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UK government to block Scottish pro-transgender bill

CitizenVectron
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Joe

Joe

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Don’t folks thinks this bill goes a little too far? 16 years old and you don’t need a diagnosis of gender dysphoria? Kind of playing devil’s advocate here to be clear, but I’m curious as this law seems legitimately kind of extreme to me at first glance.

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Guest

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3 minutes ago, Commissar SFLUFAN said:

 

I have no idea as I'm absolutely unqualified on every level to even begin opining on it.


There would be around 2 posts a year on this board if qualifications were required to opine

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TUFKAK

TUFKAK

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1 minute ago, Commissar SFLUFAN said:

 

Unlike practically everything else we discuss, this is one subject area that I wouldn't even know where to begin.

I can only say anecdotally with my past of dating a trans-woman, she knew she was a woman at 6. Took her years to adjust, then faced her family and community blackballing her for it, attempted suicide once, dx with depression and anxiety. After transitioning her mental health improved and thusly her life. Anything that limits that harm to he other Denise’s out there is a good thing imo.

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CayceG

CayceG

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30 minutes ago, Joe said:

Don’t folks thinks this bill goes a little too far? 16 years old and you don’t need a diagnosis of gender dysphoria? Kind of playing devil’s advocate here to be clear, but I’m curious as this law seems legitimately kind of extreme to me at first glance.

 

No. Here's what it does:

 

_128323210_protesters2_pa.jpg

What are the plans for gender reforms in Scotland?

WWW.BBC.COM
What changes are planned for the gender recognition process, and why are they so controversial?
Quote

No diagnosis or medical reports would be required, and the period in which applicants need to have lived in their acquired gender would be cut to three months.

 

One of the most controversial proposals is to lower the minimum age that someone can apply from 18 to 16 - although 16 and 17-year-olds would need to have lived as their acquired gender for six months rather than three.

 

Anyone wanting to change their legal gender will still need to swear an oath about remaining this way for life - with it being a criminal offence to make a false declaration or application - and there would be a three-month "reflection period" before a certificate was issued.

 

In theory, only a small number of people would be directly affected by any reforms, with the NHS estimating that transgender people make up about 0.5% of the population.

 

This is a change from the current process which is a much longer time:

Quote

Applicants need to provide two medical reports, one from a specialist detailing their diagnosis and another listing any treatment or surgery they may have had to change their sexual characteristics.

 

They must also prove they have lived full-time in their acquired gender for at least two years - for example showing they have used a different name in official documents, or changed their gender on their driving licence or passport - and swear an oath that they intend to continue for the rest of their lives.

 

 

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LazyPiranha

LazyPiranha

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5 minutes ago, AbsolutSurgen said:

Why is requiring a gender dysphoria diagnosis, transitioning 2-years and being at least 18 too stringent?


If those guidelines aren’t being made by doctors and experts in the area and are instead being made by handwringing godbotherers and outright bigots, then what good are they?
 

Like Wade, I don’t feel qualified to know, but that’s the entire point.  The overwhelming majority of people pushing for age limits, official diagnoses, etc don’t seem to be the medical community that actually practices and studies these things, but random people with at best questionable motives.  Something that seems common sense to me in the field is utterly meaningless because I’ve never questioned my gender so I have no opinion that means a damn for people who do. 

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CitizenVectron

CitizenVectron

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Also people get all up in arms about the idea of a 16-year-old changing genders and then realizing a few years later that they want to change back. Okay...and? They could then change back. What is the big deal? Also, from what I know on this matter, this rarely, rarely happens. The far-right likes to go on and on about anecdotal cases of transgender people regretting their decision and later changing back, but they can never back it up (same thing with their "stats" saying that most women regret abortions). 

 

These people aren't trying to protect people from making "mistakes," they are afraid of people changing legal genders at all, so want to stop it.

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LazyPiranha

LazyPiranha

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3 hours ago, AbsolutSurgen said:
original.jpg

Take Detransitioners Seriously - The Atlantic

WWW.THEATLANTIC.COM
Some people reverse their gender transition. Understanding their experience is crucial.

 

A somewhat balanced opinion piece from The Atlantic today.


This feels like a sensational headline that isn’t supported by an article that can basically be boiled down to a shrug emoji.


Maybe I missed it, but I couldn’t find anything in the article to support the notion that doctors and practitioners in the field ignore people who choose to cease transitioning in the way they diagnose, treat, advise, or care for patients.  The only argument the article makes in that area is that, and brace yourselves now, some people who openly discuss how they chose not to transition are given a hard time for it online.  You don’t say.  You can find people who are harassed online for the way they hold a slice of pizza.  
 

So what is the point then?  Who isn’t taking the possibility or statistical likelihood of someone opting out of full transitions?  The article doesn’t say, just merely implies that maybe perhaps that’s happening and provides nothing to support that fact.  The authors point to some information that shows a decent portion of people who seek treatment have that treatment be changed over time, which would lead one to believe that doctors actually do listen to patients and treat their concerns with due care and diligence.  
 

The article provides no evidence that people choosing to cease treatment aren’t considered in the care model for transgender patients and provides no actual evidence that people cease treatment more often than people suspect. 

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CayceG

CayceG

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6 hours ago, AbsolutSurgen said:
original.jpg

Take Detransitioners Seriously - The Atlantic

WWW.THEATLANTIC.COM
Some people reverse their gender transition. Understanding their experience is crucial.

 

A somewhat balanced opinion piece from The Atlantic today.

 

No it isn't. 

 

Allow me to repost Michael Hobbes to explain why:

 

Image

 

"This is such bad-faith bullshit. States are banning gender-affirming care; wackjobs are showing up to libraries with AR-15s.

 

And we're hearing *again* about how trans people are mean to detransitioners? 

 

This article doesn't cite a single example of this happening, btw."

 

Image

 

"This is just a factual statement. Detransitioners *are* similar to ex-gays. And many of them *are* anti-trans activists. Most of the ones quoted in articles like this are working to restrict access to transition! Why shouldn't the people affected by their advocacy point that out?"

 

"This is the second nearly identical article in the last month. 

 

Both sound like conspiracy theories: Constantly crying "why isn't anyone talking about detransitioners?!" when all of the coverage of youth transition has focused on detransitioners almost exclusively."

 

"Not going to debunk the numbers in this one because I already did it with the last one! 

 

A medical system designed to prevent *every single case of regret* would not let anyone transition. THAT is the reason transphobes relentlessly center detransitioners."

 

(he debunked it in another tweet thread)

TL;DR, detransitioning is incredibly rare. 

 

Assigned Media takes this Atlantic article down. 

The Atlantic Provides a Misleading Picture of Detransition — Assigned

WWW.ASSIGNEDMEDIA.ORG
The authors of the latest article on detransition misled readers about the research and obscured the extreme beliefs of their main anecdotal example, Chris Beck.

 

"Terrific breakdown from Assigned, as usual. Apparently the main source for this piece is a far-right anti-trans campaigner. 

 

Maybe *that's* why we keep saying that some detransitioners are anti-trans! "

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b_m_b_m_b_m

b_m_b_m_b_m

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12 hours ago, Ricofoley said:

If you want to listen to some really shitty books get dunked on, the new podcast that he cohosts is very good

 

images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSdXXE4RPlf04sRXpDsRNf

If Books Could Kill

PODCASTS.GOOGLE.COM
The airport bestsellers that captured our hearts and ruined our minds

 

Oh yeah I’ve been following this since it dropped in the 5-4 feed a few weeks ago. Highly recommend this one to general audiences because it’s much more accessible and relatable 

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thewhyteboar

thewhyteboar

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On 1/20/2023 at 10:05 AM, Ricofoley said:

If you want to listen to some really shitty books get dunked on, the new podcast that he cohosts is very good

 

images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSdXXE4RPlf04sRXpDsRNf

If Books Could Kill

PODCASTS.GOOGLE.COM
The airport bestsellers that captured our hearts and ruined our minds

 

Listening to the Gladwell episode now. I hope they do one on The Alchemist, one of my pet hates.

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TheShader

TheShader

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On 1/18/2023 at 7:42 AM, Joe said:

Don’t folks thinks this bill goes a little too far? 16 years old and you don’t need a diagnosis of gender dysphoria? Kind of playing devil’s advocate here to be clear, but I’m curious as this law seems legitimately kind of extreme to me at first glance.

Current medical recommendation is to allow children puberty blockers during the onset of puberty which pauses their puberty, and at 16 they can make the decision to go through their body's natural puberty or to go through the opposite puberty via hormone therapy. 

 

There's absolutely nothing wrong or extreme about this, and is more conservative than anything. What is cruel and extreme is to force kids through a puberty that will alter their bodies in ways that can be hurtful for trans youth. And requiring a dysphoria diagnosis has only been shown to delay the process by years, as the wait list for people who are qualified to make the diagnosis can be years long, and then the process once in can continue for a year or more, assuming they even decide you have a diagnosis to do with your body what feels right to you. 

 

Meanwhile, in the time it takes to go through the wrong puberty, only to be able to get a diagnosis years after you've turned 18 and are in your 20s, many trans individuals kill themselves from the stresses and dysphoria of both living in the wrong body as well as having a societal system that holds their life saving medicine just out of reach for a decade or more after they've started their original puberty as a kid. 

 

And kids know who they are, it's often family and society that constantly tries to tell them they're wrong. 

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BloodyHell

BloodyHell

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On 1/18/2023 at 4:54 PM, CitizenVectron said:

Also people get all up in arms about the idea of a 16-year-old changing genders and then realizing a few years later that they want to change back. Okay...and? They could then change back. What is the big deal? Also, from what I know on this matter, this rarely, rarely happens. The far-right likes to go on and on about anecdotal cases of transgender people regretting their decision and later changing back, but they can never back it up (same thing with their "stats" saying that most women regret abortions). 

 

These people aren't trying to protect people from making "mistakes," they are afraid of people changing legal genders at all, so want to stop it.

I mean, most (sane) people don’t have a problem with social transition at 16. It’s medical transition that people are opposed to. Puberty blockers (usually Lupron) do cause sterilization. No child that young is capable of making a decision that is as irreversible as that.

 

but changing a birth certificate? Who cares, they can change it back.

 

but yes, there are definitely a valid percentage of detransitioners that feel they didn’t get nearly enough psychological/psychiatric care to understand what was going on, and felt medical intervention, including surgery, was given far too easily at too young age. Claiming it’s rare doesn’t help, because nobody wants to do a study to find out what the percentage is, and detrans people have been harassed quite often for telling their stories. (Yes, I know trans people are harassed too, but that doesn’t mean it’s ok for them to do to anyone who does detrans).

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LazyPiranha

LazyPiranha

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1 hour ago, BloodyHell said:

I mean, most (sane) people don’t have a problem with social transition at 16. It’s medical transition that people are opposed to. Puberty blockers (usually Lupron) do cause sterilization. No child that young is capable of making a decision that is as irreversible as that.

 

but changing a birth certificate? Who cares, they can change it back.

 

but yes, there are definitely a valid percentage of detransitioners that feel they didn’t get nearly enough psychological/psychiatric care to understand what was going on, and felt medical intervention, including surgery, was given far too easily at too young age. Claiming it’s rare doesn’t help, because nobody wants to do a study to find out what the percentage is, and detrans people have been harassed quite often for telling their stories. (Yes, I know trans people are harassed too, but that doesn’t mean it’s ok for them to do to anyone who does detrans).


 

Where are you getting that puberty blockers cause sterility?

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