hard actually. 

[Bloodporne]

Man, the environmental puzzles in dungeons are starting to stump me on a regular basis. Slick bastards.

 

Edit: Nevermind. It's simply that Master Quest does require knowledge of the base game. Just had to look up another roadblock and it turns out it required you to get something more obscure 'out of sequence' than the Dins Fire spell to even enter.

 

Crying fucking shame I have to drop the game at this point. I don't have THAT much gaming time and can't be bothered doing everything again in the base game. I'll return to it another time. Done for now and I was enjoying it massively, damn.

[best3444]

2 hours ago, Bloodporne said:

Man, the environmental puzzles in dungeons are starting to stump me on a regular basis. Slick bastards.

 

Edit: Nevermind. It's simply that Master Quest does require knowledge of the base game. Just had to look up another roadblock and it turns out it required you to get something more obscure 'out of sequence' than the Dins Fire spell to even enter.

 

Crying fucking shame I have to drop the game at this point. I don't have THAT much gaming time and can't be bothered doing everything again in the base game. I'll return to it another time. Done for now and I was enjoying it massively, damn.

 

I'm confused why you are quitting?

[Bloodporne]

44 minutes ago, best3444 said:

 

I'm confused why you are quitting?

It's my first time re-playing OoT since it came out. Assuming the Master Quest version was simply harder, I started that version as my 'first time' back. Turns out Master Quest is assuming a fair amount of knowledge of the base OoT, so to advance in certain areas, there are no indicators of needing items you haven't naturally come across that I think in the base game you would have.

 

Had I played the regular bas OoT I would be familiar with the 'tells' for these items I guess so it's making me have to cheat and look up certain areas since you'd never know what to do without previous base OoT knowledge.

[best3444]

1 hour ago, Bloodporne said:

It's my first time re-playing OoT since it came out. Assuming the Master Quest version was simply harder, I started that version as my 'first time' back. Turns out Master Quest is assuming a fair amount of knowledge of the base OoT, so to advance in certain areas, there are no indicators of needing items you haven't naturally come across that I think in the base game you would have.

 

Had I played the regular bas OoT I would be familiar with the 'tells' for these items I guess so it's making me have to cheat and look up certain areas since you'd never know what to do without previous base OoT knowledge.

 

So "cheat" when you have to and enjoy the game. Christ, I'm using a guide through the regular version right now. Game is difficult. 

[Xbob42]

2 hours ago, best3444 said:

 

So "cheat" when you have to and enjoy the game. Christ, I'm using a guide through the regular version right now. Game is difficult. 

Nah. He's like me. That just... breaks everything. It makes the game feel like it can't stand on its own, like it's unfinished. It kills the momentum and just irritates the shit out of you. I hate when I feel like I have to use a guide. There's nothing hard about it, it's just obtuse.

While some people are happy to play a game guide-in-hand (and that's totally fine!) I think people like us just hate it.

[Nokt]

25 minutes ago, Xbob42 said:

Nah. He's like me. That just... breaks everything. It makes the game feel like it can't stand on its own, like it's unfinished. It kills the momentum and just irritates the shit out of you. I hate when I feel like I have to use a guide. There's nothing hard about it, it's just obtuse.

While some people are happy to play a game guide-in-hand (and that's totally fine!) I think people like us just hate it.

Yeah, but Master Quest definitely was an afterthought to the original game. While it is just a "harder" version, it definitely is something that you would need prior knowledge for.

[Xbob42]

True, but you'd still need that same knowledge to enter the Shadow Temple in the normal version.

[Nokt]

20 minutes ago, Xbob42 said:

True, but you'd still need that same knowledge to enter the Shadow Temple in the normal version.

Guess I forgot that you needed Din's Fire to get into the Shadow Temple.

Its been a number of years since I've played. I think I watched my brother how to get it when I was younger before my first playthrough, it just ended up being something I always grabbed.

Makes sense to be frustrated then.

[Bloodporne]

1 hour ago, Xbob42 said:

Nah. He's like me. That just... breaks everything. It makes the game feel like it can't stand on its own, like it's unfinished. It kills the momentum and just irritates the shit out of you. I hate when I feel like I have to use a guide. There's nothing hard about it, it's just obtuse.

While some people are happy to play a game guide-in-hand (and that's totally fine!) I think people like us just hate it.

That is exactly it. I can't even summon help in Souls games...I HAVE to do it myself on the first go in every game, no matter how hard.

 

The main issue is that I'd never know when I'm in a situation where I simply don't have the item either. You won't know if it's a Master Quest special fucking you up or you simply had to think a bit harder.

 

I've never once played a game with a guide, it defeats the purpose of playing for me personally.

 

Having to look up something is like the ultimate game over for me haha. Just ultimate defeat.

[Bloodporne]

1 hour ago, Nokt said:

Yeah, but Master Quest definitely was an afterthought to the original game. While it is just a "harder" version, it definitely is something that you would need prior knowledge for.

I read up on it prior and was reassured it was fine without prior knowledge and clearly that wasn't the case unfortunately.

[best3444]

I'm an idiot in this game. Usually I dislike using guides too, but I want to finish this game in a reasonable time. 

[Biggie]

21 minutes ago, best3444 said:

I'm an idiot in this game. Usually I dislike using guides too, but I want to finish this game in a reasonable time. 

Google and YouTube. 

[TheLeon]

21 minutes ago, Biggie said:

Google and YouTube. 

This is helpful. I'm sure that best was simply referring to hard copy Prima strategy guides, and was unaware that similar help could be found on the internet. 

[Bloodporne]

1 hour ago, best3444 said:

I'm an idiot in this game. Usually I dislike using guides too, but I want to finish this game in a reasonable time. 

I was actually doing really well and the puzzles were difficult but just right to be really satisfying. Until I hit the areas I described. Anyway I'm giving it a month's break or so and I'll just power through the opening in base OoT again so I can continue.

 

This game is definitely magic and fantastic so I'll deal with it.

[best3444]

3 hours ago, Biggie said:

Google and YouTube. 

 

I have IGNs guide bookmarked. 

[Nokt]

3 hours ago, Biggie said:

Google and YouTube. 

 

23 minutes ago, best3444 said:

 

I have IGNs guide bookmarked. 

You're both crazy. Gamefaqs for life.

[Paperclyp]

I was actually gonna mention that the master quest wasn’t just a simple difficulty increase earlier in the thread, but people were speaking about it so confidently that I thought maybe I was misremembering lol. 

[crispy4000]

MQ’s puzzles are totally fair IMO.  It will force you to use everything, but I love that about it too.  Too often Zelda games just focus on one puzzle item, or ignore what else you can discover on the overworld.  It’s not quite as hard as Zelda 1’s new game +, which is kind of stupid with its liberal uses of fake walls.  

 

But the only truly unfair puzzle I can ever remember in a Zelda game was burning that stupid overworld bush in the original.  It’s esoteric as some point & click games get.

[crispy4000]

On 12/30/2018 at 7:51 AM, Bloodporne said:

I was actually doing really well and the puzzles were difficult but just right to be really satisfying. Until I hit the areas I described. Anyway I'm giving it a month's break or so and I'll just power through the opening in base OoT again so I can continue.

 

This game is definitely magic and fantastic so I'll deal with it.

 

I don’t think you hit an irreparable roadblock.  As others have said, you’d need Din’s Fire for the Shadow Temple anyways and could have quit on the base game there in the same way.

 

For that reason, it’d be better just to keep on going where you are when you come back to it.

 

[Bloodporne]

32 minutes ago, crispy4000 said:

MQ’s puzzles are totally fair IMO.  It will force you to use everything, but I love that about it too.  Too often Zelda games just focus on one puzzle item, or ignore what else you can discover on the overworld.  It’s not quite as hard as Zelda 1’s new game +, which is kind of stupid with its liberal uses of fake walls.  

 

But the only truly unfair puzzle I can ever remember in a Zelda game was burning that stupid overworld bush in the original.  It’s esoteric as some point & click games get.

Nah the problem is it requires knowledge of potential items/songs etc. that I don't eve know exist to begin with and I'd never know if I were to hit that spot or if it's just hard until I looked it up.

 

That's my real issue. The second example was a scarecrow song in the Fire Temple to beat a room. There's no indication to use it there to even suggest 'hey you need that it's up to you to find' so it's quite literally impossible with previous knowledge unless I leave the temple and scour every corner of the world for every item and try it all again every time something like that happens.

 

I'm not saying it sucks or anything, it just clearly implies you should be familiar with OoT, that's all.

[TheLeon]

I'm in the Water Temple now, and I've realized that I can't always play this game like I do most DS games - for 10-15 minutes before I go to bed. I've got to set aside some time to really tackle these dungeons in one go. I get lost and confused real easily when I come back to the middle of one and it's been a day or two since I played. 

[best3444]

Just beat the water temple last night.