Television Getting in to LOST again.

[Anathema-]

The wife decided to finally watch it. We got through the whole thing and started watching again. 

 

You and I can argue whether this is the greatest TV show of all time, that's fair. What's undeniable, though, is how obvious it is that the show was planned out from the beginning. 

 

A couple random skeletons have nothing to do with it either.  The first real episode of the show is named  Tabula Rasa. Locke describes the whole plan to kill Jacob in metaphor. Literally everyone clearly demonstrates the character problems that define them for six full seasons and character arcs all revolve around the same moral structure. 

 

There are lots of problems and it did have a bad habit of asking some questions it wasn't prepared to answer. But even with all its real flaws it was just one of the first victims of toxic fandom. Too many people saying that their fanfic not becoming reality was evidence of bad writing.

 

Only show that holds a candle to LOST is BSG. I cried at the finale all over again. 

[Ominous]

I loved Lost.

[skillzdadirecta]

Lol I was just telling someone the other day thay Lost is one of those shows that the journey definitely is overshadowed by the ending. Very few shows failed to stick the loanding worse than this one. Not only did it not stick the landing, at missed the mat and broke both its legs. I don't think I've ever been more disappointed in the finale to a show than this one and I didn't forgive Linedelof for YEARS. He didn't redeem himself with me until Watchmen on HBO. Kudos to those who still love the show, and I recognize what it means for television history and big, high concept network shows but yeah... that show was such a letdown that I doubt I'll ever revisit it. That said, its still has one of the BEST pilot episodes ever produced for television. Loved that score too. 

 

35 minutes ago, Anathema- said:

What's undeniable, though, is how obvious it is that the show was planned out from the beginning. 

Dude I happen to know for a fact that the altered the plan between the second and third seasons and spent a lot of time floundering to make all of the stuff they introduced make sense. In fact the ending we got was NOT what was planned initially and the island was COMPLETELY different from what it ended up being. They wrote themselves into several corners and spent a whole lot of time trying to figure out how to get out of them... with varying degrees of success.

[AbsolutSurgen]

The last season was so absolutely horrible, that it negated all of the great stuff it did in the early seasons.

[Massdriver]

It was a good, addicting journey that I don't really want to watch again, but maybe some day! The ending was a disappointment to me, but I didn't hate it.

[skillzdadirecta]

44 minutes ago, AbsolutSurgen said:

The last season was so absolutely horrible, that it negated all of the great stuff it did in the early seasons.

That's kinda how I feel. 

[Guest]

I liked it well enough, goofy ending and all. But also one time was good for me.

[Remarkableriots]

I don't remember Lost very well anymore, but I do remember when my friend would stop by my job, and we talked about the show while having a snack. We both worked the graveyard shift, but he was the gaming guy who would stop by and pay the tickets paid out, jackpots, or whenever he was bored.

I still talk with him by text.

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

Why would you do this to yourself?!?

[Remarkableriots]

5 minutes ago, Commissar SFLUFAN said:

Why would you do this to yourself?!?

[Jason]

3 hours ago, skillzdadirecta said:

Lol I was just telling someone the other day thay Lost is one of those shows that the journey definitely is overshadowed by the ending. Very few shows failed to stick the loanding worse than this one. Not only did it not stick the landing, at missed the mat and broke both its legs. I don't think I've ever been more disappointed in the finale to a show than this one and I didn't forgive Linedelof for YEARS. He didn't redeem himself with me until Watchmen on HBO. Kudos to those who still love the show, and I recognize what it means for television history and big, high concept network shows but yeah... that show was such a letdown that I doubt I'll ever revisit it. That said, its still has one of the BEST pilot episodes ever produced for television. Loved that score too. 

 

I've never watched Lost but from what I've read about it JJ Abrams has always been a one-trick pony on the ever-expanding abandoned-plotlines unplanned mystery box bullshit that never pays off. I really don't understand how he got so big.

[EternallDarkness]

I'm a fan, crappy ending and all. There were just some excellent episodes, even some of the throw away episodes were good.

[Kal-El814]

25 minutes ago, Jason said:

I've never watched Lost but from what I've read about it JJ Abrams has always been a one-trick pony on the ever-expanding abandoned-plotlines unplanned mystery box bullshit that never pays off. I really don't understand how he got so big.

 

He's good at evoking in the moment feels and his vibes are usually on point.

[Jason]

1 minute ago, Kal-El814 said:

He's good at evoking in the moment feels and his vibes are usually on point.

 

Then why was Episode 7 blatant cloying memberberries bullshit?

[Kal-El814]

1 minute ago, Jason said:

Then why was Episode 7 blatant cloying memberberries bullshit?

 

TFA is... fine. Abrams leans too hard on homage and the movie works best when everyone's running and doesn't leave the audience a lot of time to think, but... it's fine. It's not great but I think it generally succeeds at what it's trying to do. Yes, it's got misses like Leia and Chewie not bonding after Han's death. And I'll never understood why he cast the world's most beautiful woman and then made her play Maz. But it's still fun.

 

RoS is all of his bad instincts on a cocaine binge. I don't know how much of that is actually his fault; the movie clearly could have used more time in the oven and in hindsight Disney's insistence on hitting a specific date made everything worse. But it's one of the few Abrams vehicles that doesn't work even when everyone's running and going pew pew pew. And while I love TLJ and appreciate that it some people disliked parts of it (ignoring the chud response, naturally), I don't know that I've seen any movie so actively afraid of its predecessor. It's bad, it's cowardly, it's uncreative, it's nonsense.

 

As far as nepo babies go, you could do a lot worse than Abrams.

[Jason]

12 minutes ago, Kal-El814 said:

As far as nepo babies go, you could do a lot worse than Abrams.

 

[Jason]

Also TFA would have been fine if it was, let's get all the fanservice out of the way now so we can do something new in the next two movies. I distinctly remember walking out of TFA thinking that. Then they...just didn't do that. 

[Kal-El814]

Just now, Jason said:

 

 

He was always a bad fit for Trek. He could have made a good version of something like First Contact, I think? Well established characters, more of a straightforward conflict as opposed to a moral dilemma, etc. But putting him at the helm for a franchise reboot? That was just never going to work.

[Greatoneshere]

Abrams was barely involved with Lost after the pilot episode and season 1. That was very much a Damon Lindelof/Carlton Cuse joint.

[skillzdadirecta]

1 hour ago, Greatoneshere said:

Abrams was barely involved with Lost after the pilot episode and season 1. That was very much a Damon Lindelof/Carlton Cuse joint.

[Anathema-]

Right, and looking at lindelof's post-lost work it's obvious that the show belongs much more to him than anyone else. 

 

Anyway, show absolutely stuck the landing not sure how you could say otherwise.

 

And just because they had plans they needed to change doesn't mean they didn't always know where they were going. The only other alternative was that they wrote a multi year serial story that includes foreshadowing just by the seat of their pants. 

 

No, they talked many times about knowing where they were going but had to change how they got there. They also talked about how the show went from open ended to closed halfway through and yes you can see the seams where that was supposed to happen. But the whole deal with the two island brothers, what the island is and why people are there, and the guiding moral code are all incredibly consistent from beginning to end. 

 

 

[Anathema-]

I wish I could find a clip online but John Locke literally describes the whole plan in the first season talking about mouse trap.

 

That's just superficial though. The parallel journeys of John and Jack are clear and consistent through the entire show. The idea that someone could have done all that by the seat of their pants is frankly far more difficult to believe than knowing their characters and where they want them to go ahead of time. 

[TheLeon]

It’s been a while, but this is how I remember Lost breaking down:

 

S1: starts with a bang, keeps banging.

 

S2: mostly great, little bit of spinning their wheels that’s still largely entertaining 

 

S3: a total slog for at least half the season, but the last few episodes are so good, all is forgiven

 

S4-6: “At this point, we hope you’re on board no matter what, because shit’s gonna get real weird.” And I was. 

[Anathema-]

I would peg the s3 slog as more like 1/3 the season but yeah it gets rough there. Glad they didn't have to tread water long. 

[Slug]

The Woman and I watched the hell out of Lost when it originally aired.  Loved it.  If I had any gripe it would be WALT!  WALT?!  WAAAAAAAAAAALT!!!!  WALT??? WAAAAAAAAAALT!!!!

[Anathema-]

4 hours ago, Slug said:

The Woman and I watched the hell out of Lost when it originally aired.  Loved it.  If I had any gripe it would be WALT!  WALT?!  WAAAAAAAAAAALT!!!!  WALT??? WAAAAAAAAAALT!!!!

 

Oh god yeah that annoyance never fades and the wife definitely picked up on it too. 

[MarSolo]

Am I crazy or do I remember reading that Mr. Eko was supposed to be on the show till the very end but the actor hated being on the show so much that he asked to be killed off?

[skillzdadirecta]

1 hour ago, MarSolo said:

Am I crazy or do I remember reading that Mr. Eko was supposed to be on the show till the very end but the actor hated being on the show so much that he asked to be killed off?

There was something going on there... 

 

On 1/17/2023 at 1:09 AM, Anathema- said:

The only other alternative was that they wrote a multi year serial story that includes foreshadowing just by the seat of their pants. 

 

That's not the only other alternative. What happened according to writers who worked on the show the first two seasons was that because this was the early days of the internet and online discussion of a show like this, inevietably some online posters got a little too close to what the island was ultimately supposed to be in their speculations which rattled the shit out of Lindelof. At the time he was very involved in the online reaction and it spooked him so much that he lost faith in his original ending and decided to change it. He was encouraged by certain folks, "cough Abrams cough", that the resolution to the mystery wouldn't matter as much as the journey (Abrams own approach to storytelling) Couple that with Lindelof's initial plan for the show to end after four seasons and the network's desire to keep it on for as long as possible, along with all of the mishaps and production delays they experienced because of destroyed sets and actor misconduct and you did indeed have a show that ultimately floundered for several seasons and TOTALLY flew by the seat of their pants.

 

Lost is a show that is basically three different shows... there's the first two and a half seasons that were more or less building towards Lindelof's original ending that he conceived, then there's the middle part where the show is kind of treading water, then there's the last part that starts to build towards the ending we got. The problem is those three parts don't line up properly and whole plot threads and stoylines were straight up abanadoned (what happened with Walt and his psychic abilitles that were alluded to in the first season?) The show is a hodgepodge of ideas and characters and for some, the journey DID overshadow the destination and that's fine. But this show did anything BUT stick the landing. Lindelof learned a valuable lesson after this and one of the things he did was get off social media I believe because it was causing him too much anxiety. Ultimately I think that's a good thing. 

[Anathema-]

1 hour ago, MarSolo said:

Am I crazy or do I remember reading that Mr. Eko was supposed to be on the show till the very end but the actor hated being on the show so much that he asked to be killed off?

 

His father died and he asked to be written off but yes you can see the basic outline of his character with what we saw. I think his end was the one they had planned for him just early. 

[skillzdadirecta]

On 1/17/2023 at 1:22 AM, Anathema- said:

The parallel journeys of John and Jack are clear and consistent through the entire show.

Jack wasn't even supposed to survive the pilot originally

 

Lost: Jack Was Supposed To Die In The Original Pilot Episode

SCREENRANT.COM

---

In the original version of the Lost pilot episode, Jack - who would have been played by Michael Keaton - was supposed to die in a shocking twist.

 

Quote

The pilot was to star Michael Keaton as Jack, but this was far from its only difference. In Lost pilot that aired on TV, Jack, Kate, and Charlie (Dominic Monaghan) went into the jungle to find the cockpit of the plane. While there, the smoke monster killed the co-pilot (Greg Gunberg), but Jack, Kate, and Charlie survived. In the original pilot, however, Jack would have died in place of the co-pilot.

 

Though Jack was supposed to die, he was still going to be presented as the lead, just as he was in the final version. His death was to be sudden and shocking, and something that would let viewers know that no one was safe. According to Keaton, he liked the idea behind the twist and was fine with playing the character, especially since it was only for the pilot episode. But the producers eventually decided that audiences were going to like Jack, and that it would be better to keep him. So when the pilot was reworked to keep Jack alive as the lead, Keaton passed on the role, as he wasn't interested in shooting full seasons.

 

The show was never intended to be about John vs Jack initially. Not sure who they had planned to take Jack's place after he died in their original plan... not sure if they knew either. The show is not as tightly constructed as you think bro... sorry 

[Massdriver]

Since Star Trek was mentioned:

 

 

My favorite. 

[Anathema-]

55 minutes ago, skillzdadirecta said:

There was something going on there... 

 

That's not the only other alternative. What happened according to writers who worked on the show the first two seasons was that because this was the early days of the internet and online discussion of a show like this, inevietably some online posters got a little too close to what the island was ultimately supposed to be in their speculations which rattled the shit out of Lindelof. At the time he was very involved in the online reaction and it spooked him so much that he lost faith in his original ending and decided to change it. He was encouraged by certain folks, "cough Abrams cough", that the resolution to the mystery wouldn't matter as much as the journey (Abrams own approach to storytelling) Couple that with Lindelof's initial plan for the show to end after four seasons and the network's desire to keep it on for as long as possible, along with all of the mishaps and production delays they experienced because of destroyed sets and actor misconduct and you did indeed have a show that ultimately floundered for several seasons and TOTALLY flew by the seat of their pants.

 

Lost is a show that is basically three different shows... there's the first two and a half seasons that were more or less building towards Lindelof's original ending that he conceived, then there's the middle part where the show is kind of treading water, then there's the last part that starts to build towards the ending we got. The problem is those three parts don't line up properly and whole plot threads and stoylines were straight up abanadoned (what happened with Walt and his psychic abilitles that were alluded to in the first season?) The show is a hodgepodge of ideas and characters and for some, the journey DID overshadow the destination and that's fine. But this show did anything BUT stick the landing. Lindelof learned a valuable lesson after this and one of the things he did was get off social media I believe because it was causing him too much anxiety. Ultimately I think that's a good thing. 

 

I'm going to very gently say you have many details wrong here and I think you've mixed up a lot with something else. A lot is right or similar but a lot is off.

 

As far as Jack originally dying in the pilot that's not significant (and well known, did you think I forgot?). Damon and Carlton were extremely open and explicit the entire time that they knew where they were going even though they had to change how they got there more than once. So what if Jack wasn't originally supposed to survive? It wasn't a last minute decision. They adjusted their plans.

 

Bottom line is that the narrative bears out the consistency. Too many coincidences pile up to believe otherwise, it's also a bit cranky.

[skillzdadirecta]

5 hours ago, Anathema- said:

 

I'm going to very gently say you have many details wrong here and I think you've mixed up a lot with something else. A lot is right or similar but a lot is off.

 

As far as Jack originally dying in the pilot that's not significant (and well known, did you think I forgot?). Damon and Carlton were extremely open and explicit the entire time that they knew where they were going even though they had to change how they got there more than once. So what if Jack wasn't originally supposed to survive? It wasn't a last minute decision. They adjusted their plans.

 

Bottom line is that the narrative bears out the consistency. Too many coincidences pile up to believe otherwise, it's also a bit cranky.

You can call it cranky, I'm just going by what I've been told by people who actually worked on the show. Where the show ended up is NOT where it was originally intended to go. That's a fact. Network TV just doesn't work like that. Lindelof originally intended for the show to go four maybe five seasons tops. They never knew it was going to be a huge hit and when it became one, the network stepped in and started fucking with shit. Characters were pushed to the forefront that were never intended to be there and Lindelof changed the ending (well at least what the island was originally intended to be) for fear that it would be anticlimactic because some theories on the internet got a little to close to what he intended. I don't want to get into an argument about this because ultimately I don't give a shit either way. Enjoy the show... don't let me or anybody else take that away from you. But just because some themes were consistent throughout the show doesn;t mean they had the whole thing planned and didn;t deviate from whatever plan they did have. They did. The fact that the changed Jack's fate from the pilot should give you an idea of how fluid the creation of the show was. That's the nature of the beast. You enjoyed the show, great. I thought it was a huge letdown and actively betrayed a lot of fans due some storylines ultimately being unresolved filler that never amounted to anything. I'll leave you to it and we can agree to disagree. I'm not about to get into a back and forth with anyone about this ultimately extremely overrated TV show. The fact that you're subtly throwing personal jabs shows me that this means a lot more to you than it does to me  

[MarSolo]

What was the island supposed to be? Was the purgatory theory really the end game?

 

Also, I like Abrams Star Trek… it actually made me a fan of Star Trek 😢

[Kal-El814]

21 minutes ago, MarSolo said:

What was the island supposed to be? Was the purgatory theory really the end game?

 

Also, I like Abrams Star Trek… it actually made me a fan of Star Trek 😢

 

Trek ‘09 isn’t a bad movie at all, it’s just bad Trek.

 

Into Darkness is just bad straight up.