Television Who needs the Qwik-E-Mart?

[SimpleG]

54 minutes ago, Greatoneshere said:

Apu is offensive, and comparing him to other "stereotypes" on the show is not analagous because many of the other stereotypes are not a minority and the bigger issue everyone seems to be ignoring isn't that there aren't real life Indian Americans who have thick accents, it's that Apu is voiced by a white guy doing an aggressive Indian-accented English.

 

This is the equivalent of a white dude putting on black face. I would have had no problem if they just replaced Azaria with an Indian American voice actor, and then phase out the accent. It's strange to me that people think the issue is that the Simpsons have a stereotyped minority character rather than the fact it's a white guy voicing him. That's the bigger problem

I agree with all of this

 

55 minutes ago, Greatoneshere said:

I'm not a fan of censoring humor but there are red lines and this is one of them

I gotta disagree with all of this.

 

59 minutes ago, Greatoneshere said:

Indian Americans don't like Apu, and we should defer to them on this issue. Do all Indian Americans have a problem with him? No, but enough do that what's the harm in being more culturally sensitive for them?

Because there is a simpler solution , just dont watch it if it offends you. I fuckin hate slippery slope arguments but it feels like thats were headed, if some one wants to watch Apu,fuck it let em,and if I wanna go to the Mapplethorpe exhibit I should have to worry thats gonna disappear because it offends some one. 

 

Just as aside I am not directly comparing Apu to the Mapplethorpe collection

[Greatoneshere]

5 minutes ago, SimpleG said:

Because there is a simpler solution , just dont watch it if it offends you. I fuckin hate slippery slope arguments but it feels like thats were headed, if some one wants to watch Apu,fuck it let em,and if I wanna go to the Mapplethorpe exhibit I should have to worry thats gonna disappear because it offends some one. 

 

But there's an insidiousness to the humor with Apu, that's the difference. Of course a person can elect to simply not watch something and ignore it rather than making the thing you can ignore change for you, but we have a moral responsibility to make sure things aren't at least insidious. A lot of humor is meant to offend (Doug Stanhope is one of my favorite stand-up comedians) but there is a difference between humor and derision and derision isn't a good thing and should not be allowed, especially when that rhetoric is perpetuated by the ignorant people watching the show that don't even know the difference. Does that make more sense?

 

There's a difference between offending some random person and a systemic problem where the "humor" you are enjoying reinforces and perpetuates the systemic problem. 

[ort]

One of the main points raised in the doc was that during the late 80s and 90s when the Simpsons was at it's prime, Apu was literally the only prominent Indian character in pretty much the entire world of television and movies. He was on one of the most popular TV shows of all time and was an over the top stereotype. So if you were an Indian person in America, almost every conversation or interaction with anyone would involve people saying Apu lines at you. Every single person you meet saying "Thank You, Come Again!" in a terrible accent drives you a little nuts after a decade or two.

[SimpleG]

3 minutes ago, Greatoneshere said:

But there's an insidiousness to the humor with Apu, that's the difference. Of course a person can elect to simply not watch something and ignore it rather than making the thing you can ignore change for you, but we have a moral responsibility to make sure things aren't at least insidious.

I understand fully what people are trying to and I know they mean well but I can see the other side of the coin. I dont like it when the upright moral brigade decides  what is and isnt morally right for everyone .For now the ball is on the Left side of the court when come it comes to moral outrage( I dont mean that in a disrespectful way ) and we have seen what happens when the Right has control and I dont want another Jesse Helms deciding whats moral.

 

I believe we have as much moral responsibility to make sure Apu is as least racist as possible as a Church Pastor as has the moral responsibility to make sure a gay night club doesnt open up the community. Its exactly none.

[SimpleG]

5 minutes ago, ort said:

So if you were an Indian person in America, almost every conversation or interaction with anyone would involve people saying Apu lines at you. Every single person you meet saying "Thank You, Come Again!" in a terrible accent drives you a little nuts after a decade or two.

It kinda weird how some racism is completely overlooked in america. I can remember when some one called me Oriental to my wife a few years back,I thought she was gonna go nuclear. Oddly enough it doesnt really bother me that much. I think SE Asians and Asians in general get a lot of under the table racism thats over looked.

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

In 2018, this character is effectively the same "low-hanging fruit" humor as the drunk Irishman or the lazy Mexican.  It's been done to death and is no longer funny or relevant.

[Bloodporne]

As a person with an accent, I fucking hate 'accent humor' and mostly so because they're always cringeworthily off-base for some uneducated dolt to chuckle at. 

 

That being said, deleting the character and/or changing him fundamentally seems ridiculous to me. Simply hiring an actual Indian voice actor should've easily done the trick. The Simpsons is a microcosm of stereotypes and that shouldn't be the issue. I haven't read anything about this prior personally but I would think simply not having a non-Indian guy sound like a horribly grating mockery to every Indian viewer would do the trick, no?

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

47 minutes ago, Bloodporne said:

As a person with an accent, I fucking hate 'accent humor' and mostly so because they're always cringeworthily off-base for some uneducated dolt to chuckle at. 

 

That being said, deleting the character and/or changing him fundamentally seems ridiculous to me. Simply hiring an actual Indian voice actor should've easily done the trick. The Simpsons is a microcosm of stereotypes and that shouldn't be the issue. I haven't read anything about this prior personally but I would think simply not having a non-Indian guy sound like a horribly grating mockery to every Indian viewer would do the trick, no?

There are quite a few ways that the character could've been updated for 2018 that would've remained true to the show's themes and not relied on an outdated racial stereotype.

 

Like I said, perhaps the greatest fault is that it's just not funny anymore because it's tired in the same way as the stumble-down drunk Irish paddy ain't exactly bring the yucks either.

[SimpleG]

23 minutes ago, darkness35 said:

 

 

tl;dr I like my shitty stereotyped jokes and I fucking hate people who are affected by this joke that are offended for the right reasons.

Never once did I even elude that the joke was ok.

Ill explain it once more for the cheap seats.

By letting anyone on the Left decide what is and isnt moral gives anyone on the Right the option to decide what is and isnt moral. That to me is more terrifying then some shity racial joke that can be ignored by simply changing the channel. Using moral justification to remove things we disagree with isnt a stick to be swung like a weapon , its an A bomb where both sides have the arming codes, and its race to see who can enter it first.

[CitizenVectron]

2 hours ago, SimpleG said:

I agree with all of this

 

I gotta disagree with all of this.

 

Because there is a simpler solution , just dont watch it if it offends you. I fuckin hate slippery slope arguments but it feels like thats were headed, if some one wants to watch Apu,fuck it let em,and if I wanna go to the Mapplethorpe exhibit I should have to worry thats gonna disappear because it offends some one. 

 

Just as aside I am not directly comparing Apu to the Mapplethorpe collection

 

3 minutes ago, SimpleG said:

Never once did I even elude that the joke was ok.

Ill explain it once more for the cheap seats.

By letting anyone on the Left decide what is and isnt moral gives anyone on the Right the option to decide what is and isnt moral. That to me is more terrifying then some shity racial joke that can be ignored by simply changing the channel. Using moral justification to remove things we disagree with isnt a stick to be swung like a weapon , its an A bomb where both sides have the arming codes, and its race to see who can enter it first.

 

It's not "the left" that is causing this, it's actual Indian people that don't like it, and others have repeated their feelings. Also, your simpler solution (of not watching it) is exactly what this move is trying to avoid. Fox isn't making this change because they care about feelings, they are doing it because they know that people will stop watching if they don't. It's straight market-driven decision-making. No one is deciding for anyone else what Fox can or should show. Fox is making this decision to prevent viewers from leaving, just like they would make other changes based on market pressure.

[darkness35]

It's not a left or right political spectrum bullshit that you are futilely framing it; it's removing stereotype that marginalizes a specific ethnic group that reinforces an ignorant stereotype.  Then again, I as a cheap-seater probably am expecting too much from a stale saltine who think they're high on a moral pedestal. 

 

It's why I even deleted the post because it wasn't even worth opening a can of bullshit. Fuck my Chinese ass once again for trying.

[darkness35]

2 minutes ago, CitizenVectron said:

 

 

It's not "the left" that is causing this, it's actual Indian people that don't like it, and others have repeated their feelings. Also, your simpler solution (of not watching it) is exactly what this move is trying to avoid. Fox isn't making this change because they care about feelings, they are doing it because they know that people will stop watching if they don't. It's straight market-driven decision-making. No one is deciding for anyone else what Fox can or should show. Fox is making this decision to prevent viewers from leaving, just like they would make other changes based on market pressure.

 

Pretty much this, and FOX is just going to keep this undead show alive.

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

4 minutes ago, darkness35 said:

 

Pretty much this, and FOX is just going to keep this undead show alive.

Which is something that we should all be criticizing them for in the first place.

[Jason]

14 hours ago, darkness35 said:

Oh fuck my Chinese ass

 

I guess now we have to write you off D1P.

[darkness35]

1 minute ago, Jason said:

 

I guess now we have to write you off D1P.

 

Out of the D1P island

[Bloodporne]

29 minutes ago, SFLUFAN said:

There are quite a few ways that the character could've been updated for 2018 that would've remained true to the show's themes and not relied on an outdated racial stereotype.

 

Like I said, perhaps the greatest fault is that it's just not funny anymore because it's tired in the same way as the stumble-down drunk Irish paddy ain't exactly bring the yucks either.

I mean, I'm sure they could've but the entire cast would need an overhaul for being a played-out-as-fuck riff on a 1980's at latest stereotype. I personally think the entire show is played out and stupid when I did see it in the last 20 years but I guess that's irrelevant int he context of this discussion. Or maybe not, I don't know, at the end of the day it's The Simpsons, just kill it already. 

 

I loved it early on, it was fresh and witty and funny. It's been beating dead jokes for what...98 seasons? 

[ort]

As a former Simpson's mega-fan, I actually don't think writing him out of the show is the right solution.

 

He actually grew into more of a nuanced character as the show went on. That said, they had to do something. Changing the voice actor was probably the right call, but the voice is so much of who he is, that would also be hard.

 

Honestly, they should just throw in the towel and end the show. It's done. Not because of this, but because, come on... it's been on for like 30 years now. If the characters aged, bart would currently be a 40 year old man. Let's move on.

[darkness35]

1 minute ago, ort said:

As a former Simpson's mega-fan, I actually don't think writing him out of the show is the right solution.

 

He actually grew into more of a nuanced character as the show went on. That said, they had to do something. Changing the voice actor was probably the right call, but the voice is so much of who he is, that would also be hard.

 

Honestly, they should just throw in the towel and end the show. It's done. Not because of this, but because, come on... it's been on for like 30 years now. If the characters aged, bart would currently be a 40 year old man. Let's move on.

The Qwik-E-Mart becomes a gentrified coffee shop for one episode and then out of backlash returns as a Qwik-E-Mart because Fox found how to fix Apu's overall inclusion.

 

We family guy now.

[Kal-El814]

I worked with a Pakistani dude LAST YEAR who regularly ended work conversations with “thank you, come again,” because enough people in an an office setting said it to him that he figured he’d just get it out of the way.

 

”But Homer is ALSO a stereotype,” misses the point by a country mile. 

[SimpleG]

1 hour ago, CitizenVectron said:

 

 

It's not "the left" that is causing this, it's actual Indian people that don't like it, and others have repeated their feelings. Also, your simpler solution (of not watching it) is exactly what this move is trying to avoid. Fox isn't making this change because they care about feelings, they are doing it because they know that people will stop watching if they don't. It's straight market-driven decision-making. No one is deciding for anyone else what Fox can or should show. Fox is making this decision to prevent viewers from leaving, just like they would make other changes based on market pressure.

Ill happily concede the left/right portion of my argument,honestly it was just used as example of why I dont like the moral idea as frame work to remove Apu stereotypes.

1 hour ago, darkness35 said:

It's not a left or right political spectrum bullshit that you are futilely framing it; it's removing stereotype that marginalizes a specific ethnic group that reinforces an ignorant stereotype.  Then again, I as a cheap-seater probably am expecting too much from a stale saltine who think they're high on a moral pedestal. 

 

It's why I even deleted the post because it wasn't even worth opening a can of bullshit. Fuck my Chinese ass once again for trying.

I ll have to remind my Korean parents of their new born white son.

Edit:

On a side note it is entirely possible to have a civil conversation /debate without getting up in arms or bringing up my race in to it,considering I did nothing to antagonize you. I assume you understand the cheap seater comment wasnt a dig,it was to just to clarify my position. 

[GeneticBlueprint]

So he's getting the Poochie-D treatment?

[DarkStar189]

4 hours ago, Greatoneshere said:

Wow, a lot of ignorant posts (and some good ones!) in this thread.

 

Apu is offensive, and comparing him to other "stereotypes" on the show is not analagous because many of the other stereotypes are not a minority and the bigger issue everyone seems to be ignoring isn't that there aren't real life Indian Americans who have thick accents, it's that Apu is voiced by a white guy doing an aggressive Indian-accented English.

 

This is the equivalent of a white dude putting on black face. I would have had no problem if they just replaced Azaria with an Indian American voice actor, and then phase out the accent. It's strange to me that people think the issue is that the Simpsons have a stereotyped minority character rather than the fact it's a white guy voicing him.

I don't think a persons skin color should matter when it comes to the character they are playing. They are playing a character. It's only racist if they are being racist. The black character Cleveland from Family Guy is voiced by a white guy. Dave Chappelle does a really good white guy voice in some of his skits. It shouldn't be looked down upon if a white kid wants to dress up like Miguel from Coco and have an accent to go along with it.  Robert Downey Jr went full black in Tropic Thunder and got an Oscar nomination for it. Granted some of these examples are probably 10 years old now. 

[SimpleG]

7 minutes ago, GeneticBlueprint said:

So he's getting the Poochie-D treatment?

[SimpleG]

1 minute ago, DarkStar189 said:

They are playing a character. It's only racist if they are being racist

Thats the problem that people have , the voice alone is very stereotypical and pretty racist. 

[SimpleG]

4 minutes ago, DarkStar189 said:

Robert Downey Jr went full black in Tropic Thunder and got an Oscar nomination for it.

If he had done some jive talking or yes'a sir, yes'a sir he would got eaten alive by critics,Apu"s voice is at that level.

[DarkStar189]

2 hours ago, SimpleG said:

Thats the problem that people have , the voice alone is very stereotypical and pretty racist. 

I believe you, it's just been way too long for me to remember much of Apu other than "thank you come again!".  

You guys probably won't believe me when I tell you about the guy who works at the gas station right by my house. He's probably mid 30's. He's a fun, energetic, middle eastern looking/sounding guy. When you go in the store sometimes he will greet you. If not, he will when you get to the counter. The first sentence out of his mouth is always:  "America!..... America is beautiful my friend!".  Sometimes that will be it. Other times he might go on with a few more lines about "this great country". He has been there at least 4 or 5 years and he says it to me every time as well as every other customer. It's always made me think of Apu I guess because it's like my local gas station convenience store with a clerk that has a catchphrase. 

 

[SimpleG]

3 minutes ago, DarkStar189 said:

I believe you, it's just been way too long for me to remember much of Apu other than "thank you come again!".  

Its a weird chicken/egg thing with this. As @Spork3245 kinda mentioned,when you think about Indian stereotype you think of Apu. I honestly cant remember if the Simpson created this stereotype or just popularized.

[darkness35]

2 hours ago, SimpleG said:

I ll have to remind my Korean parents of their new born white son.

Edit:

On a side note it is entirely possible to have a civil conversation /debate without getting up in arms or bringing up my race in to it,considering I did nothing to antagonize you. I assume you understand the cheap seater comment wasnt a dig,it was to just to clarify my position. 

Nope, I didn't, and I'm sure your position was more of a politicized rhetoric to explain why you can't relate nor care about ethnic groups marginalized.  I wish people didn't claim they try to see the other side of the coin, but then label stances as a binary black/white left-wing/right-wing

[HGLatinBoy]

6 hours ago, Greatoneshere said:

Wow, a lot of ignorant posts (and some good ones!) in this thread.

 

Apu is offensive, and comparing him to other "stereotypes" on the show is not analagous because many of the other stereotypes are not a minority and the bigger issue everyone seems to be ignoring isn't that there aren't real life Indian Americans who have thick accents, it's that Apu is voiced by a white guy doing an aggressive Indian-accented English.

 

This is the equivalent of a white dude putting on black face. I would have had no problem if they just replaced Azaria with an Indian American voice actor, and then phase out the accent. It's strange to me that people think the issue is that the Simpsons have a stereotyped minority character rather than the fact it's a white guy voicing him. That's the bigger problem.  I'm not a fan of censoring humor but there are red lines and this is one of them. Indian Americans don't like Apu, and we should defer to them on this issue. Do all Indian Americans have a problem with him? No, but enough do that what's the harm in being more culturally sensitive for them?

I mean how white is Hank Azaria? he's also voices Carl the black guy that works for homer I guess he has to stop doing that too. I'm not opposed to changing the actor if it helps the situation but really its the accent that needs to change and what Apu does and what he means for the show. I'm not a fan of changing around voice actors just because of their race either. It would make it so only people of certain races could play certain roles and not be about their voice range or talent. 

 

check out the character Gorrik in this video at 2:57 and guess the race of the actor. 

 

[SimpleG]

Just now, darkness35 said:

Nope, I didn't, and I'm sure your position was more of a politicized rhetoric to explain why you can't relate nor care about ethnic groups marginalized.  I wish people didn't claim they try to see the other side of the coin, but then label stances as a binary black/white left-wing/right-wing

Like I said the left/right portion of the discussion was a failure on my part.My apologies

[SimpleG]

1 minute ago, HGLatinBoy said:

I mean how white is Hank Azaria? he's also voices Carl the black guy that works for homer I guess he has to stop doing that too. I'm not opposed to changing the actor if it helps the situation but really its the accent that needs to change and what Apu does and what he means for the show. I'm not a fan of changing around voice actors just because of their race either. It would make it so only people of certain races could play certain roles and not be about their voice range or talent. 

 

check out the character Gorrik in this video at 2:57 and guess the race of the actor. 

 

Except Carls voice isnt some over the top "black voice"

[HGLatinBoy]

Well that's the point isn't it? They can tone it down. 
 

[darkness35]

4 minutes ago, SimpleG said:

Like I said the left/right portion of the discussion was a failure on my part.My apologies

Noted.

 

23 minutes ago, SimpleG said:

Its a weird chicken/egg thing with this. As @Spork3245 kinda mentioned,when you think about Indian stereotype you think of Apu. I honestly cant remember if the Simpson created this stereotype or just popularized.

To be honest, they did develop him more, in which he didn't want to be in an arranged marriage, and supported Lisa's vegetarian/vegan thing.  I also haven't watched Simpsons a while ago other than the movie that came out about a decade ago.  However, seeing the convenience store stereotype by changing the sell-by date is pretty offensive (I actually believed this stereotype a while ago...)

 

To address the matter of which came first, the Simpsons always has used culture reference with their script/gags, so I'd like to say the popularization of the stereotype came first.. I think the Simpson just became an evolution of documented stereotypes of that era?

 

Edit: Slight mention, I'm tired asf from field placement so I'm probably going to check other post later when I have mental/physical energy to do so. 

[SimpleG]

9 minutes ago, HGLatinBoy said:

Well that's the point isn't it? They can tone it down. 
 

Toning it down could work but how much is enough? If they are trying to make folks happy the easiest way is just get an indian american actor/actress to to do the voice. 

[HGLatinBoy]

24 minutes ago, SimpleG said:

Toning it down could work but how much is enough? If they are trying to make folks happy the easiest way is just get an indian american actor/actress to to do the voice. 

or an asian or a black actor