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41 minutes ago, CitizenVectron said:

Say what you want, but these DSA candidates have good media teams:

 

 

She's a Justice Democrat so The Young Turks might have made that video. 

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https://fivethirtyeight.com/live-blog/june-26-election-results/

 

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Can progressive Democrats notch another win against the national party? / Will incumbent Democrats get a scare? A definite yes. If you are a progressive Democrat, tonight was the most satisfying night of 2018 so far. In the upset of the year, Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez emphatically defeated Rep. Joe Crowley, the No. 4 Democrat in the U.S. House, in New York’s 14th Congressional District, 58 percent to 42 percent. Two other New York City incumbents, Yvette Clarke and Carolyn Maloney, just barely escaped with wins. Bernie Sanders-endorsed Ben Jealous also triumphed in the Democratic primary for Maryland governor, 40 percent to 29 percent, over his establishment-backed opponent. And in New York’s 24th District, Dana Balter defeated the DCCC’s hand-picked candidate, Juanita Perez Williams. However, don’t run off cherry-picking these results. Establishment Democrats have still won far more primaries overall on the year, and they even defeated progressives in a few high-profile races tonight: in Colorado’s 6th District and Colorado’s 1st District, for example.

 

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https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-44625617

 

Love the BBC headline:

 

Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez: Millennial beats veteran Democrat

 

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Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, 28, defeated political veteran Joe Crowley, 56, on Tuesday night in their party's congressional primary in New York City.

Ms Ocasio-Cortez, a former Bernie Sanders volunteer from a Puerto Rican family, won with a 57.5% majority.

 

Quote

If she wins, she will become the youngest ever woman elected to Congress.

 

 

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8 hours ago, Massdriver said:

This country needs more social insurance. This country doesn’t need any actual socialism. The organization referred to is not just about supporting social democracy. It is a big tent socialist organization that wants popular control of resources and production. This isn’t the Nordic model we are talking about anymore. It is not evidence based policy and would turn us into  a much bigger shithole than we already are.  

The working class controlling resources and using them for the best interest of the general population rather than a small group of rent seeking elites controlling almost all of the resources? The horror. In all seriousness, the DSA is about incrementalism so you can hold off on getting your panties all twisted up in fear of a dictatorship of the proletariat for at least the next few decades.

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SCOTUS rules against labor every chance they get:  no problem

 

DSA member will be elected to Congress:  everyone panic

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11 hours ago, b_m_b_m_b_m said:

90+% of DSA members are talking more along the lines of the Nordic model, greater help for the poor, Medicare for all, and much more highly subsidized higher education. Don't be a pedant

The Nordic model strongly values the market economy and free trade. They are high up on the economic freedom indexes in spite of their high taxes and social insurance policies. I looked at Alexandria’s issues page and she supports a federal job guarantee which would distort the market economy with completely uncertain results. There isn’t a single business friendly policy on her page and I didn’t see anything about free trade. I am open to correction. Maybe she supports the ease of doing business and I don’t know about it, but usually it seems like Sanders affiliated social democrats point to the Nordic countries and completely ignore that they have embraced many aspects of a market economy and only focus on the safety net. 

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9 minutes ago, Massdriver said:

The Nordic model strongly values the market economy and free trade. They are high up on the economic freedom indexes in spite of their high taxes and social insurance policies. I looked at Alexandria’s issues page and she supports a federal job guarantee which would distort the market economy with completely uncertain results. There isn’t a single business friendly policy on her page and I didn’t see anything about free trade. I am open to correction. Maybe she supports the ease of doing business and I don’t know about it, but usually it seems like Sanders affiliated social democrats point to the Nordic countries and completely ignore that they have embraced many aspects of a market economy and only focus on the safety net. 

 

And yet, still better than all other candidates that were presented, so what's it matter? It's an incredibly positive change compared to what we've gotten for decades. Not just in terms of policy, but personality and behavior and ethics and morals. You can't just ignore those wins. 

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11 hours ago, b_m_b_m_b_m said:

90+% of DSA members are talking more along the lines of the Nordic model, greater help for the poor, Medicare for all, and much more highly subsidized higher education. Don't be a pedant

From a marketing perspective, however, I don't think adopting the 'socialist' moniker helps the (American social democratic) Left, or any other group in American politics really.

 

By using the label of 'socialism', they allow their critics to invoke Mao, Stalin, Chavez and Venezuela, etc.  Basically the totalitarianism of the state-run command economy.

 

I think they would be better off selling their program as a more 'humane' form of capitalism, or--better yet--reclaim the term 'Free Market'.  After all, when Adam Smith and the classical economists talked about 'free markets' they meant markets free from the rentier class--markets in which prices would be brought in line with the actual cost of production, rather than artifically inflated by the parasitic, unproductive costs of interest on predatory lending, monopoly rent and land rent.

 

Since the right has largely become the defenders of the rentier class, and perverted the term 'Free Market' to mean a market free for rent extraction and stacked against labor and industry, the (American social democratic) left has room to bring the term back to its original sense and use it as a marketing tool.

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5 minutes ago, Greatoneshere said:

 

And yet, still better than all other candidates that were presented, so what's it matter? It's an incredibly positive change compared to what we've gotten for decades. Not just in terms of policy, but personality and behavior and ethics and morals. You can't just ignore those wins. 

I’m not ignoring the wins on the populist right or the populist left. They’re both a terrible change in policy and incredibly disturbing trends. I’ll take a center left, third way Democrat over this new radical Sanders wing any day. If you up the minimum wage this much, at least plug it into a formula for regional differences in median wages and cost of living. We are talking about radical policies that would hurt everyone. Sorry I’m not on board with Trump OR Sanders. I despise them both. 

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1 minute ago, Massdriver said:

I’m not ignoring the wins on the populist right or the populist left. They’re both a terrible change in policy and incredibly disturbing trends. I’ll take a center left, third way Democrat over this new radical Sanders wing any day. If you up the minimum wage this much, at least plug it into a formula for regional differences in median wages and cost of living. We are talking about radical policies that would hurt everyone. Sorry I’m not on board with Trump OR Sanders. I despise them both. 

 

I think that's incredibly alarmist, and inaccurate to DSA's or even Sanders' policies. I'm not for the "populist" left, I'm for change from what we've had for decades, and I want that change in a left direction than a right one. No, I don't want a centrist, because that's what we've had for ages and it hasn't worked, because it led us to Trump. So no, I'm for humane, free market capitalism and that, I think, is what we'd ultimately get with people like this. 

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10 minutes ago, Signifyin(g)Monkey said:

From a marketing perspective, however, I don't think adopting the 'socialist' moniker helps the (American social democratic) Left, or any other group in American politics really.

 

By using the label of 'socialism', they allow their critics to invoke Mao, Stalin, Chavez and Venezuela, etc.  Basically the totalitarianism of the state-run command economy.

 

I think they would be better off selling their program as a more 'humane' form of capitalism, or--better yet--reclaim the term 'Free Market'.  After all, when Adam Smith and the classical economists talked about 'free markets' they meant markets free from the rentier class--markets in which prices would be brought in line with the actual cost of production, rather than artifically inflated by the parasitic, unproductive costs of interest on predatory lending, monopoly rent and land rent.

 

Since the right has largely become the defenders of the rentier class, and perverted the term 'Free Market' to mean a market free for rent extraction and stacked against labor and industry, the (American social democratic) left has room to bring the term back to its original sense and use it as a marketing tool.

But look around. Not all, but some of the supporters are revising history and are gladly associating themselves with the above mentioned names and governments. There is a growing movement that isn’t just for social democracy, but wants to destroy the market economy. 

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Just now, Greatoneshere said:

 

I think that's incredibly alarmist, and inaccurate to DSA's or even Sanders' policies. I'm not for the "populist" left, I'm for change from what we've had for decades, and I want that change in a left direction than a right one. No, I don't want a centrist, because that's what we've had for ages and it hasn't worked, because it led us to Trump. So no, I'm for humane, free market capitalism and that, I think, is what we'd ultimately get with people like this. 

No it’s not alarmist. DSA:

 

“We are socialists because we reject an economic order based on private profit, alienated labor, gross inequalities of wealth and power, discrimination based on race, sex, sexual orientation, gender expression, disability status, age, religion, and national origin, and brutality and violence in defense of the status quo. We are socialists because we share a vision of a humane social order based on popular control of resources and production, economic planning, equitable distribution, feminism, racial equality and non-oppressive relationships. We are socialists because we are developing a concrete strategy for achieving that vision, for building a majority movement that will make democratic socialism a reality in America. We believe that such a strategy must acknowledge the class structure of American society and that this class structure means that there is a basic conflict of interest between those sectors with enormous economic power and the vast majority of the population.[104]”

 

Marx couldn’t have said it better himself. This isn’t Obama’s socialism. This is actually Marxism. 

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25 minutes ago, Massdriver said:

The Nordic model strongly values the market economy and free trade. They are high up on the economic freedom indexes in spite of their high taxes and social insurance policies. I looked at Alexandria’s issues page and she supports a federal job guarantee which would distort the market economy with completely uncertain results. There isn’t a single business friendly policy on her page and I didn’t see anything about free trade. I am open to correction. Maybe she supports the ease of doing business and I don’t know about it, but usually it seems like Sanders affiliated social democrats point to the Nordic countries and completely ignore that they have embraced many aspects of a market economy and only focus on the safety net. 

 

I like the level in which Massdriver gives a diverging economical opinion. People like jigs/heyyou could never do that, which is why I've always appreciated him.

 

Question about the bold: are you suggesting she's to the left of your average politician in Nordic countries or other European nations? I haven't seen that yet.

 

Just now, RedSoxFan9 said:

Obama’s socialism is a good oxymoron 

 

I think that's what he means, though. His opinion is that this is actual Marxism, not the "socialism" Obama was accused of.

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@SaysWho?If she 100% reflects the DSA's principles, then she's to the left of what constitutes the CURRENT "average" European Social Democrat.

 

Note that I am using the qualifier of "current" because European Social Democrats have shifted rightward for the last 20 or so years.

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5 minutes ago, Jason said:

You can see her eyes trying to exit her head. :lol:

 

 

 

 

"Nope."

 

That first word. :lol: 

 

5 minutes ago, Jason said:

 

 

That goes into another conversation: the NRA is no longer a group feigning bi-partisanship by endorsing anti-gun control Democrats (to which they didn't endorse many even a decade ago). They're simply a right-wing organization, to which we saw at CPAC where LaPierre's speech talked about tons of issues unrelated to guns.

 

And yet due to that, it's become easy for Democrats to run not just for gun control but against the NRa.

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1 hour ago, Signifyin(g)Monkey said:

From a marketing perspective, however, I don't think adopting the 'socialist' moniker helps the (American social democratic) Left, or any other group in American politics really.

 

By using the label of 'socialism', they allow their critics to invoke Mao, Stalin, Chavez and Venezuela, etc.  Basically the totalitarianism of the state-run command economy.

 

I think they would be better off selling their program as a more 'humane' form of capitalism, or--better yet--reclaim the term 'Free Market'.  After all, when Adam Smith and the classical economists talked about 'free markets' they meant markets free from the rentier class--markets in which prices would be brought in line with the actual cost of production, rather than artifically inflated by the parasitic, unproductive costs of interest on predatory lending, monopoly rent and land rent.

 

Since the right has largely become the defenders of the rentier class, and perverted the term 'Free Market' to mean a market free for rent extraction and stacked against labor and industry, the (American social democratic) left has room to bring the term back to its original sense and use it as a marketing tool.

Playing no true Scotsman on the  term "free market" doesn't seem like a winner to me. Especially when the prevailing definition of free market is what we have now, and it's a fucking wreck. You'd be fighting an uphill battle from the start.

 

Stealing@Jason but

 

 

And sorry but most third way Democrats are shit. Incremental change is fine, but things are getting to the point in the cost of healthcare, housing, education, the climate and more than incremental change just isn't going to cut it. I don't want a government full of DSA members but we need more of them that's for damn sure. Like our own version of the Canadian NDP

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On the one hand, I generally agree that Democrats are just not great at branding. The GOP has just generally been far better at making their positions sound more friendly and has been better at making their preferred terms stick.

 

When it comes specifically to the DSA, I don't really have a big problem with using the word socialist. I think it's a fitting term, and while their platform is absolutely not Marxist, the people who will wrongly assume that they are probably aren't going to vote for them anyways. 

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2 minutes ago, TwinIon said:

On the one hand, I generally agree that Democrats are just not great at branding. The GOP has just generally been far better at making their positions sound more friendly and has been better at making their preferred terms stick.

 

When it comes specifically to the DSA, I don't really have a big problem with using the word socialist. I think it's a fitting term, and while their platform is absolutely not Marxist, the people who will wrongly assume that they are probably aren't going to vote for them anyways. 

 

A significant portion of the electorate think Pelosi is a Marxist. 

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28 minutes ago, TwinIon said:

On the one hand, I generally agree that Democrats are just not great at branding. The GOP has just generally been far better at making their positions sound more friendly and has been better at making their preferred terms stick.

 

When it comes specifically to the DSA, I don't really have a big problem with using the word socialist. I think it's a fitting term, and while their platform is absolutely not Marxist, the people who will wrongly assume that they are probably aren't going to vote for them anyways. 

They would at least do well to eliminate this provision of their mission statement:

 

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We are socialists because we reject an economic order based on private profit, alienated labor, gross inequalities of wealth and power, discrimination based on race, sex, sexual orientation, gender expression, disability status, age, religion, and national origin, and brutality and violence in defense of the status quo. 

 

...That sounds scary to moderate, non-Marxist social democrats. 

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59 minutes ago, Jason said:

 

A significant portion of the electorate think Pelosi is a Marxist. 

 

Yep.  Worrying about Republican criticism is dumb because it’s never going to be done in good faith.

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33 minutes ago, Signifyin(g)Monkey said:

They would at least do well to eliminate this provision of their mission statement:

 

 

...That sounds scary to moderate, non-Marxist social democrats. 

 

It seems they may have updated their mission statement from that draft:

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We are socialists because we reject an international economic order sustained by private profit, alienated labor, race and gender discrimination, environmental destruction, and brutality and violence in defense of the status quo.

We are socialists because we share a vision of a humane international social order based both on democratic planning and market mechanisms to achieve equitable distribution of resources, meaningful work, a healthy environment, sustainable growth, gender and racial equality, and non-oppressive relationships.

 

 

 

Make no mistake, in American politics in particular these guys are on the pretty far left, but from what I've seen of these Bernie Sanders type socialists is that they're not trying to put the state in control of everything . They're not trying to directly distribute the wealth of society or build towards any type of communist utopia. On their website they lay out their three primary goals as:

Quote

decrease the influence of money in politics

empower ordinary people in workplaces and the economy

restructure gender and cultural relationships to be more equitable.

Those are pretty general messages. The first two are talking points at Trump rallies. They obviously have very different visions of how to achieve those goals. Trump isn't going to run on a platform of weakening the power of corporations. And yes, anyone who talks about "restructuring society" is going to scare a few folks, but it's going to energize some people as well. You can't run a successful campaign avoiding making people on the other side uncomfortable.

 

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