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I haven't seen Captain Marvel yet, but rather than compare it to all superhero films, I think it's a more useful/interesting discussion to look at how it compares to other MCU origin story films (or other superhero origin story movies in general). Looking at it that way, how do people feel Captain Marvel compares? Here's all the MCU origin story films (and how I'd rank them personally from favorite to least favorite):

 

My Ranking:

-Iron Man 1

-Captain America: The First Avenger

-Black Panther

-Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 1

-Doctor Strange

-Spider-Man: Homecoming

-Ant-Man

-Thor

-The Incredible Hulk

 

None of these to me are downright amazing but most of them are actually good now that I reflect on them (though many of them are "same-y" in terms of plot and character structure), some great, and some mediocre. What are other peoples' lists and where does Captain Marvel fit in?

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This isn't exact, but I'd say something like:

 

Tier 1

Guardians

Iron Man

Spider-Man

 

Tier 2

Ant-Man

Captain America

Captain Marvel

Black Panther

 

Tier 3

Doctor Strange

Thor

Hulk

 

It's in the middle of the pack. Worth watching, but not great. 

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Were Spiderman and Black Panther origin movies? Black Panther I can KINDA see it but Spiderman? They made sure to NOT retread his origin. It's a solo movie but not an origin film. I'd rank the Origin films

 

Iron Man

Guardians of The Galaxy

Dr Strange

Captain America First Avenger

Ant Man

Captain Marvel

Thor

The Incredible Hulk

 

I'd put Wonder Woman and Aquaman above Captain Marvel too, but put it on par with Man of Steel. Just so folks know, I enjoyed ALL of these movies and my ranking is in no way an indicator of their individual quality, just a ranking of how much I enjoyed each film.

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1 hour ago, Greatoneshere said:

I haven't seen Captain Marvel yet, but rather than compare it to all superhero films, I think it's a more useful/interesting discussion to look at how it compares to other MCU origin story films (or other superhero origin story movies in general). Looking at it that way, how do people feel Captain Marvel compares?

 

For myself:

-Iron Man 1

-Captain America: The First Avenger

-Spider-Man: Homecoming

-Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 1

-Black Panther

-Doctor Strange

-Thor

-Captain Marvel

-The Incredible Hulk

-Ant-Man

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Now that I think about it, The Incredible Hulk isn't an origin story either. He's already The Hulk when the movie starts and they don't retread his origin either because they figure the audience already knows.

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Compared to the other origin movies, I'd rank it above Ant-Man, Dr Strange, Hulk, and Thor, but below Iron Man, Guardians, Captain America...and if we do include Spider-Man and Black Panther, I'd rank it behind those as well. That leaves it very middle of the pack for me.

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I understand why people think The Incredible Hulk, Spider-Man: Homecoming, and Black Panther weren't origin stories, but for all intents and purposes they may as well be. They go through a lot of origin story character and plot beats and it is the introduction of each character formally to the MCU. I think they count but if someone doesn't want to count them then I do understand that to some degree.

 

From the four users who have contributed lists so far, Captain Marvel is in the bottom half of origin story MCU films in all of them. Not great for Captain Marvel, but interesting. I also see that everyone's lists otherwise agree with each other so far except for @TwinIon weirdly hating Ant-Man. :p  Doctor Strange and Ant-Man are the most variable, with some finding one or the other mediocre, but liking the other one. 

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@Greatoneshere Going by your rankings, I'd put Captain Marvel right between Guardians 1 and Strange, but I also though Spider Man was better than Strange and just a hair below Guardians. Then again, I have a soft spot for Spider Man I have a hard time overlooking, so take that with whatever salt you want.I wouldn't put it bottom half, just merely right in the middle. At the very least, that still puts it ahead of nearly all MCU sequels since the only legitimately good part two in the Marvel Universe is Winter Soldier.

 

My only real concern with Captain Marvel is how/if they plan to take her down a notch in End Game. They powered down Maximoff quite a bit after someone thought she was too strong for the MCU. Now we have someone that's near Superman levels and I have no idea how that's going to play going forward. That's nothing of a spoiler since she's punching spaceships in the trailers...also, she's always been that ridiculously strong.

 

One other non-spoilery thing I want to mention. Watching the end of Captain Marvel and it dawned on me that Fury had no reason to reach out to Carol prior to Infinity Wars. The events of Avengers were resolved in what? A couple of in-movie hours? Age of Ultron was resolved in how long? A little bit longer? For a problem completely the fault of humans?

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18 minutes ago, Ghost_MH said:

My only real concern with Captain Marvel is how/if they plan to take her down a notch in End Game. They powered down Maximoff quite a bit after someone thought she was too strong for the MCU. Now we have someone that's near Superman levels and I have no idea how that's going to play going forward. That's nothing of a spoiler since she's punching spaceships in the trailers...also, she's always been that ridiculously strong.

 

No need to power her down really... she's at LEAST as powerful as Thor now and he got a power up in Ragnorok and Infinity War. At the end of Infinity War with Storm Bringer he was single handedly knocking spaceships out of the sky and nearly killed Thanos. That's why I think there's gonna be an even bigger baddie in End Game because by the end of Infinity War, Thor was about to hand Thanos his ass to him. 

 

Also good point about Fury not calling Captain Marvel before... Sam Jackson said as much himself in one interviews for Captain Marvel.

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17 minutes ago, Ghost_MH said:

@Greatoneshere Going by your rankings, I'd put Captain Marvel right between Guardians 1 and Strange, but I also though Spider Man was better than Strange and just a hair below Guardians. Then again, I have a soft spot for Spider Man I have a hard time overlooking, so take that with whatever salt you want.I wouldn't put it bottom half, just merely right in the middle. At the very least, that still puts it ahead of nearly all MCU sequels since the only legitimately good part two in the Marvel Universe is Winter Soldier.

 

I should have noted that I still thoroughly enjoyed Spider-Man: Homecoming and Doctor Strange about equally regardless of my list, they are pretty interchangeable for me (along with Ant-Man). And technically based on your list Captain Marvel is in the bottom half - just closer to the middle than the bottom of that half. :p 

 

Also, just so everyone knows, it's "Endgame" officially, as in one word, with only the E capitalized. Just going forward. 

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5 hours ago, skillzdadirecta said:

 

No need to power her down really... she's at LEAST as powerful as Thor now and he got a power up in Ragnorok and Infinity War. At the end of Infinity War with Storm Bringer he was single handedly knocking spaceships out of the sky and nearly killed Thanos. That's why I think there's gonna be an even bigger baddie in End Game because by the end of Infinity War, Thor was about to hand Thanos his ass to him.

 

I think the biggest gripe/unknown gripe people might have is just how she got her powers and how it's making her the strongest. To see a man-made (alien-made) thing that they shoot a ray gun at that causes an explosiony thing that happens to hit her and make her teh stronkest is kinda uninspired. You see Cap get his limited powers from a formula, Panther get his limited powers from some flower (fruit?), and Hulk get his limited powers from radiation - and they're all still limited. Capt. Marvel, though? I shot an engine and the splash back did cool things to me making me the best of all time.... :Dunno:

 

At least Thor is a natural god, and his weapon is the condensed powers of a star. So I hope Endgame puts some humiliation in her powers just so she's part of the team and not the solution to the team (ie, Thanos is gonna get it once she's face to face with him, but for the entire movie she keeps getting sidetracked by saving kittens or something, lol).

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2 minutes ago, IdeaOfEvil said:

 

I think the biggest gripe/unknown gripe people might have is just how she got her powers and how it's making her the strongest. To see a man-made (alien-made) thing that they shoot a ray gun at that causes an explosiony thing that happens to hit her and make her teh stronkest is kinda uninspired. You see Cap get his limited powers from a formula, Panther get his limited from some flower (fruit?), and Hulk get his limited powers from radiation - and they're all still limited. Capt. Marvel, though? I shot an engine and the splash back did cool things to me making me the best of all time.... :Dunno:

 

At least Thor is a natural god, and his weapon is the condensed powers of a star. So I hope Endgame puts some humiliation in her powers just so she's part of the team and not the solution to the team (ie, Thanos is gonna get once she's face to face with him, but for the entire movie she keeps getting sidetracked by saving kittens or something, lol).

Dude, who gives a fuck really? The Hulk is one of the strongest beings in comics and his powers come from a "man made source" as you put it. It's clear her powers are somewhat derived from

Spoiler

From the tesseract aka the space stone.

 

 

Come on... for real. I get you have an issue with this character for some reason, but really? Her origin is CLASSIC comic book pop origin stuff. None of that shit makes sense.

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I don’t think characters that were introduced in other movies count as true origin stories. We already knew who Spider-Man and Black Panther were in this world before their movies. 

 

My list:

1. Guardians (by a lot)

 

 

2. Captain Marvel

3. Dr. Strange 

4. Iron man 

5. Antman 

6. Captain America 

 

 

 

 

 

 

7. Hulk

8. Thor

 

if you really want to include the other two they would be above captain marvel

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“Origin story” is just shorthand for saying it’s the first full movie featuring a certain character. Let’s not be pedantic when it comes to comic book and superhero movies. I can’t think of anything less worthwhile to get pedantic about.

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3 minutes ago, sexy_shapiro said:

“Origin story” is just shorthand for saying it’s the first full movie featuring a certain character. Let’s not be pedantic when it comes to comic book and superhero movies. I can’t think of anything less worthwhile to get pedantic about.

Have you ever spoken to people who discuss superhero movies? 

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2 hours ago, skillzdadirecta said:

Come on... for real. I get you have an issue with this character for some reason, but really? Her origin is CLASSIC comic book pop origin stuff. None of that shit makes sense.

 

You do? Wowzers... Cuz from this statement I know you've never once read a comment I made about this movie, let alone having read the one you're replying to :rolleyes:

 

How is it that you get to say "who gives a fuck?" when you absolutely were just talking about how you think there's gonna be a more powerful enemy for Capt. Marvel to fight in the next movie??? Whatever...

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56 minutes ago, sexy_shapiro said:

“Origin story” is just shorthand for saying it’s the first full movie featuring a certain character. Let’s not be pedantic when it comes to comic book and superhero movies. I can’t think of anything less worthwhile to get pedantic about.

 

I think there's an argument for the distinction. The issue that all super hero origin movies have is that you have to spend a not insignificant amount of time with the character pre-superhero while also providing their post-superhero persona enough time to embrace those powers and overcome whatever obstacle they're facing.

 

Movies like Spider-Man and Black Panther never have to bother retreading that learning to be super phase. EvenThor, who starts the movie as a god, goes through his understanding power phase in his origin movie. It's a tried and true and often boring trope. Captain Marvel tried to get around this, but still wound up leaning into that same understanding their power trope.

 

When a movie does manage that step entirely around the origin, just leaving the audience to understand that they've been super for a while; you end up with something closer to a sequel without the baggage of explaining their powers.

 

All that said, I'm going with Black Panther as an origin since it still ends up leaning on that understanding power trope when he loses his strength and status. Spider-Man also tried really hard to skip that trope and ends up falling backwards into it by having Peter lose his cool Stark-made suit taking him down a notch.

 

Guardians is really the only MCU movie that really managed to just toss origins out the window with no abandon.

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Guardians origin story is the origin of how their team formed 

 

theyre doing their own thing, group up, have growing pains, and overcome their mutual enemy 

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8 hours ago, johnny said:

Have you ever spoken to people who discuss superhero movies? 

 

Most friends in real life like talking about abouut this shit while also being aware that at the end of the day none of this shit matters. This healthy relationship to have with the pop culture and entertainment we consume.

 

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8 hours ago, johnny said:

Guardians origin story is the origin of how their team formed 

 

theyre doing their own thing, group up, have growing pains, and overcome their mutual enemy 

 

 

agreed. I don't think they even mention anything about that character's power origin, other than Rocket screaming he didn't ask to be made this way. 

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12 hours ago, johnny said:

I don’t think characters that were introduced in other movies count as true origin stories. We already knew who Spider-Man and Black Panther were in this world before their movies. 

 

Except . . . 

 

11 hours ago, sexy_shapiro said:

“Origin story” is just shorthand for saying it’s the first full movie featuring a certain character. Let’s not be pedantic when it comes to comic book and superhero movies. I can’t think of anything less worthwhile to get pedantic about.

 

This. 

 

10 hours ago, Ghost_MH said:

 

I think there's an argument for the distinction. The issue that all super hero origin movies have is that you have to spend a not insignificant amount of time with the character pre-superhero while also providing their post-superhero persona enough time to embrace those powers and overcome whatever obstacle they're facing.

 

Movies like Spider-Man and Black Panther never have to bother retreading that learning to be super phase. EvenThor, who starts the movie as a god, goes through his understanding power phase in his origin movie. It's a tried and true and often boring trope. Captain Marvel tried to get around this, but still wound up leaning into that same understanding their power trope.

 

When a movie does manage that step entirely around the origin, just leaving the audience to understand that they've been super for a while; you end up with something closer to a sequel without the baggage of explaining their powers.

 

All that said, I'm going with Black Panther as an origin since it still ends up leaning on that understanding power trope when he loses his strength and status. Spider-Man also tried really hard to skip that trope and ends up falling backwards into it by having Peter lose his cool Stark-made suit taking him down a notch.

 

Guardians is really the only MCU movie that really managed to just toss origins out the window with no abandon.

 

No one really knew who MCU-specific Spider-Man was as a character, person, etc. and definitely most people knew nothing about Black Panther based off of Captain America: Civil War. For all intents and purposes for the MCU, these films are the "origin" story films of these characters because even if audiences know their origin stories (which few did for Black Panther since no film had come out about him before) these films still cover a lot of the same ground. 

 

These movies are these characters' first solo outings each respectively and had only made cameos previously (essentially). I think adding them to the discussion makes the rankings more interesting, not less, so I say count em. 

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I honestly wasn't trying to be pedantic when I mentioned the difference between a solo movie and an origin story. I thought that origin stories were very specific things... stories that went in depth telling you who a character was and how they came to be and what exactly their powers and abilities were. I thought  that was why in every review that talked about Spiderman Homecoming at the time it came out, they lauded it for not retreading his origin story for the millionth time because the filmmakers assumed that after five previous movies (six if you count his first appearance in the MCU in Captain America Civil War) several recent animated series and video games and COUNTLESS comic books over the past 50 years, the public knew his origin well enough and they wanted to jump right into this particular story and they were right. 

 

Black Panther IS an origin story... but it's just as much Killmonger's origin story  as it is T'challa's if not more so. I talk about movies with my real life friends too and we don't get into too much into it either, I would say we also have a "healthy relationship" with the pop culture we consume. We also have healthy relationships with the English language and what words actually mean so when someone uses a word or term incorrectly or in a way I'm not used to, forgive me if I question that a little bit.

 

If we want to use the term "Origin" as shorthand for a character's solo movie outing regardless of the fact that their actual origin may or may not be part of the story, that's fine. I'll add "origin" to the growing list of words that have different meanings on these boards along with "violence" and others.  So I'll revise my list

 

Iron Man

Guardians of The Galaxy

Black Panther

Dr Strange

Captain America First Avenger

Spiderman: Homecoming

Ant Man

Captain Marvel

Thor

The Incredible Hulk

 

I enjoyed Captain Marvel and maybe my mind will change after I see it a second time, but right now it's not the BEST Marvel movie. Like I said above, I actually think Wonder Woman and Aquaman are better movies.

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Regardless of whatever the particulars of the term “origin story” mean, Homecoming and Black Panther spend a good amount of their runtime establishing the core motivations of the characters in a way that their brief time in Civil War did not and their subsequent films won’t have to.

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The problem is that origin stories have become so formulaic that any movie that strays from the formula in some significant way doesn’t seem like a true origin movie.

 

If Thor is an origin movie then so is Black Panther. Both are about royalty that are inherited with powers but we see them learn to become worthy of being a leader. We are the origin of them becoming leaders. The focus is more on the internal and not the external.

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20 minutes ago, sexy_shapiro said:

The problem is that origin stories have become so formulaic that any movie that strays from the formula in some significant way doesn’t seem like a true origin movie.

 

If Thor is an origin movie then so is Black Panther. Both are about royalty that are inherited with powers but we see them learn to become worthy of being a leader. We are the origin of them becoming leaders. The focus is more on the internal and not the external.

 

You seem to be confusing an "Origin" with an "Arc" but okay... like I said, the term can mean whatever you guys want it to mean. This board exists in it's own parallel reality and I forget that sometimes.

 

Thor's movie works as an origin because it shows the origin of him as an earthbound hero. He went from being a head strong rebellious god to a mortal who learned humility and the worth of mortals that he didn't give a shit about before that. It's his origin as hero. Not as a person and he's not the leader of anything at the end of his first movie.

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21 minutes ago, skillzdadirecta said:

You seem to be confusing an "Origin" with an "Arc"

These are not mutually exclusive concepts. Sexy Ben is describing what he sees as the character arc in the origin stories of the two characters.

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18 minutes ago, sblfilms said:

These are not mutually exclusive concepts. Sexy Ben is describing what he sees as the character arc in the origin stories of the two characters.

 

No they aren't but WHAT he's describing isn't the origin of those characters... it's their arcs in those particular films. In Thor's case it isn't even accurate because Thor does not "become a leader" at the end of the first movie. He learns humility, becomes worthy to lift his hammer again and becomes a hero  in the true sense of the word. T'challa learns to become a better ruler by acknowledging the mistakes of the past and forging ahead on his own path. The true origin story in Black Panther is Killmonger's which is why he's often cited as one of the Marvel U's more stand out villains.  But again, I'm not gonna derail the thread anymore... any superhero movie that features a single character for the first time falls under the dayonepatch movie board's definition of an origin story so I'll just go with that moving forward :peace:

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2 minutes ago, skillzdadirecta said:

 

No they aren't but WHAT he's describing isn't the origin of those characters... it's their arcs in those particular films. In Thor's case it isn't even accurate because Thor does not "become a leader" at the end of the first movie. He learns humility, becomes worthy to lift his hammer again and becomes a hero  in the true sense of the word. But again, I'm not gonna derail the thread anymore... any superhero movie that features a single character for the first time falls under the dayonepatch movie board's definition of an origin story so I'll just go with that moving forward :peace:

 

I may have missed it, but what is your one sentence definition of an origin story?

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I really just came in here to say that you’re all fucking insane for having the Ed Norton Hulk movie below Thor. :p 

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Most of this thread is about the stupid "controversy" surrounding the film before the release and now one of the most pedantic arguments of all time.

 

Good job, guys.

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1 hour ago, skillzdadirecta said:

 

You seem to be confusing an "Origin" with an "Arc" but okay... like I said, the term can mean whatever you guys want it to mean. This board exists in it's own parallel reality and I forget that sometimes.

 

Thor's movie works as an origin because it shows the origin of him as an earthbound hero. He went from being a head strong rebellious god to a mortal who learned humility and the worth of mortals that he didn't give a shit about before that. It's his origin as hero. Not as a person and he's not the leader of anything at the end of his first movie.

 

Nope, I’m not getting sucked into this useless debate. :)

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