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Shooting at Jacksonville leaves 4 dead, 11 injured

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Commissar SFLUFAN

Commissar SFLUFAN

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2 minutes ago, mclumber1 said:

I really appreciate the President's twitter thread on the Jacksonville shooting.  Although some of you may not agree with his politics, he truly showed a lot of heart and courage in the series of tweets regarding the dead and the survivors of the horrific event. 

Probably his best work so far!

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BuckFly

BuckFly

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18 minutes ago, SFLUFAN said:

Probably his best work so far!

On a day like today I feel like a f***ing idiot for starting a thread last week complaining about my xbox wifi.

 

Man, the things we perseverate  over is ridiculous.  Time to refocus, again, on what's important.

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mclumber1

mclumber1

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This guy was a resident of Maryland from what I understand.  If that is the case, for one to legally buy or own a pistol, you have to undergo a background check and complete a gun safety course.  Upon successful completion of the bgc and safety course, the state may then issue a handgun qualification license, which will then allow you to buy, transfer, or possess a pistol.  I'm pretty sure you have to pass another background check at the time of purchase as well, even with the handgun license.  It's not known if he also had a concealed weapons permit (or the Maryland equivalent), and as far as I can tell, Florida would not honor Maryland's permit anyways. 

 

Maryland also has a registry for all handguns in the state.  There is also universal background checks on all private party sales.  

 

So I'm not sure what gun control law would have actually prevented this guy from doing what he did. 

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Guest

Guest

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30 minutes ago, mclumber1 said:

So I'm not sure what gun control law would have actually prevented this guy from doing what he did. 

 

Probably the ones that prevent this sort of thing from happening in literally the entire rest of the civilized world.

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mclumber1

mclumber1

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2 minutes ago, sblfilms said:

 

Probably the ones that prevent this sort of thing from happening in literally the entire rest of the civilized world.

 

The rest of the civilized world?  Most of Europe and Canada allows pistol ownership, albeit with tighter licensing standards than most US states.  I would be surprised if Katz would have been denied a pistol license (or the country's equivalent)  in Canada or France.

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Greatoneshere

Greatoneshere

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20 minutes ago, mclumber1 said:

 

The rest of the civilized world?  Most of Europe and Canada allows pistol ownership, albeit with tighter licensing standards than most US states.  I would be surprised if Katz would have been denied a pistol license (or the country's equivalent)  in Canada or France.

 

He's talking about the country's narrative on guns which influences people across the country. Limitation and aversion to guns are good teaching tools here. It's not about what's allowed elsewhere and what isn't (though it is important to look there for the legal side of how to legislate our own gun problems). But the bigger problem is how okay and sanitized gun use is. 

 

I'm not per se against guns flat out, but America has a problem, and to point out that in this case there was no way to catch him with current Maryland (or otherwise) gun laws ignores how bad our laws are, not just the people like David Katz. 

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mclumber1

mclumber1

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2 minutes ago, Greatoneshere said:

 

He's talking about the country's narrative on guns which influences people across the country. Limitation and aversion to guns are good teaching tools here. It's not about what's allowed elsewhere and what isn't (though it is important to look there for the legal side of how to legislate our own gun problems). But the bigger problem is how okay and sanitized gun use is. 

 

I'm not per se against guns flat out, but America has a problem, and to point out that in this case there was no way to catch him with current Maryland (or otherwise) gun laws ignores how bad our laws are, not just the people like David Katz. 

 

Opinion: I believe that the 94 AWB cranked up the gun culture to 11.  While before the legislation was passed, there might be  *some* die hard gun people, the AWB bred a whole new generation of gun proponents.  By vilifying gun culture and passing stricter gun control laws that are easily circumvented, you create a counter-culture around them.  The harder you push, the more resistance you'll encounter.  

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Greatoneshere

Greatoneshere

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Just now, mclumber1 said:

 

Opinion: I believe that the 94 AWB cranked up the gun culture to 11.  While before the legislation was passed, there might be  *some* die hard gun people, the AWB bred a whole new generation of gun proponents.  By vilifying gun culture and passing stricter gun control laws that are easily circumvented, you create a counter-culture around them.  The harder you push, the more resistance you'll encounter.  

 

I certainly see that being a major contributing factor. As a major gun user/owner who understands that world far better than I do - real, reasonable solutions from your POV? Because the culture has to change, clearly, in this country, toward guns. The laws too. 

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skillzdadirecta

skillzdadirecta

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Damn I just found out my girlfriend new the family of one of the kids that got killed. Apparently he's from out here in California, Woodland Hills to be exact. Crazy shit.

 

11 minutes ago, mclumber1 said:

 

Opinion: I believe that the 94 AWB cranked up the gun culture to 11.  While before the legislation was passed, there might be  *some* die hard gun people, the AWB bred a whole new generation of gun proponents.  By vilifying gun culture and passing stricter gun control laws that are easily circumvented, you create a counter-culture around them.  The harder you push, the more resistance you'll encounter.  

 

We've had gun control in this country before though... In the frontier times when new towns would settle and open for business, they would ban folks from wearing guns in town because of all the killings and shootings. Also during prohibition when gangland killings with Tommy Guns were common place, we banned those guns. What happened with the Assault weapons ban, was in the 90's you had the rise of talk radio which fed into this notion of "The Government is trying to take your guns so they can take your freedom." That along with race baiting politicians playing to the fears of white people and a gun lobby that was financing all of this led to where we are today. Guns have become an identity symbol for some folks in this country and no matter how many school shootings we have, they will not let them go willingly. NATION.OF. IDIOTS.

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mclumber1

mclumber1

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1 minute ago, Greatoneshere said:

 

I certainly see that being a major contributing factor. As a major gun user/owner who understands that world far better than I do - real, reasonable solutions from your POV? Because the culture has to change, clearly, in this country, toward guns. The laws too. 

 

Gun owners feel like they are being attacked.  They feel they are being attacked and their civil right is being threatened.  So gun owners push back by buying as many AR-15s and glocks as they can before the government does something more drastic.  I myself built an AR-15 earlier this year.  Partly because it was fun, and partly because I fear that the state (Oregon) or the federal government will restrict the ability to buy or build them in the near future.  

 

Many people called Obama the best gun salesman that ever existed, because there was a fear he would, along with Congress, restrict the Second Amendment.  Remove the fear that the government is going to go after the guns of the law abiding, and you largely remove the current culture of gun hoarding.  This doesn't solve the 8000-10,000 gun homicides we have every year, that will require different solutions.

 

I'm all for universal background checks, if done properly.  I think many pro-gun people are on board with that.  The biggest factors for our current gun violence problem are: the war on drugs, gangs, poverty, and education.  As a (small L) libertarian, I'm more than willing to support liberal solutions to those issues, but I'm not willing to erode the Second Amendment.  

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skillzdadirecta

skillzdadirecta

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1 minute ago, mclumber1 said:

 

Gun owners feel like they are being attacked.  They feel they are being attacked and their civil right is being threatened.  So gun owners push back by buying as many AR-15s and glocks as they can before the government does something more drastic.  I myself built an AR-15 earlier this year.  Partly because it was fun, and partly because I fear that the state (Oregon) or the federal government will restrict the ability to buy or build them in the near future.  

 

Many people called Obama the best gun salesman that ever existed, because there was a fear he would, along with Congress, restrict the Second Amendment.  Remove the fear that the government is going to go after the guns of the law abiding, and you largely remove the current culture of gun hoarding.  This doesn't solve the 8000-10,000 gun homicides we have every year, that will require different solutions.

 

I'm all for universal background checks, if done properly.  I think many pro-gun people are on board with that.  The biggest factors for our current gun violence problem are: the war on drugs, gangs, poverty, and education.  As a (small L) libertarian, I'm more than willing to support liberal solutions to those issues, but I'm not willing to erode the Second Amendment.  

 

How exactly do you do that when these folks equate "gun regulation" with "You're trying to take my guns away". Answer: You can't.  The paranoid will always think there's someone out to get them even when there isn't anyone there. and the biggest factor in our gun violence problem is access to guns. Plenty of other Western countries have the same issues we do but they don't have the same gun violence problem because they don't have the same access to guns.

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mclumber1

mclumber1

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8 minutes ago, skillzdadirecta said:

 

How exactly do you do that when these folks equate "gun regulation" with "You're trying to take my guns away". Answer: You can't.  The paranoid will always think there's someone out to get them even when there isn't anyone there. and the biggest factor in our gun violence problem is access to guns. Plenty of other Western countries have the same issues we do but they don't have the same gun violence problem because they don't have the same access to guns.

 

Its super easy, because you have a number of current Democratic lawmakers, past lawmakers, and pundits arguing to do exactly that.  Every time there is a mass shooting you have the likes of Rolling Stone and The Young Turks saying it's time to get rid of the Second Amendment.  You have  Giffords arguing that something needs to be done (in relation to the Jacksonville shooting) - even though the types of gun control that most liberals would consider could legislation, failed to stop this chucklefuck from killing people. 

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skillzdadirecta

skillzdadirecta

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12 minutes ago, mclumber1 said:

 

Its super easy, because you have a number of current Democratic lawmakers, past lawmakers, and pundits arguing to do exactly that.  Every time there is a mass shooting you have the likes of Rolling Stone and The Young Turks saying it's time to get rid of the Second Amendment.  You have  Giffords arguing that something needs to be done (in relation to the Jacksonville shooting) - even though the types of gun control that most liberals would consider could legislation, failed to stop this chucklefuck from killing people. 

 

The Giffords... are you referring to the woman who was SHOT IN THE HEAD? How dare she call for gun control or regulation.

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Greatoneshere

Greatoneshere

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20 minutes ago, skillzdadirecta said:

 

The Giffords... are you referring to the woman who was SHOT IN THE HEAD? How dare she call for gun control or regulation.

 

I think mclumber's point isn't that there are calls for gun control/regulation in general, but that certain members in far left groups like The Young Turks (which is true) are not just calling for gun control/regulation, but a repeal of the second amendment. To be fair, other members on The Young Turks do not believe we need to go that drastic. He fears that we will go too far. I think, personally, that's incredibly alarmist - change would be gradual/incremental regardless of how drastic some leftist voices might be given how glacial any change has been so far.

 

Given that our default right now is that the country is super into guns, I think worrying about the far left when most calls to action is to do anything (as opposed to something specifically far left) seems like cognitive dissonance to me, no offense @mclumber1

 

 

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skillzdadirecta

skillzdadirecta

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1 minute ago, Greatoneshere said:

 

I think mclumber's point isn't that there are calls for gun control/regulation in general, but that certain members in far left groups like The Young Turks (which is true) are not just calling for gun control/regulation, but a repeal of the second amendment. To be fair, other members on The Young Turks do not believe we need to go that drastic. He fears that we will go too far. I think, personally, that's incredibly alarmist - change would be gradual/incremental regardless of how drastic some leftist voices might be given how glacial any change has been so far.

 

Given that our default right now is that the country is super into guns, I think worrying about the far left when most calls to action is to do something seems like cognitive dissonance to me, no offense @mclumber1

 

 

 

Because it is... The people on the other side say "Gun regulations are going too far and you eventually want to take my guns away." OR "Those gun regulations you're proposing won't do anything to solve the problem anyway, so what's the point? Guns aren't the problem anyway... it's education or mental illness or unwed mothers..." or some other silly shit. Any moron can see the difference between us and other countries that don't have this problem, but we are unable to do anything about our problem because people "luv their gunz." 

 

I'm not even anti gun... I'm "pro-not-treating-guns-like-toys-or-substitute-penises."

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