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thewhyteboar

Baseball The Mariners

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Hanging breaking balls down the pipe get smoked? Obviously not happening without sign stealing!

 

Also, looks like Alex Cora might have taken the Astros approach to sign stealing to Fenway...

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12 minutes ago, sblfilms said:

Hanging breaking balls down the pipe get smoked? Obviously not happening without sign stealing!

 

Also, looks like Alex Cora might have taken the Astros approach to sign stealing to Fenway...

 

I mean they're both amazing hitters even without the cheating, so they both might have still homered on those pitches. That's not the point though 

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5 minutes ago, Jose said:

 

I mean they're both amazing hitters even without the cheating, so they both might have still homered on those pitches. That's not the point though 

His point is they homered on 0-2 counts...it completely ignores the location of the pitch. It would be more telling of the advantage gained if they held up on a breaking ball that started in the zone and dropped out as a ball on an 0-2 pitch.

 

It’s a poor example of how sign stealing helps batters.

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I just meant that if the cheating in this instance helped Bregman or Springer is irrelevant, at least to me. It's still two clearly captured instances of cheating. Nobody knew the pitches were going to be right down the middle.

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5 minutes ago, Jose said:

I just meant that if the cheating in this instance helped Bregman or Springer is irrelevant, at least to me. It's still two clearly captured instances of cheating. Nobody knew the pitches were going to be right down the middle.

Cheating is cheating because it gives an unfair advantage. Who isn’t swinging at a pitch in the middle of the plate on an 0-2 count? Showing pitchers making location mistakes in pitcher’s counts that then get taken yard would represent a thousand home runs every year.

 

The “plate discipline” of the Astros (and the 2018 Redsox) suggest a LOT of sign stealing and there are better examples of how it benefits batters than these dopey clips where a pitcher makes a mistake and top tier batters take advantage.

 

For example, there are a lot of instances I can think of off the top of my head where an Astros batter in a 2 strike count held up on a really good slider that seemed to me impossible to think was going to be a ball until the very end. Sure, sometimes you could do that by trusting your instincts, but to do it so regularly seems outside the lines of natural ability. And if they are using live camera feeds to steal signs, they should get hammered for it.

 

But I also don’t trust Pine Tar Fiers and his spurned-ex self, so we will see what MLB themselves find out.

 

 

This Jomboy video is hilarious, btw.

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I'm just saying we can't know if the hitters were helped or not in these instances. I've seen many elite hitters strike out on offspeed stuff down the middle because they were sitting fastball. Knowing for sure that a pitch will be offspeed is a game changer, even if the pitch was going to be down the middle regardless. Are there better instances out there? I'm sure there are. But that doesn't mean these aren't instances of cheating.

 

I dunno, let's wait for more info.

 

Edit: I will say if this is really a league wide problem, it will definitely be a shame if only the Astros get blamed. Seems like there is a chance they could get treated like a sacrificial lamb the way the Braves were a few years ago.

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15 minutes ago, Jose said:

I'm just saying we can't know if the hitters were helped or not in these instances.

Certainly, but the original posts aren’t saying that. They are saying “these dudes homered on 0-2 counts!” as though it’s a rarity to do so on off speed stuff left down the middle in counts where the batter is already primed to swing.

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4 hours ago, ManUtdRedDevils said:

If there was no benefit to it, then they wouldn’t do it. Astros are a smart, analytical organization. 

Correct. The examples you posted are just poor examples of how sign stealing helps because in both the hitter was in a plate protection count and the pitcher threw a breaking ball center zone...the sorts of balls that routinely end up in the seats for any good hitter.

 

The first video I linked to from Jomboy shows pretty conclusively with the barest of deductive reason that they were using video assist in their sign stealing, but there are much better examples of how sign stealing positively impacts ABs than the ones you linked to.

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2 minutes ago, Jose said:

Sign stealing doesn't have to have a positive impact for it to be cheating, though. 

If the thing you are doing doesn’t have a positive impact, it by definition isn’t cheating because you gained no ADVANTAGE through unfair means. Using electronic means to steal signs is cheating because it does give an unfair advantage over teams that only steal with their eyes due to a man on 2nd, which is permitted to all teams. You don’t even have to get into how sign stealing helps to show the unfair advantage of using electronic means to do so.

 

But, if you’re going to show how sign stealing helps batters you can’t pick dumb examples like mistake pitches getting hammered by top tier hitters  :p 

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Isn't knowing what pitch type is coming an unfair advantage though? Regardless of it ending up being a meatball. They didn't know it was going to be a meatball when they were banging down on the trash can.

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Sorry that I don't give up on this topic. I am bored at work haha. I guess I am arguing two things.

 

1. They sought to gain an advantage. If the advantage did not end up being necessary because the pitch was a meatball, great, but they did not know that when they stole the sign and banged on the trash can.

2. Even though the pitch was a meatball, knowing that it was offspeed and not a fastball might have given them the edge on those homeruns. It might not have because they are elite hitters, but it certainly might have! We will never know for sure if they were helped there.

 

 

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Ban the front office and AJ for life. Take away multiple draft picks. How to punish the players? It was so widespread within the organization I’m not sure how MLB handles it. 

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On 11/18/2019 at 8:44 PM, Amazatron said:

Of course it helps if you know an off speed pitch is coming, I don’t care if it’s the fattest hanging breaking ball ever.

Certainly. Hanging breaking balls also get yanked outta the yard *all the time*. My point is that Jomboy is making a link between the count and a homer being hit, but he ignores that they were mistake pitches. There are good examples and bad examples and those happen to be bad examples.

 

I would bet good money that 0-2 homers are hit on off-speed pitches up more than any other possible permutation of pitches.

 

On 11/20/2019 at 11:52 AM, rc0101 said:

Ban the front office and AJ for life. Take away multiple draft picks. How to punish the players? It was so widespread within the organization I’m not sure how MLB handles it. 

LOL. Lifetime bans are dumb. But they should probably get a year if the use of technology in the sign stealing is proven.

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4 minutes ago, rc0101 said:

It’s proven. Saying otherwise is a joke

How they did it isn’t proven. That’s literally why there is an investigation going on. There is good reason to believe they used cameras though due to the speed at which they were doing it.

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It’s only not proven to Astros fans honestly. They stole signs and did so in a way that broke MLB rules. It is what it is. With the speed and accuracy they aren’t stealing signs any other way than using technology. 
 

the investigation at this point is who all in the org knew about it and for how long did it happen. The “whistle” during the playoffs is the next to break and who knows what after that. 

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16 minutes ago, Jose said:

You do know other teams are being investigated, right?

Are you talking to me? When did I ever say otherwise or that they were the only one cheating. 
 

The Astros used technology to steal signs and relay it to players. It’s given. Did other teams do the same? Maybe. Rob Manfred has said there isn’t anything yet on other teams. 

 

10 minutes ago, sblfilms said:


You work in the MLB office, I see :p

I know your an Astros fan so I get that it sucks your team cheated it’s way to a World Series win. 

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Baseball writers banned steroid users from the Hall of Fame for “cheating”. It will be interesting to see if a similar stance is taking here or if it is considered to be acceptable cheating like pine tar. Baseball is a dumb sport. 

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1 hour ago, rc0101 said:

I know your an Astros fan so I get that it sucks your team cheated it’s way to a World Series win. 

I don’t care if they cheated, if they did they will get penalized. But you are incorrect to say how they cheated has been proven. It’s more likely than not that they used technology to steal signs because of the speed at which they did it, but there has been no proof shown. Please don’t serve on a jury!

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48 minutes ago, ManUtdRedDevils said:

Baseball writers banned steroid users from the Hall of Fame for “cheating”. It will be interesting to see if a similar stance is taking here or if it is considered to be acceptable cheating like pine tar. Baseball is a dumb sport. 

 

Yeah, the lifetime ban they gave to John Coppolella was absurd, so who knows what happens here.

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17 minutes ago, sblfilms said:

I don’t care if they cheated, if they did they will get penalized. But you are incorrect to say how they cheated has been proven. It’s more likely than not that they used technology to steal signs because of the speed at which they did it, but there has been no proof shown. Please don’t serve on a jury!

Cheaters and their sympathizers! 
 

They cheated time to move on and accept it! 

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Yeah, nobody has ever been accused of a crime they didn’t actually commit. We shouldn’t have thorough investigations to find out what actually happen, some accusations from a jilted ex-player and YouTube sleuthing is enough to give out lifetime bans to people :lol:

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6 minutes ago, rc0101 said:

Keep holding out hope and defending a misogynistic cheating organization! :twothumbsup:

I haven’t defended anything, but this response explains a lot.

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