Television Finished Better Call Saul.

[Bacon]

Old Title: I find myself often willing to look the other way when it comes to the more deplorable actions a Main Character can perform.

 

You know. They are the main character. We, I, can often see the world through their eyes and it makes why they do come across as less bad. Like, sure, what they did was bad but they are the main character after all. Oh, the antagonist is doing the same thing? Totally unforgivable. 

 

Anyway, started watching Breaking Bad recently. It is impossible to look the other way. 

[Bloodporne]

Nothing I've thought through but I wanna say it's probably because the protagonist/anti-hero, whatever, has more fleshed-out motivations and a richer inner life we're privy to so we can see the roads that lead to those actions clearer. Probably how we can justify all kinds of bad behavior in ourselves and often only see it when it's put in front of us as a recap later on by an outside party or after some self-reflection and so on. It's often a lot less clear that you're engaging in questionable behavior when you see all the tiny moments that brought you there instead of just having the end result to judge. I sure as hell know I've been very guilty of this, especially in my younger years. 

[Mr.Vic20]

Your revilement of Walter White is exactly what Vince Gillian wanted, but feared would not happen. You are watching the show correctly. 

[Bloodporne]

4 minutes ago, Mr.Vic20 said:

Your revilement of Walter White is exactly what Vince Gillian wanted, but feared would not happen. You are watching the show correctly. 

Yeah I forgot to comment on the actual Breaking Bad/Walter angle. Walter White is like a supervillain origin story where at first you think hey yeah, you know what, live a little guy! Then it just keeps getting worse...and worse...and suddenly you wanna punch your TV because he's such a heinous cunt. 

[Keyser_Soze]

Skyler totally overreacted know what I mean?

 

At the same time my friend's dad thought the whole idea of the show was disgusting when I told him about it and refused to see it

[Greatoneshere]

3 hours ago, Mr.Vic20 said:

Your revilement of Walter White is exactly what Vince Gillian wanted, but feared would not happen. You are watching the show correctly. 

 

Exactly this. As I mentioned in the Better Call Saul thread, Vince Gilligan was so disappointed that MAGA chuds thought Walter White was a hero who needed to "win" and "get all the money" and "beat everybody" and that his wife sucks for, ya know, being against entering into crime with drug cartels selling drugs. So for Better Call Saul, every scene with Walter White is excruciating, which is the character. Do not cheer for Tony Soprano, Walter White, Tyler Durden, Joker, Ed Norton in American History X, Daemon in House of the Dragon, whatever it is.

 

I have never had a problem disliking the protagonist of something. Just because you're making them more complex by making them more villainous doesn't mean I'm gonna be on their side. Explanations are not justifications for any person's or character's actions. Doesn't mean I can't find them compelling and keep watching. Finding a character compelling is very different to me than looking the other way or not.

[Mercury33]

Breaking Bad is interesting for me. Like I said in the other show, I love villains like Patrick Bateman, Bill the Butcher and Daemon. But I couldn’t get past episode 3 of Breaking Bad because I just genuinely was turned off by how awful every character was. There wasn’t anyone I wanted to root for. 

[TheLeon]

I don’t really think about this too much. It’s one of the fun things about fiction: you can be on the side of bad people. 

[skillzdadirecta]

It was always hilarious to me to see folks actually rooting for Walter White and later on Saul Goodman. Both characters are pieces of shit. Compelling pieces of shit, but pieces of shit nontheless. No wonder Gilligan says he wants to write a "good guy" next. I see people trying to justify/defend the actions of both characters and I'm like "You're missing the whole point of the show!" Just like the guys I grew up with who OBSSESSED over Scarface. I was like "I guess you guys just turned the movie off before the ending, huh?" 

[BloodyHell]

I mean, a bunch of people still think Jax Teller is a hero. Walter White is beloved. Humans aren't that complex, we like characters who entertain us, and do things we would never consider. I don't think it says anything about moral character, because it's always the least moral people trying to stop others from watching that content.

[Chairslinger]

3 hours ago, BloodyHell said:

I mean, a bunch of people still think Jax Teller is a hero. Walter White is beloved. Humans aren't that complex, we like characters who entertain us, and do things we would never consider. I don't think it says anything about moral character, because it's always the least moral people trying to stop others from watching that content.

 

 

Fuck man, of all the '10's antiheroes that became so popular Jax may be my most disliked. I totally agree with you.

 

There are straight up villains that I find more sympathetic than little Prince Jaxxy with his alpha dude bro faux depth using phrases like "calm intensity"! Little prince Jax who gets to decide everyone that lives and dies based on his moving target of what is right and wrong.

 

Oh, and while we are on the topic, Shane was not "right". Shane was an emotionally erratic egomaniac who couldn't just rub one out, calm the fuck down, and accept that his month long fling with another guy's wife didn't trump their years long marriage and having a kid together.

 

Any "this is the way the world is now!" reality that Shane might have stumbled upon was totally by accident. He was just using that shit as a juvenile way to make him look like the guy Laurie should pick.

[Bacon]

omg all these spoilers

jk I know a lot of the major plot points but zero details 

 

Like, I've known of the I fucked spoiler name bit since it happened. 

 

[Bacon]

I've seen bits and pieces of this show before. I had thought Walt Jr. an annoying pest. 

It is crazy how he is just a good kid who is doing his best. 

[Greatoneshere]

On 9/16/2022 at 7:24 PM, Chairslinger said:

 

 

Fuck man, of all the '10's antiheroes that became so popular Jax may be my most disliked. I totally agree with you.

 

There are straight up villains that I find more sympathetic than little Prince Jaxxy with his alpha dude bro faux depth using phrases like "calm intensity"! Little prince Jax who gets to decide everyone that lives and dies based on his moving target of what is right and wrong.

 

Oh, and while we are on the topic, Shane was not "right". Shane was an emotionally erratic egomaniac who couldn't just rub one out, calm the fuck down, and accept that his month long fling with another guy's wife didn't trump their years long marriage and having a kid together.

 

Any "this is the way the world is now!" reality that Shane might have stumbled upon was totally by accident. He was just using that shit as a juvenile way to make him look like the guy Laurie should pick.

 

I really enjoyed Sons of Anarchy and Charlie Hunnam did a great job but Jax, while originally a good guy, became a piece of shit as time went on.

[Bacon]

holy fuckin' shit 

 

Lily of the Valley 

[5timechamp]

…so at what point did anyone turn against Michael Corleone in the Godfather films? or was he always the lesser evil of his world?

 

… was Scarface problematic at any point?

 

… I will admit to wanting Neil to succeed in Heat as well as Dr Lector escaping

 

 

honestly I have a greater dislike for the overly virtuous heroes who are damn near perfect whenever they save the day…

 

Its why I enjoyed the adventures of Jack Bauer, he loses a lot and suffers greatly before taking incomplete victories…. Still Audrey Raines dying was pure Bullshit!

 

[Greatoneshere]

10 hours ago, 5timechamp said:

…so at what point did anyone turn against Michael Corleone in the Godfather films? or was he always the lesser evil of his world?

 

… was Scarface problematic at any point?

 

… I will admit to wanting Neil to succeed in Heat as well as Dr Lector escaping

 

honestly I have a greater dislike for the overly virtuous heroes who are damn near perfect whenever they save the day…

 

I'm with you about overly virtuous heroes - though a great counter example to that is Captain America, who was one of my favorite MCU heroes. You can make a good character complex by having them make mistakes, etc. but that doesn't mean you need to make them more villainous in the process. You can, but that's probably when the audience should begin turning on the character then. As to your questions, Michael Corleone was the lesser evil presented in that world. I'm not necessarily "cheering" for anyone in those films, I more find the world and grey moral values these people live by fascinating to watch, but I'm not pumping my fist in joy at anything Michael Corleone does. Scarface is 100% problematic. Again, that's the world of that movie, but yes, Scarface is a bad guy. 

 

Heat, I mean, again, the characters are very compelling but am I rooting for Val Kilmer's violent gambling addict who mistreats his wife and family? Is it a good look when De Niro forces the wife to go back to Kilmer for his own ends? I was personally not rooting for anyone in Heat either - I guess Pacino, but he's so broken by the world that you want him to care again, which I guess is sort of rooting for him. And I did not want Lector to escape either. Now, is that a super interesting plot twist? Absolutely. Am I happy a super smart horrific serial killer cannibal is on the loose, obsessed with this young woman? No.  

[skillzdadirecta]

11 hours ago, 5timechamp said:

…so at what point did anyone turn against Michael Corleone in the Godfather films? or was he always the lesser evil of his world?

 

… was Scarface problematic at any point?

 

… I will admit to wanting Neil to succeed in Heat as well as Dr Lector escaping

 

 

honestly I have a greater dislike for the overly virtuous heroes who are damn near perfect whenever they save the day…

 

Its why I enjoyed the adventures of Jack Bauer, he loses a lot and suffers greatly before taking incomplete victories…. Still Audrey Raines dying was pure Bullshit!

 

I think folks definitely turned against Michael by the end of Godfather 2. Godfather 3 cements this by portraying him as a man full of regrets who has gained the world, but lost his family. He ends the movie sad and alone after losing the one thing he loved most. His daughter.

 

And Hannibal Lechter... I can't see anybody really rooting for him. There's absolutely nothing redeeming about him besides the fact that he's brilliant.  He's Joker level crazy.

 

Admittedly I did root for Neil McCauley in Heat despite the fact he was a bad guy. One of the few movie bad guys I actually rooted for. He lost because he couldn't obey his own credo though.

[Bacon]

I am wondering if I am crazy or if the writers really are that good.

Walt, in the course of the show has shown that he likes his coffee black with sugar and his drinks with no ice. 

Well, Hank, has served Walt coffee with cream and alcohol on the rocks. I can't tell if these are amazing subtle details or just random. 

[skillzdadirecta]

1 hour ago, Bacon said:

I am wondering if I am crazy or if the writers really are that good.

Walt, in the course of the show has shown that he likes his coffee black with sugar and his drinks with no ice. 

Well, Hank, has served Walt coffee with cream and alcohol on the rocks. I can't tell if these are amazing subtle details or just random. 

They are really that good. They pay attention to detail to an amazing degree.

[Bacon]

Finished this. I can understand why some consider this the greatest show ever. It is pretty darn good. I'm don't know if I would call it my favorite, but their ain't much better for sure. 

 

One of the, I guess, bad things about the show would be the amount of happenstance and luck/bad luck. Almost Deus Ex Machina kind of stuff. Like the keys in the visor or the book Hank found. Maybe there was some kind of precedent for those events that I missed but there is a fair amount of that kind of stuff and it always stuck out to me. Oh, and including how Walt died to his own plan. I mean, I think it was said that Walt would get himself killed, but the fact that it was then and there was like, "yeah, oh-kay, alright." Like, he didn't expect to make it, but he could have. It does feel slightly like the writers wanted Walt to die there instead of it seeming natural. It was still a good ending tho.

 

Another thing is just Walt's constant weirdness and shiftiness. Well, it actually applies to a bunch of characters at times including Hank. It is like either the people around them are just ignoring their sudden bout of weirdness or they really can't tell when it is painfully obvious. Part of the problem is how sometimes people do realize something is wrong when they aren't acting any differently. Maybe people really are just ignoring it as part of the show's theme. Even Jesse's constant window rattling parties magically never had the cops show up after a noise complaint. IDK, to me it was weird how people weren't just like, "wtf is wrong with you, man?" 

 

The movie was unnecessary. A ridiculous amount of torture/suffering porn. I understand that people wanted to see Jesse safe and see get better closure, but was totally fine with how the show did it. Not only was Jesse freed from captivity, but free of Walt who was his real captor. Jesse would never truly be free if Walt lived. Of course, the show had to end on Walt, but that scene where Jesse is in Alaska, could have been like a post credits scene of the show and I would have gotten just as much out of that as I did the entire movie. Everything in-between leaving in the El Camino to Arriving in Alaska was totally unnecessary. Like, breaking bad could have just ended with this here and the movie wouldn't have been "needed". 

 

 

That is all minor stuff really. The show really is brilliant. Pretty much a Master Piece with only the above flaws, imo. 10/10. 5*

 

I'll watch Saul soon, but I know the creator might make a show about a good guy next. I am slightly worried such a show will feel like a never ending version of El Camino, where the Hero's existence is suffering and that isn't something I'm about. 

[Bacon]

Also, Skinny Pete giving Jesse his Beanie got me teary eyed and was the highlight of the movie for me.

Fucker had some good ass friends. 

[Bloodporne]

@Bacon I have yet to see El Camino, in fact I'm planning on not really watching it because it just doesn't seem vital, but I can tell you that Better Call Saul is anything but superfluous. I still haven't finished that show but the three seasons I did see never made me stop and even consider it in competition with Breaking Bad or anything, it stands on its own as far as I'm concerned. It actually feels like the logical next step after BB in terms of writing, cinematography and so on. 

 

I'm about to actually start BCS from scratch because I lost the thread after S3 due to just life shit. 

[best3444]

Never seen one episode of this. I may have to watch. 

[Bacon]

9 minutes ago, Bloodporne said:

I have yet to see El Camino, in fact I'm planning on not really watching it because it just doesn't seem vital, but I can tell you that Better Call Saul is anything but superfluous.

Oh yeah, I have never thought that way about BCS. I have seen exactly one episode of BCS and I have seen it twice because it was so damn good. I have no clue what season it is so I won't get into spoilers, but it involves Chuck and a courtroom. Holy fuck was that some good shit. 

[Bacon]

5 minutes ago, best3444 said:

Never seen one episode of this. I may have to watch. 

As someone who waited this long, and with BCS being over, now is a great time to start. I recommend it if you have ever been interested. I feel now is the time to go all in. I say this because everything is now on Netflix. Maybe one day in the future it won't be but it is for now so you might as well watch it before it has a chance to be gone. 

[best3444]

Just now, Bacon said:

As someone who waited this long, and with BCS being over, now is a great time to start. I recommend it if you have ever been interested. I feel now is the time to go all in. 

 

Well I need something to watch. I was going to go with Ozark but your praise for this is impressive. 

[Bacon]

2 minutes ago, best3444 said:

 

Well I need something to watch. I was going to go with Ozark but your praise for this is impressive. 

I have a nonsensical dislike for Jason Bateman so I totally say watch BB over Ozark.

[skillzdadirecta]

2 hours ago, Bloodporne said:

@Bacon I have yet to see El Camino, in fact I'm planning on not really watching it because it just doesn't seem vital, but I can tell you that Better Call Saul is anything but superfluous. I still haven't finished that show but the three seasons I did see never made me stop and even consider it in competition with Breaking Bad or anything, it stands on its own as far as I'm concerned. It actually feels like the logical next step after BB in terms of writing, cinematography and so on. 

 

I'm about to actually start BCS from scratch because I lost the thread after S3 due to just life shit. 

El Camino is NOT superflous at all when you watch all three shows. Look at it like this... Breaking Bad wraps up Walt's story. El Camino wraps up Jesse's story and Better Call Saul fills out and wraps up Saul's story. All work in the context of the universe.

[Greatoneshere]

30 minutes ago, skillzdadirecta said:

El Camino is NOT superflous at all when you watch all three shows. Look at it like this... Breaking Bad wraps up Walt's story. El Camino wraps up Jesse's story and Better Call Saul fills out and wraps up Saul's story. All work in the context of the universe.

 

This. I thought El Camino was great, super tense, with a wonderful denoument. But in no way is it superfluous if you care at all about Jesse's story and the fallout from the end of Breaking Bad.

[Bloodporne]

1 hour ago, skillzdadirecta said:

El Camino is NOT superflous at all when you watch all three shows. Look at it like this... Breaking Bad wraps up Walt's story. El Camino wraps up Jesse's story and Better Call Saul fills out and wraps up Saul's story. All work in the context of the universe.

 

43 minutes ago, Greatoneshere said:

 

This. I thought El Camino was great, super tense, with a wonderful denoument. But in no way is it superfluous if you care at all about Jesse's story and the fallout from the end of Breaking Bad.

I was going off several of my friends who I often watch shows with saying they thought it was kind of whatever. But I mean, it's not gonna hurt none so I'll just watch it. I've been swayed by the D1P gang 😮

[Bacon]

Yeah, I still think the movie is mostly torture/suffering porn. I don't feel it was really necessary. I care about Jesse's story, but it was obvious enough how bad his captivity was at the end of BB. I do like the ending of the movie of course, but that is really all that is needed for the finale of Jesse's story. Just attach that clip to the end of the last episode and you'd get a good ending for Jesse. 

[Greatoneshere]

2 minutes ago, Bacon said:

Yeah, I still think the movie is mostly torture/suffering porn. I don't feel it was really necessary. I care about Jesse's story, but it was obvious enough how bad his captivity was at the end of BB. I do like the ending of the movie of course, but that is really all that is needed for the finale of Jesse's story. Just attach that clip to the end of the last episode and you'd get a good ending for Jesse. 

 

I disagree - the movie shows how self-sufficient and more understanding of the criminal underworld Jesse now has. What was torture porn about the movie? Being held captive in the last season seems worse to me.

[skillzdadirecta]

10 minutes ago, Greatoneshere said:

 

I disagree - the movie shows how self-sufficient and more understanding of the criminal underworld Jesse now has. What was torture porn about the movie? Being held captive in the last season seems worse to me.

Also I think on a thematic level, Jess is the only one who "Gets away" at the end because he's actually punsihed for everything he's done up to that point unlike Walt and Saul. Walt and Saul were free while they were on the run but got their comeuppance later. Jesse WASN'T free and kinda went through hell and was reborn in a pseudo-religious sense. You actually WANT him to get away at the end and he does... Walt and Saul never paid for their crimes until the VERY end of their stories. Walt with his death and Saul with his freedom. Jesse paid for his crimes and THEN some. He deserved his freedom at that point.

[Greatoneshere]

1 minute ago, skillzdadirecta said:

Also I think on a thematic level, Jess is the only one who "Gets away" at the end because he's actually punsihed for everything he's done up to that point unlike Walt and Saul. Walt and Saul were free while they were on the run but got their comeuppance later. Jesse WASN'T free and kinda went through hell and was reborn in a pseudo-religious sense. You actually WANT him to get away at the end and he does... Walt and Saul never paid for their crimes until the VERY end of their stories. Walt with his death and Saul with his freedom.

 

Agreed. Plus, there's some badass shit in the movie too, I dug it. Tense thrill ride to me.