Movies Doctor Strange: Multiverse of Madness to introduce [OPEN SPOILERS] into MCU

[Smith]

I was surprised we didn't get White Vision so hopefully he eventually will return.

Did people forget this scene at the end of WandaVision because this definitely shows her continuing down a very dark path.

[skillzdadirecta]

I don't get the whole "Wanda's turn was abrupt" thing when people were saying that how fucked up what she did in Wandavision was and that she got off too easy at the end of it. Also she WAS reading from The Darkhold at the end of that series. I thought this was movie was the best version of the Dark Phoenix storyline that we've seen on screen to date even though this isn't an Xmen story. I was legit surprised to see that Wanda was the main villain... so glad I avoided spoliers for this movie because there were SEVERAL pleasant surprises for me including John Krasinki's Reed Richards (Perfect casting) and Charlize Theron's Clea, also great casting. I COULD be wrong but the Incursions they're talking about COULD be setting up 

Spoiler

The Beyonder and his race

I enjoyed the movie a lot although it DOES rely on folks having seen some of the Disney plus shows including Wandavision and What if? I was legit surprised how "Raimi-esque" the movie was and it worked for me. Makes me wonder how much darker Derickson's version was. Didn't he want it to be even MORE horrific?

[Reputator]

2 hours ago, Smith said:

I was surprised we didn't get White Vision so hopefully he eventually will return.

Did people forget this scene at the end of WandaVision because this definitely shows her continuing down a very dark path.

 

No I didn't forget, I just interpreted the ending of the series as a whole as some sort of weak attempt at character redemption. I'm not a comic geek, so merely seeing her reading the Darkhold doesn't scream "evil" to me.

 

If that's all that's needed, I guess Strange is evil now too?

[EternallDarkness]

24 minutes ago, Reputator said:

 

 

If that's all that's needed, I guess Strange is evil now too?

 

possibly, which is what that initial ending was hinting at, Strange dropping to his knee in pain and then the third eye opening. The Darkhold corrupts those that use it. Of course the mid credit scene seems to indicate he has a handle on it  

[johnny]

the mid credit scene makes it seem like he does but we don’t really know. the other dr strange was corrupted. wanda was wildin out. this timelines dr strange could end up going down a path like that too eventually. 

[EternallDarkness]

9 minutes ago, johnny said:

the mid credit scene makes it seem like he does but we don’t really know. the other dr strange was corrupted. wanda was wildin out. this timelines dr strange could end up going down a path like that too eventually. 

 

No we don't know, though I rather doubt they will have him go dark. He only used it once, briefly and the introduction of Clea would kind of indicate they have some big plans for Strange. Be curious to see how much of Clea's backstory they change. Can't really see her being big D's neice considering how they portrayed him in the first movie...but who knows. 

[Kal-El814]

2 hours ago, skillzdadirecta said:

I don't get the whole "Wanda's turn was abrupt" thing when people were saying that how fucked up what she did in Wandavision was and that she got off too easy at the end of it. Also she WAS reading from The Darkhold at the end of that series. I thought this was movie was the best version of the Dark Phoenix storyline that we've seen on screen to date even though this isn't an Xmen story. I was legit surprised to see that Wanda was the main villain... so glad I avoided spoliers for this movie because there were SEVERAL pleasant surprises for me including John Krasinki's Reed Richards (Perfect casting) and Charlize Theron's Clea, also great casting. I COULD be wrong but the Incursions they're talking about COULD be setting up 

  Reveal hidden contents

The Beyonder and his race

I enjoyed the movie a lot although it DOES rely on folks having seen some of the Disney plus shows including Wandavision and What if? I was legit surprised how "Raimi-esque" the movie was and it worked for me. Makes me wonder how much darker Derickson's version was. Didn't he want it to be even MORE horrific?

 

I wish Rahul Kohli was Mr. Fantastic, as I think he could do Reed’s pathos better than Krasinski. But I cannot rule out the possibility of that being my anti-Jim bias.   I like your Dark Phoenix parallel!

 

The more I think about Wanda, the more I think she’s been treated kinda badly. Nothing she’s done likely caused as much harm as Tony’s arms dealing, or Thor’s kicking dirt at Thanos instead of killing him. They fuck around but never really find out; Tony’s death has nothing to do with his sins, it sure looks like Thor is going to get to hook up with a buff Natalie Portman, etc. Wanda watches her family die, then her brother gets killed because she was manipulated by Ultron, then she accidentally blows up some Wakandans while trying to help, then she has to kill her boyfriend, watch him get resurrected then get murdered, loses control of her emotions and enslaves a whole town, then has to essentially watch her children die after being manipulated again, then reads too much of an evil book and accidentally gets turned evil and almost destroys the multiverse? There’s a lot of real estate between “she should probably have been held accountable for Westview,” and, “she’s the MCU’s punching bag, a lady being unable to control her emotions means that people turn into extras on a sitcom / reality is almost destroyed, and once she realizes she’s a bad mommy she kills herself, which is a good thing, ultimately.”

 

To carry your Phoenix analogy further since I like it so much, if I’m remembering the comics right, it’s an independent force which dominates people. Assuming that’s right, there’s a difference between that and what seems to have happened to Wanda, where she was just corrupted but ultimately not being controlled by the Darkhold. In every appearance Strange has had, he basically makes a conscious decision to fuck with shit he shouldn’t (Dark Dimension, Time Stone, giving an entire planet Spider-roofies, reading the Darkhold, dream-walking, necromancy) and he’s fine. 

[skillzdadirecta]

2 hours ago, Kal-El814 said:

To carry your Phoenix analogy further since I like it so much, if I’m remembering the comics right, it’s an independent force which dominates people. Assuming that’s right, there’s a difference between that and what seems to have happened to Wanda, where she was just corrupted but ultimately not being controlled by the Darkhold. In every appearance Strange has had, he basically makes a conscious decision to fuck with shit he shouldn’t (Dark Dimension, Time Stone, giving an entire planet Spider-roofies, reading the Darkhold, dream-walking, necromancy) and he’s fine. 

In the original Phoenix storyline, it was basically a play on the whole "power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely" trope. There was no entity that turned Jean evil, it was just the Phoenix power amplyfying her and turning her dark. Then it was retconned that it was never Jean in the first place, it was the Phoenix itself that copied her... it got really convoluted. Wanda's arc here, mirrors her arc in the comics where her kids being revealed to be basically figments of her imagination drove her insane and led to her doing the whole dissassmebled thing where she caused the deaths of several Avengers and then decimated the mutant population. She eventually redeemed herself, but it took years. Here, Wanda is definitely corrupted by the Darkhold and the alternate Strange is as well. We've seen Strange be corrupted several times already in the MCU if you count What if's Strange and the several seen in this movie and it's an open question as to whether or not he's corrupted here. he definitely seems different in that post credit scene with Clea and given that in the comics she is

Spoiler

Dormmamu's niece and Strange's eventual Wife

We could be heading for "Dark Dr. Strange" here ourselves. That said I wasn't happy with Wanda's heel turn and really hope she gets to redeem herself especially since Elizabeth Olsen is so great in the role. Marvel REALLY nails their casting with these characters.

[Kal-El814]

18 minutes ago, skillzdadirecta said:

In the original Phoenix storyline, it was basically a play on the whole "power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely" trope. There was no entity that turned Jean evil, it was just the Phoenix power amplyfying her and turning her dark. Then it was retconned that it was never Jean in the first place, it was the Phoenix itself that copied her... it got really convoluted. Wanda's arc here, mirrors her arc in the comics where her kids being revealed to be basically figments of her imagination drove her insane and led to her doing the whole dissassmebled thing where she caused the deaths of several Avengers and then decimated the mutant population. She eventually redeemed herself, but it took years. Here, Wanda is definitely corrupted by the Darkhold and the alternate Strange is as well. We've seen Strange be corrupted several times already in the MCU if you count What if's Strange and the several seen in this movie and it's an open question as to whether or not he's corrupted here. he definitely seems different in that post credit scene with Clea and given that in the comics she is

  Reveal hidden contents

Dormmamu's niece and Strange's eventual Wife

We could be heading for "Dark Dr. Strange" here ourselves. That said I wasn't happy with Wanda's heel turn and really hope she gets to redeem herself especially since Elizabeth Olsen is so great in the role. Marvel REALLY nails their casting with these characters.

 

 

Ooooooh right, I forgot that Phoenix retcon. Hal Jordan reading those issues like: 

[skillzdadirecta]

4 minutes ago, Kal-El814 said:

 

 

Ooooooh right, I forgot that Phoenix retcon. Hal Jordan reading those issues like: 

Right, Hal Jordan was another retcon too to redeem a beloved character who went crazy and murdered damn near the whole Lantern corp. I have those issues, he personally killed Kilowog and Sinestro... no idea how all of these characters are alive again 

[Kal-El814]

14 minutes ago, skillzdadirecta said:

Right, Hal Jordan was another retcon too to redeem a beloved character who went crazy and murdered damn near the whole Lantern corp. I have those issues, he personally killed Kilowog and Sinestro... no idea how all of these characters are alive again 

 

Neither do I but I feel comfortable blaming The Flash.

[skillzdadirecta]

9 minutes ago, Kal-El814 said:

 

Neither do I but I feel comfortable blaming The Flash.

It's always The Flash.

[EternallDarkness]

3 hours ago, Kal-El814 said:

 

I wish Rahul Kohli was Mr. Fantastic,

 

and its a role he wanted so badly 

[skillzdadirecta]

3 minutes ago, EternallDarkness said:

 

and its a role he wanted so badly 

Who is this person?

[EternallDarkness]

8 minutes ago, skillzdadirecta said:

Who is this person?

 

Mostly recently you might have seen him as the sheriff on Netflix's Midnight Mass, but he's best known as Ravi from iZombie 

[skillzdadirecta]

Just now, EternallDarkness said:

 

Mostly recently you might have seen him as the sheriff on Netflix's Midnight Mass, but he's best known as Ravi from iZombie 

Oh that dude! Yeah he was awesome as the Sheriff. I could definitely see him as Reed... he and Krasinki share a lot of the same qualities to be honest.

[EternallDarkness]

Just now, skillzdadirecta said:

Oh that dude! Yeah he was awesome as the Sheriff. I could definitely see him as Reed... he and Krasinki share a lot of the same qualities to be honest.

 

He can see himself in the role as well 

 

[johnny]

That dude is great. So funny too

[Kal-El814]

Also want to shout out the post credit stinger as the best to date.

[Guest]

So I hadn’t been hearing very good reactions from customers, and I just saw the Cinemascore was another B range, just like Eternals. I wonder if Marvel may be losing a bit of its shine with the more casual fans of the films as they expand into all the D+ stuff and the multiverse. I know my wife has also lost interest in the more recent releases because there feels like too much to keep up with.

[EternallDarkness]

2 hours ago, sblfilms said:

So I hadn’t been hearing very good reactions from customers, and I just saw the Cinemascore was another B range, just like Eternals. I wonder if Marvel may be losing a bit of its shine with the more casual fans of the films as they expand into all the D+ stuff and the multiverse. I know my wife has also lost interest in the more recent releases because there feels like too much to keep up with.

 

 

This one definitely had tie-ins with the D+ series which might have left some movie only viewers a bit confused, after all the last time they saw Wanda she was a hero not a villain, but if they are aiming the MCU in the Secret Wars direction as it most definitely seems than it was kind of unavoidable. Still sadly bombing since it's closing in on 700 million. I enjoyed the movie but what I have to say it almost didn't feel as if Strange were the main character/hero of the film 

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

3 hours ago, sblfilms said:

So I hadn’t been hearing very good reactions from customers, and I just saw the Cinemascore was another B range, just like Eternals. I wonder if Marvel may be losing a bit of its shine with the more casual fans of the films as they expand into all the D+ stuff and the multiverse. I know my wife has also lost interest in the more recent releases because there feels like too much to keep up with.

 

The first three Phases of the MCU were relatively straightforward in its overarching/linked narrative, but I can easily see that this multiverse concept just won't resonate with audiences nearly as well.

[Greatoneshere]

My wife and I finally saw this movie, and while it was technically very well made, it was exhausting and mostly boring. So much stuff just happens, the movie almost never lets up, worse still, we spent most of our time with alternate universe versions of Christine Palmer and Mordo, leaving their actual character arcs from the first movie still where we left them off for the most part. It just felt like a lot of timey-wimey dimension shit and not much else. Honestly the dark Dr. Strange from What If was more interesting than the version they give us in this.

 

I'll have to see it again, but for recent releases I really like Eternals and Shang-Chi, this felt like B or C tier MCU, down with Captain Marvel or Black Widow. Fun but forgettable.

[Kal-El814]

23 hours ago, Commissar SFLUFAN said:

 

The first three Phases of the MCU were relatively straightforward in its overarching/linked narrative, but I can easily see that this multiverse concept just won't resonate with audiences nearly as well.

 

At some point too, you need to start building to… something. The first Phase or 2 (I can’t keep this shit straight) tipped its hand about the Avengers early, which teased Thanos, and that carried them all the way through Infinity War. I don’t know that you can “go back” to a buildup to… Force Works? West Coast Avengers? I don’t fucking know. And then have THAT tease the big bad for Phase Whatever-It-Will-Be-At-That-Time. Are they really gonna wait until Fantastic Four KO’s Kang or some shit to tease Galactus? There’s no “Avengers” equivalent on the future film timeline now, so who knows.

[jinx8402]

On 5/16/2022 at 4:02 PM, Kal-El814 said:

 

At some point too, you need to start building to… something. The first Phase or 2 (I can’t keep this shit straight) tipped its hand about the Avengers early, which teased Thanos, and that carried them all the way through Infinity War. I don’t know that you can “go back” to a buildup to… Force Works? West Coast Avengers? I don’t fucking know. And then have THAT tease the big bad for Phase Whatever-It-Will-Be-At-That-Time. Are they really gonna wait until Fantastic Four KO’s Kang or some shit to tease Galactus? There’s no “Avengers” equivalent on the future film timeline now, so who knows.

I think they are building multiple different story threads that might not necessarily lead to all the characters they are introducing being part of a singular finale of that arc. We are  seeing a god/cosmic arc, multiverse arc and then the lower street level arc. I just don't see where the new black widow/hawkeye/cap america really fit in with those first two arcs. So while the infinity saga had one long arc that ended with Endgame, I think we are starting to see them branch out to these multiple arcs that will have different crossovers to support each. Like I think they will introduce either west coast avengers or young avengers team, but they won't be fighting something big like a celestial  or Kang but something more grounded.

[Brick]

Saw it tonight and enjoyed it. Better than the first I thought, and the magic Strange used was more creative this time as he's getting to be a better and better sorcerer. This also had to be the most violent and bloody MCU film thus far as some of those kills were rather disturbing, but in a good way. Definitely felt like a Raimi film.

 

Spoiler

Cameos were fine even if I had a few spoiled for me because social media doesn't have a spoiler tag for some reason. I honestly don't like Krasinski as Reed Richards, not because I don't think he's a good actor, he is, but because it was a fan casting for years, and fan castings are usually just sooooo boring and safe. Just felt like fan service. If he is Richards in the 616 verse, then fine, but still would have liked someone else. I swear if Emily Blunt is Sue Storm just like the other fan castings...

 

Speaking of 616 though, I guess Mysterio just somehow knew the multiverse was real since that's the number he used and he was playing a trick. WTF? I know, weird gripe.

 

However, going back to Fantastic Four, I wonder if given Strange's line about them being from the '60s, I wonder if the actual FF movie will take place in the '60s, and maybe they time travel forward to the present day MCU. That could be fun.

 

I also wanted more Buffalo man. We were robbed.

 

[Ghost_MH]

This is on Disney+ now and I finally got to watch it. I quite enjoyed it, but I can see how this would be terribly off putting to anyone not keeping up. Wandavision is basically required viewing for this movie to make sense.

 

I was staying away from spoilers and reviews, so I was pleasantly surprised the movie felt so Raimi. I was a little scared that he'd be toned all the way down to beige.

 

Marvel is, maybe, training too long to introduce us to the big bad. I'm assuming the big bad here with be Kang as he'll be introduced in the Ant Man. I was just expecting more of a Kang tie in with the stinger.

 

Still, I enjoyed it, but I'm also really deep into the MCU and comics mythos, so nothing really left me confused or feeling like I'm failing to keep up.

[Anathema-]

Fucking loved it.

 

I don't agree with the idea that strange gets away with it or that Wanda is especially put upon. We're showed how close Strange is from fucking up many times and the catastrophic effects. We see how quickly and completely the necronomicon darkhold corrupts someone and how Wanda is good in every other instance. All this makes sense and she's not even given a villain's exit, but that of a shamed hero. It's fine. 

[Jason]

On 5/8/2022 at 3:57 PM, SuperSpreader said:

I feel like there's a better movie in there somewhere.

 

Maybe the whole thing where Raimi wasn't the original director and it was originally gonna more of a straight-up horror movie.

[Jason]

I like that the Illuminati blatantly hang out in the British Museum.

[elbobo]

I was watching the first 2/3s of this thinking "hrmmmm Raimi is really restraining himself on this movie" then there was magic fight involving musical notes and then Strange possessed his zombie corpse across dimensions and made a weapon cape out of the souls of the damned and I was 100% on board. The sould cape was one of the coolest things in the entire MCU.

[legend]

I also recently watched on D+. I think there was some fun stuff here, but ultimately fell a little flat. It didn't feel like any of the character's meaningfully grew or reflected on events. Strange sees multiple worse versions of himself that he clearly teeters on becoming, but we don't see any meaningful reflection on that. Fuck, he goes all in using the "not book of the dead" right after see what it did to another version of himself. No trepidation about it either.

 

America goes from not being able to control her powers to mastering them because Strange gave her one line of encouragement. What was the inner conflict she was battling with and how did Strange's comments actually allow her to move past it? Presumably something to do with fearing her own powers given what happened to her parents, but there's little reason for why she got past it and it was minimally explored. Her power mastery ultimately felt unearned. Contrast that with one of the best super hero movies of all time: Into Spiderverse's leap of faith scene.

 

And how about Wanda? She got the closest to having a meaningful journey in her finally cracking seeing her kids react to her, but it also was just hurried along.

 

Ultimately, there's very little setup and payoff in this move. I did enjoy the weirdness though. Musical notes battle was pretty entertaining and I loved the full Raimi zombie strange.

 

 

[skillzdadirecta]

1 hour ago, legend said:

Strange sees multiple worse versions of himself that he clearly teeters on becoming, but we don't see any meaningful reflection on that. Fuck, he goes all in using the "not book of the dead" right after see what it did to another version of himself. No trepidation about it either.

That's the question going forward right? Strange did what he did because he felt he had no choice. He also saw the worse aspects of himself... the question is can THIS Strange, let's call him Prime Strange because HE's who the movies are about, escape the fate that befell the other Stranges. I think America herself said that HE was definitely different than any other Strange she's met. I can't remember, I haven't seen the movie since it came out.

 

1 hour ago, legend said:

 

America goes from not being able to control her powers to mastering them because Strange gave her one line of encouragement. What was the inner conflict she was battling with and how did Strange's comments actually allow her to move past it? Presumably something to do with fearing her own powers given what happened to her parents, but there's little reason for why she got past it and it was minimally explored. Her power mastery ultimately felt unearned. Contrast that with one of the best super hero movies of all time: Into Spiderverse's leap of faith scene.

 America's conflict, again if I recall, was that in her mind her powers killed her parents.  Over the course of the story, she started to realize that she had more control over her powers than she thought and it took not only Strange's encouragement, but the fact that he came to help her after the OTHER Strange that she thought was her friend sold her out. All of the beats of her arc are there, whether or not they were effective depends on the viewer. Comparing this to the leap of faith scene is a little unfair because while they are both two superhero movies, they are constructed entirely differently.

 

As far as the pacing of the movie, you got me there... the movie crams a lot into its runtime but personally I think it did it about as effectively as could possibly be done. I think this was definitely one of the more well done more movies from a character development point of view and as I said earlier in this thread, it's the best adapation of the Dark Phoenix storyline that we've seen outside of the comics and it's not even an Xmen story. I strongly disagree that things felt "unearned" because as you yourself point out, all of the character beats are there. 

[Ghost_MH]

2 minutes ago, skillzdadirecta said:

That's the question going forward right? Strange did what he did because he felt he had no choice. He also saw the worse aspects of himself... the question is can THIS Strange, let's call him Prime Strange because HE's who the movies are about, escape the fate that befell the other Stranges. I think America herself said that HE was definitely different than any other Strange she's met. I can't remember, I haven't seen the movie since it came out.

 

 America's conflict, again if I recall, was that in her mind her powers killed her parents.  Over the course of the story, she started to realize that she had more control over her powers than she thought and it took not only Strange's encouragement, but the fact that he came to help her after the OTHER Strange that she thought was her friend sold her out. All of the beats of her arc are there, whether or not they were effective depends on the viewer. Comparing this to the leap of faith scene is a little unfair because while they are both two superhero movies, they are constructed entirely differently.

 

As far as the pacing of the movie, you got me there... the movie crams a lot into its runtime but personally I think it did it about as effectively as could possibly be done. I think this was definitely one of the more well done more movies from a character development point of view and as I said earlier in this thread, it's the best adapation of the Dark Phoenix storyline that we've seen outside of the comics and it's not even an Xmen story. I strongly disagree that things felt "unearned" because as you yourself point out, all of the character beats are there. 

 

Prime Strange may stand a chance since he wasn't using the Darkhold that long and it was promptly destroyed in every dimension as soon as he stopped using it. That's a fair bit different than Wanda breathing the book 24/7 for the last year or the fallen Strange who slept with the book tied to his hip for who knows how long. Still, obviously any use was enough to corrupt him, so we'll see how corrupt that left him.

 

I don't think it was done will enough, but America was always supposed to have control of her powers. That's why we got the whole conversation where Strange tells her that she always sent them to the right universe. Like I said. It was weak, but it was definitely there.

 

The movie most messed up with the stinger. You can't end with Strange screaming in agony as a third eye pops up and then stinger, he's fine with his third eye. That's just...weird. What's worse is that since the movie ends that way, it's going to leave a confusingly bad taste behind.

[skillzdadirecta]

3 minutes ago, Ghost_MH said:

 

The movie most messed up with the stinger. You can't end with Strange screaming in agony as a third eye pops up and then stinger, he's fine with his third eye. That's just...weird. What's worse is that since the movie ends that way, it's going to leave a confusingly bad taste behind.

Yeah we didn't need both stingers agreed. Either one was good but not both. It's like we missed a whole movie in between those two stingers  Clearly the second stinger was added late because of the casting of Clea, but when they did that one they should have just cut the first one.