~*Official Utterly Useless Old Woman, AOC, and UBI Thread*~

[Anathema-]

15 hours ago, SFLUFAN said:

The efforts of the pro-Israel lobbying groups and their Republican/Democratic/evangelical Christian allies have effectively controlled the narrative that ANY language used to decry their influence can be construed as falling into the "Protocols" stereotypes, no matter how innocuous.  There is simply no way around it, no matter how hard one tries.  Hell, if a Jewish individual makes the attempt, they're labeled as "self-hating".

 

I certainly don't see this kind of reaction when Republicans target their rhetoric against (((billionaires))).

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

3 hours ago, Anathema- said:

 

I certainly don't see this kind of reaction when Republicans target their rhetoric against (((billionaires))).

Exactly.

 

The (((Soros))) nonsense is explicitly "Protocols" garbage that is never addressed by AIPAC's political allies and the Christian Zionists.

[skillzdadirecta]

15 hours ago, b_m_b_m_b_m said:

Money in politics is the problem, regardless of whose money it is. 

That was my naive takeaway.

[Greatoneshere]

Does anyone in this thread really think that Ilhan Omar, a bleeding heart liberal progressive, hates Jews? Wants to nuke Israel? Does anyone really believe that of her?

 

C'mon now. She's not even being anti-Semitic. She's using language that certain people and groups want to say is anti-Semitic, and I'd like someone to show me how she should say the things she's said in a different way that, coming from her (a Muslim woman), would not still be called anti-Semitic from the same people and groups calling what she has already said anti-Semitic.

 

It's okay, I'll wait. 

 

I won't even get into the hypocrisy, yet again, of how Democrats are held to some unbelievable fucking standard of behavior but Republicans can do and say whatever they want without recourse or consequence for doing and saying much worse things. 

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, Greatoneshere said:

Does anyone in this thread really think that Ilhan Omar, a bleeding heart liberal progressive, hates Jews? Wants to nuke Israel? Does anyone really believe that of her?

 

If you believe the only Jewish state in the world should not exist, you probably hate Jews.

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

2 minutes ago, sblfilms said:

 

If you believe the only Jewish state in the world should not exist, you probably hate Jews.

What about believing that it should exist in a location other than where it is?

[Greatoneshere]

7 minutes ago, sblfilms said:

If you believe the only Jewish state in the world should not exist, you probably hate Jews.

 

I think it's not that clear cut, though I may be misunderstanding - I think she wants Palestine to exist, which Israel clearly doesn't. Wanting Palestine to exist as a real country of its own isn't saying you don't want Israel to exist (this would be the fabled two state solution). Additionally, disapproving of Israel's apartheid policies, etc. against Palestine and Palestinians is, again, not saying the same thing as saying you don't want Israel to exist, it's disapproving of Israel's government specifically, not the idea of Israel existing. Furthermore, wanting a country to be secular and having separation of church and state (or synagogue/temple and state in this case) is, again, not saying Israel shouldn't exist, it's just saying Israel probably shouldn't be a "Jewish" state - in the same way that I don't want any predominantly Muslim country to be an "Islamic" state.

 

I haven't read everything Ilhan Omar has said though - has she just come out and said she doesn't want Israel to exist in its current form, or not at all? Because those are two different things; one is fine, one is, arguably, anti-Semitic, I agree.

[mclumber1]

The Gaza strip should be absorbed into Egypt, and the West Bank brought into Jordan.  I'm not sure the Palestinian people are any more special that any other Arab group in the Middle East. 

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

1 minute ago, mclumber1 said:

The Gaza strip should be absorbed into Egypt, and the West Bank brought into Jordan.  I'm not sure the Palestinian people are any more special that any other Arab group in the Middle East. 

You're assuming that either Cairo or Amman wants that to begin with (hint: they really, REALLY don't!)

[b_m_b_m_b_m]

1 minute ago, SFLUFAN said:

You're assuming that either Cairo or Amman wants that to begin with (hint: they really, REALLY don't!)

Jordan especially so. They have how many millions of Syrian refugees right now anyway?

[mclumber1]

Just now, SFLUFAN said:

You're assuming that either Cairo or Amman wants that to begin with (hint: they really, REALLY don't!)

 

I know.  These areas are better off as agitators for the wider Arab world.  

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

2 minutes ago, b_m_b_m_b_m said:

Jordan especially so. They have how many millions of Syrian refugees right now anyway?

Jordan already has 2.1 million Palestinian refugees (out of a population of about 9.5 million) living there as a result of the 1948 and 1967 wars.  There are approximately 1.5 million Syrian refugees in Jordan.

[Greatoneshere]

10 minutes ago, mclumber1 said:

The Gaza strip should be absorbed into Egypt, and the West Bank brought into Jordan.  I'm not sure the Palestinian people are any more special that any other Arab group in the Middle East. 

 

Joke post? Asking honestly.

 

I know a few Palestinian ex-pats/refugees and they certainly don't want to become "Egyptians" or "Jordanians" (people, btw, who resent and hate Palestinians anyway and would treat them like second class citizens in their countries). I might be inclined to agree that it is too late for the Palestinian people to get their two state solution, and maybe those areas have to get absorbed, but the Palestinian people would then become like what the Jewish people once were - a people without a land to call home. 

 

The irony is palpable. 

[b_m_b_m_b_m]

Also to note: most American Jews are Democrats

 

Double also:

 

Seems reasonable

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

4 minutes ago, Greatoneshere said:

 

Joke post? Asking honestly.

 

I know a few Palestinian ex-pats/refugees and they certainly don't want to become "Egyptians" or "Jordanians" (people, btw, who resent and hate Palestinians anyway and would treat them like second class citizens in their countries). I might be inclined to agree that it is too late for the Palestinian people to get their two state solution, and maybe those areas have to get absorbed, but the Palestinian people would then become like what the Jewish people once were - a people without a land to call home. 

 

The irony is palpable. 

In regard to Jordan, about 60% of the population is of Palestinian Arab descent, including the 2.1 million Palestinian refugees that I mentioned previously.

[marioandsonic]

2 hours ago, SFLUFAN said:

Exactly.

 

The (((Soros))) nonsense is explicitly "Protocols" garbage that is never addressed by AIPAC's political allies and the Christian Zionists.

Does anyone else see the great irony in many Trump supporters calling out Omar for being anti-Semitic, while also firmly believing that Soros is some kind of grand puppetmaster controlling the Democratic party and various other global conspiracies?

[Greatoneshere]

4 minutes ago, SFLUFAN said:

In regard to Jordan, about 60% of the population is of Palestinian Arab descent, including the 2.1 million Palestinian refugees that I mentioned previously.

 

Making the distinction in treatment between Jordanians and current Palestinians all the more stupid, but people are stupid, so here we are, where enough Jordanians (and, more importantly, its government) do not look kindly on Palestians, is at least my understanding of the situation.

[mclumber1]

6 minutes ago, Greatoneshere said:

 

Joke post? Asking honestly.

 

I know a few Palestinian ex-pats/refugees and they certainly don't want to become "Egyptians" or "Jordanians" (people, btw, who resent and hate Palestinians anyway and would treat them like second class citizens in their countries). I might be inclined to agree that it is too late for the Palestinian people to get their two state solution, and maybe those areas have to get absorbed, but the Palestinian people would then become like what the Jewish people once were - a people without a land to call home. 

 

The irony is palpable. 

 

Is there some cultural or linguistic schism between Palestinian Arabs and other Arabs?  Are they not similar culturally? 

[Greatoneshere]

3 minutes ago, marioandsonic said:

Does anyone else see the great irony in many Trump supporters calling out Omar for being anti-Semitic, while also firmly believing that Soros is some kind of grand puppetmaster controlling the Democratic party and various other global conspiracies?

 

Given I pointed out the hypocrisy in a previous post on this page of this thread, I definitely see the great irony!  

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

5 minutes ago, b_m_b_m_b_m said:

Also to note: most American Jews are Democrats

 

Double also:

 

Seems reasonable

And this is why it's impossible to "win" when it comes to any discussion involving AIPAC.

 

You might as well just concede that you're gonna be called anti-Semitic and keep on truckin'.

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

3 minutes ago, marioandsonic said:

Does anyone else see the great irony in many Trump supporters calling out Omar for being anti-Semitic, while also firmly believing that Soros is some kind of grand puppetmaster controlling the Democratic party and various other global conspiracies?

I'm pretty sure that all of us on this board do 

[Greatoneshere]

3 minutes ago, mclumber1 said:

Is there some cultural or linguistic schism between Palestinian Arabs and other Arabs?  Are they not similar culturally? 

 

No, it's more or less the same, but like everywhere else, the Arab world loves to make its pointless distinctions between people too. When I first heard that surrounding Arab nations don't even like Palestinians and just use them as a political and religious prop against Israel, I was flabbergasted.

 

Plus, all of this doesn't make Israel's apartheid state any less bad. I just want to make sure we keep our eye on the ball.  

 

Yet, here we are. 

[Guest]

43 minutes ago, Greatoneshere said:

 

I think it's not that clear cut, though I may be misunderstanding - I think she wants Palestine to exist, which Israel clearly doesn't. Wanting Palestine to exist as a real country of its own isn't saying you don't want Israel to exist. Additionally, disapproving of Israel's apartheid policies, etc. against Palestine and Palestinians is, again, not saying the same thing as saying you don't want Israel to exist, it's disapproving of Israel's government specifically, not the idea of Israel existing. Furthermore, wanting a country to be secular and having separation of church and state (or synagogue/temple and state in this case) is, again, not saying Israel shouldn't exist, but probably shouldn't be a "Jewish" state - in the same way I don't want any predominantly Muslim country to be an "Islamic" state.

 

I haven't read everything Ilhan Omar has said though - has she just come out and said she doesn't want Israel to exist in its current form, or not at all?

 

You certainly can criticize the military actions of the Israeli government without hating Jews. You can take issue with political actions of the Israeli government without hating Jews.

 

You’re conflating ethnicity with religion. Israel is not the religiously Jewish state, it is the ethnically Jewish state. The Israeli government has no religious test to be elected to office. Israel has had Muslim representatives in it’s congress for 20 years.

 

But it is Tlaib who is the one stater, at least she is the one stater on record. Omar says she is a two stater and I will assume she really believes so unless something else comes out that shows otherwise.

[Greatoneshere]

19 minutes ago, sblfilms said:

 

You certainly can criticize the military actions of the Israeli government without hating Jews. You can take issue with political actions of the Israeli government without hating Jews.

 

You’re conflating ethnicity with religion. Israel is not the religiously Jewish state, it is the ethnically Jewish state. The Israeli government has no religious test to be elected to office. Israel has had Muslim representatives in it’s congress for 20 years.

 

But it is Tlaib who is the one stater, at least she is the one stater on record. Omar says she is a two stater and I will assume she really believes so unless something else comes out that shows otherwise.

 

I'm not conflating ethnicity with religion (I do understand the difference, I've certainly had enough Jewish friends explain it to me haha) - I'm saying that Ilhan Omar might be conflating the two, but that doesn't make her anti-Semitic. I agree that in practice Israel is not a religious state per se (though it certainly plays a strong role in Israel's policies, particularly in terms of its "settlement camps"). 

 

And if Ilhan Omar is a proponent of a two state solution, how is she anti-Semitic then?

[CitizenVectron]

Self-determination is a really tricky question. Will (and should) larger countries break up into smaller, ethnically-homogeneous states? Canada almost broke up in 1995, but the issue is kind of settled now, with the separatist parties basically dead. What about Spain, or the UK? It's a very tricky question.

[Greatoneshere]

Just now, CitizenVectron said:

Self-determination is a really tricky question. Will (and should) larger countries break up into smaller, ethnically-homogeneous states? Canada almost broke up in 1995, but the issue is kind of settled now, with the separatist parties basically dead. What about Spain, or the UK? It's a very tricky question.

 

I am absolutely all in on a one state solution, I just don't think either side can reasonably get themselves to do it due to all the bad blood and history between the two groups that exists right up to right now. 

[RedSoxFan9]

 

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Greatoneshere said:

And if Ilhan Omar is a proponent of a two state solution, how is she anti-Semitic then?

 

She uses anti-Semitic language. The onus is on her to show why it isn’t. Same as it is fair to make assumptions about what a person who proudly wears the “Make America Great Again” slogan means by it, a person who says the only Jewish state in the world is “hypnotizing the world” is going to have to show why they didn’t mean it THAT way.

[Greatoneshere]

5 minutes ago, sblfilms said:

She uses anti-Semitic language. The onus is on her to show why it isn’t. Same as it is fair to make assumptions about what a person who proudly wears the “Make America Great Again” slogan means by it, a person who says the only Jewish state in the world is “hypnotizing the world” is going to have to show why they didn’t mean it THAT way.

 

What should she have said in its stead to get the same point across? Asking honestly. 

[Jason]

Any attempt to make it clearer than it already is that she wasn't being antisemitic would have been met with the same reaction as "I'm not racist, but...". There's literally no way to say what she wanted to say without getting jumped on with antisemitism accusations.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Greatoneshere said:

 

What should she have said in its stead to get the same point across? Asking honestly. 

What point was she making when she said Israel is hypnotizing the world? I also don’t know why it’s hard to believe a person who grew up in Somalia and has continued to be very tight with the community would hold anti-Semitic beliefs.  Fighting prejudices that have been taught to you explicitly and implicitly in your most formative years is hard.

[Greatoneshere]

4 minutes ago, Jason said:

Any attempt to make it clearer than it already is that she wasn't being antisemitic would have been met with the same reaction as "I'm not racist, but...". There's literally no way to say what she wanted to say without getting jumped on with antisemitism accusations.

 

I agree, that is the point I'm trying to draw out with sblfilms.  

 

2 minutes ago, sblfilms said:

What point was she making when she said Israel is hypnotizing the world? I also don’t know why it’s hard to believe a person who grew up in Somalia and has continued to be very tight with the community would hold anti-Semitic beliefs.  Fighting prejudices that have been taught to you explicitly and implicitly in your most formative years is hard.

 

I agree with you about the second part, but she clearly was trying to say that Israel's propaganda machine has convinced the world to be wholly on its side when it actually does a number of despicable things to the Palestinian people. That's how I clearly read those words anyway. Is there something you're seeing that I'm not? Asking honestly because I don't see anything anti-Semitic in anything she said, personally. Just clear critiques of Israel/AIPAC that should be plain for anyone to see anyway. 

[Jason]

5 minutes ago, Greatoneshere said:

I agree, that is the point I'm trying to draw out with sblfilms.  

 

I was responding to him not to you.

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, Greatoneshere said:

 

I agree, that is the point I'm trying to draw out with sblfilms.  

 

 

I agree with you about the second part, but she clearly was trying to say that Israel's propaganda machine has convinced the world to be wholly on its side when it actually does a number of despicable things to the Palestinian people. That's how I clearly read those words anyway. Is there something you're seeing that I'm not? Asking honestly because I don't see anything anti-Semitic in anything she said, personally. Just clear critiques of Israel/AIPAC that should be plain for anyone to see anyway. 

 

When a white person refers to a criminal who is black as a thug, how do you perceive what they are saying?

[Greatoneshere]

9 minutes ago, sblfilms said:

When a white person refers to a criminal who is black as a thug, how do you perceive what they are saying?

 

But that context is totally different than Ilhan Omar, a Somali Muslim woman considered a marginalized person since she moved to the US in 1995, saying something about Israel/AIPAC and Palestinians, is nowhere near the same thing as an American white person saying an American black person is a "thug" in America. The analogy doesn't track to me. Again, I may be missing something with your analogy.

 

In your example, of course I perceive it as at least subversively racist.