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General Gaming Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice OT - Not 1, not 2, not 3, not 4 . . .

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2 minutes ago, Keyser_Soze said:

 

Not as bad as DSP. :talkhand:

I forgot all about him

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58 minutes ago, Keyser_Soze said:

 

You've got a strong opinion on DS games never having played one. Maybe you should play one first. :p

Yeah, you're probably right.  Every time I think about getting into them I end up deciding to play something else, because I don't get to play very often anyways and they seem like a pretty intense time commitment.

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On 3/12/2019 at 10:54 PM, ShreddieMercuryRising said:

Yeah, you're probably right.  Every time I think about getting into them I end up deciding to play something else, because I don't get to play very often anyways and they seem like a pretty intense time commitment.

Actually, Souls and Bloodborne all save constantly so they are shockingly pick-up-and-play friendly to me at least. As in, I often popped in for 30 minute bursts  to take a swing at bosses, get a handle of a particular area or similar. 

 

The games literally save constantly so you can just exit at any time and start where you were, there aren't savepoints nor checkpoints. 

 

I'm guessing you mean more that they are in-depth games with tons of lore and so forth but in reality, their core gameplay loops are fairly simple and basic. Not in a negative way but a very old school, addictive fashion. 

 

Overall, I think you'd be a bit surprised. It's more like playing a Zelda game than some intense mega-RPG in my opinion. 

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On 3/12/2019 at 7:08 PM, ShreddieMercuryRising said:

Is it supposed to be as obtuse and unforgiving as those games are?  From what I've read and seen it looks like it's easier to understand and generally less punishing.  Dark Souls and Bloodborne seem like incredible games, but I don't have the time or the motivation to replay a section over and over or not understand how anything works until I'm dozens of hours into a game.

And to clarify, I was just being a smartass because from what I've seen the game does appear to be more user-friendly yet at the same time tough as nails.

 

But like I said, I think you may have the wrong impression slightly. Their core gameplay loops and so on seriously aren't complex. There are no advanced moves to learn, no combo strings to memorize, no puzzles and so on. They're very tight, boiled-down experiences overall and you'll have just as great of a time not delving into the vast lore per say. I had no fucking clue what was going on in Dark Souls on my first playthrough and it still felt utterly magical and compelling as fuck, like you know there's a bigger picture here and you're playing archaeologist. That, in my opinion, is what makes their worlds so addictive and compelling. The environmental story-telling especially is unparalleled as far as I'm concerned. 

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7 hours ago, Bloodporne said:

Actually, Souls and Bloodborne all save constantly so they are shockingly pick-up-and-play friendly to me at least. As in, I often popped in for 30 minute bursts  to take a swing at bosses, get a handle of a particular area or similar. 

 

The games literally save constantly so you can just exit at any time and start where you were, there aren't savepoints nor checkpoints. 

 

I'm guessing you mean more that they are in-depth games with tons of lore and so forth but in reality, their core gameplay loops are fairly simple and basic. Not in a negative way but a very old school, addictive fashion. 

 

Overall, I think you'd be a bit surprised. It's more like playing a Zelda game than some intense mega-RPG in my opinion. 

 

7 hours ago, Bloodporne said:

And to clarify, I was just being a smartass because from what I've seen the game does appear to be more user-friendly yet at the same time tough as nails.

 

But like I said, I think you may have the wrong impression slightly. Their core gameplay loops and so on seriously aren't complex. There are no advanced moves to learn, no combo strings to memorize, no puzzles and so on. They're very tight, boiled-down experiences overall and you'll have just as great of a time not delving into the vast lore per say. I had no fucking clue what was going on in Dark Souls on my first playthrough and it still felt utterly magical and compelling as fuck, like you know there's a bigger picture here and you're playing archaeologist. That, in my opinion, is what makes their worlds so addictive and compelling. The environmental story-telling especially is unparalleled as far as I'm concerned. 

This is super helpful, so thank you for the detailed response.  I think the main reason I assumed that Sekiro would be more up my alley is that it doesn't have the expansive RPG progression and stats systems of BB and DS.  I'm happy to have up-gradable skill trees, but having to pay attention to weapon and character stats usually just frustrates me.  That's one particular thing that I loved about Breath of the Wild for example - the progression in that game was tied to your own skill and exploration rather than leveling your character.  Even without a ton of knowledge about the Soulsborne games, I think I'm going to get Sekiro because what you described - simple, tight, addictive systems and the ability to play in long or short sessions - is really appealing to me.  I'd also prefer that a game is more difficult than easy, so I'm happy to rise to the challenge.

 

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4 hours ago, Man of Culture said:

 

 

English version of the trailer I posted a little while ago.

Got a 1/2 chub from watching that, Ive got a 4 day weekend this week so I get to really dig in to it.

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52 minutes ago, ShreddieMercuryRising said:

 

This is super helpful, so thank you for the detailed response.  I think the main reason I assumed that Sekiro would be more up my alley is that it doesn't have the expansive RPG progression and stats systems of BB and DS.  I'm happy to have up-gradable skill trees, but having to pay attention to weapon and character stats usually just frustrates me.  That's one particular thing that I loved about Breath of the Wild for example - the progression in that game was tied to your own skill and exploration rather than leveling your character.  Even without a ton of knowledge about the Soulsborne games, I think I'm going to get Sekiro because what you described - simple, tight, addictive systems and the ability to play in long or short sessions - is really appealing to me.  I'd also prefer that a game is more difficult than easy, so I'm happy to rise to the challenge.

 

I'm actually usually not a fan of that either but honestly, especially Bloodborne is quite simple in regards to stats. As long as you upgrade health, stamina and whatever attribute your weapon type of choice caters to (strength etc.), the rest doesn't have to be engaged with to succeed and/or have fun. At least the way I play these games...DS being an RPG initially actually turned me off when my friend recommended it.

 

That being said, all of them, including Sekiro, do have respawning enemies and so on if that is indeed a big problem for you. Just as a warning but this serves more being able to farm currency to level if one so desires as most previously cleared areas can usually be sprinted past back to the boss. Typically large roadblock type enemies do not respawn in these games.

 

Not trying to talk you into buying games you might think suck on paper but I seriously think Demon's, Dark and Bloodborne are so fucking well designed, they should at least be tried out by anyone into video games.

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Quote

Let's play Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice! The developers of Dark Souls and Bloodborne - FromSoftware - are back at it. Check out the new Senpou Temple, Hirata Estate, and upgrade systems in this gameplay walkthrough. Available on PS4 March 22.

 

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3 hours ago, ShreddieMercuryRising said:

I think the main reason I assumed that Sekiro would be more up my alley is that it doesn't have the expansive RPG progression and stats systems of BB and DS.

Expansive? The games let you put some points into stats, and different weapons had different attributes/stats, but I'd hardly call that expansive. It certainly wasn't like Diablo-level weaponry where you're comparing percentages constantly or whatever. It was pretty clear when a weapon was an upgrade.

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12 hours ago, Xbob42 said:

Expansive? The games let you put some points into stats, and different weapons had different attributes/stats, but I'd hardly call that expansive. It certainly wasn't like Diablo-level weaponry where you're comparing percentages constantly or whatever. It was pretty clear when a weapon was an upgrade.

 

I wouldn't call it 'expansive', but it definitely is not clear when a weapon will be better in the proper Souls games; between the base statistics, scaling, reinforcement, infusions, and incorporation into playing style, it is never apparent whether or not a weapon will be an upgrade long term. 

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5 minutes ago, Chris- said:

 

I wouldn't call it 'expansive', but it definitely is not clear when a weapon will be better in the proper Souls games; between the base statistics, scaling, reinforcement, infusions, and incorporation into playing style, it is never apparent whether or not a weapon will be an upgrade long term. 

Sure, but I just meant in-the-moment. You pop a weapon on, hit something with it, there ya go. Generally I don't think all that many people even really focus on a proper "build" the first time around, that's something you tend to get into once you understand everything more. Hell, I never do builds at all because the games aren't nearly difficult enough to warrant that and I find the PvP too laggy to care.

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2 minutes ago, Xbob42 said:

Sure, but I just meant in-the-moment. You pop a weapon on, hit something with it, there ya go. Generally I don't think all that many people even really focus on a proper "build" the first time around, that's something you tend to get into once you understand everything more. Hell, I never do builds at all because the games aren't nearly difficult enough to warrant that and I find the PvP too laggy to care.

 

That's definitely not the case; a regular +5/+10 weapon is going to hit much harder than a boss weapon that was just crafted. And it's not a build thing, because even inefficient melee builds will still involve at least one of STR or DEX being leveled (which are the most important for scaling). It isn't expansive, but it is definitely minute and esoteric.

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23 minutes ago, Chris- said:

 

That's definitely not the case; a regular +5/+10 weapon is going to hit much harder than a boss weapon that was just crafted. And it's not a build thing, because even inefficient melee builds will still involve at least one of STR or DEX being leveled (which are the most important for scaling). It isn't expansive, but it is definitely minute and esoteric.

While that's true, I think in the end you just don't have to micro-manage the shit out of these games and that's more what I got out of @ShreddieMercuryRising's posts. I might be wrong about that. What I meant is that in the end, especially on your first playthrough, you don't have to engage with all stats or worry about the minutiae of damage outputs to enjoy and beat these titles. 

 

I got the impression Shreddie may be picturing something more akin to Nioh where you're constantly bombarded with micro-management and extraneous crap. 

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I think this is the most blind I have gone into a From game. There were so many early Dark Souls streams. I remember watching the IGN stream which was like 8-16 hours of Dark Souls. I had a massive advantage going into that game. I also played the network test for BB, DS2, and DS3, and there is no network test for SDT. 

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On 3/18/2019 at 11:36 AM, Bloodporne said:

Actually, Souls and Bloodborne all save constantly so they are shockingly pick-up-and-play friendly to me at least. As in, I often popped in for 30 minute bursts  to take a swing at bosses, get a handle of a particular area or similar. 

well.. yes and no. You can pick up and pop in for 1/2 hr...but theres a good chance you will have literally gotten nowhere in that time. In order to truly progress in the Souls games, you need to commit to a section or boss and try to get it done. it could be hours of repeating the same content over and over until you do it. 

 

that has always been my biggest turnoff to the Souls games. I get it that they want death to have consequences.. thats fine...I just dont feel like spending so much time on zero progress repeating the same things until its 2nd nature in order to win.

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19 minutes ago, atom631 said:

well.. yes and no. You can pick up and pop in for 1/2 hr...but theres a good chance you will have literally gotten nowhere in that time. In order to truly progress in the Souls games, you need to commit to a section or boss and try to get it done. it could be hours of repeating the same content over and over until you do it. 

 

that has always been my biggest turnoff to the Souls games. I get it that they want death to have consequences.. thats fine...I just dont feel like spending so much time on zero progress repeating the same things until its 2nd nature in order to win.

 

 

Zero Progress in a Souls game typically equates to the player simply not learning from their mistakes. Functionally, the games are incredibly simple, from the style of gameplay on offer to the AI of the enemies. The genius of it is that the game is designed in such a way as to punish players who fail to learn and grow. But that does take time and patience. If you're lacking one or both, you're going to have a very rough time with these games.

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17 minutes ago, Man of Culture said:

 

 

Zero Progress in a Souls game typically equates to the player simply not learning from their mistakes. Functionally, the games are incredibly simple, from the style of gameplay on offer to the AI of the enemies. The genius of it is that the game is designed in such a way as to punish players who fail to learn and grow. But that does take time and patience. If you're lacking one or both, you're going to have a very rough time with these games.

agreed. but that commitment to learn is steep. its not something you can pick up and do in 1/2hr intervals.

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2 hours ago, Bacon said:

I think this is the most blind I have gone into a From game. There were so many early Dark Souls streams. I remember watching the IGN stream which was like 8-16 hours of Dark Souls. I had a massive advantage going into that game. I also played the network test for BB, DS2, and DS3, and there is no network test for SDT. 

 

Me too. I have watched ONE video about this game, and that was 3 months ago. I've read little things here and there. But I honestly have no idea about the mechanics, structure, story, etc etc.

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1 hour ago, atom631 said:

well.. yes and no. You can pick up and pop in for 1/2 hr...but theres a good chance you will have literally gotten nowhere in that time. In order to truly progress in the Souls games, you need to commit to a section or boss and try to get it done. it could be hours of repeating the same content over and over until you do it. 

 

that has always been my biggest turnoff to the Souls games. I get it that they want death to have consequences.. thats fine...I just dont feel like spending so much time on zero progress repeating the same things until its 2nd nature in order to win.

I get what you're saying but I can only speak for myself and I played all these games in relatively short 30 minute to 1 hour bursts often. I consider getting better at a boss, or section, progress though personally so that's where our take differs greatly. 

 

I never found the games to not be fun while repeating and learning is probably why, quite the contrary actually. I think their style of challenge somehow is right up my alley and I love learning and crushing a boss or section finally. 

 

Edit: At this point I feel like we should start a new thread where we take monetary bets on whether Mr. Shreddie will like Souls games or not and just gift him one of these fuckers collectively. 

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you can add me to that betting pool too! ive tried basically all the souls games and never finished one of them. 

 

im hoping the setting of this one keep me more intrigued than the others. 

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Early impressions I'm reading on reddit and lurk-checking on ERA sound overwhelmingly positive in terms of the actual game.

 

Reports on console performance vary wildly so far so who the hell knows really. Some dude on ERA went balls-to-the-wall and claimed it to drop "Blighttown levels" yet a good number of players are saying it runs just fine on PS4 Pro, so yeah...

 

Difficulty-wise, streamers and reports from other players look like it's well, a From game, but from what I've peaked at, we're at the stage where everyone is trying to play this like a Souls game and failing hard as hell. I watched someone for a few minutes earlier and they refused to parry at all and basically just got chased around by a mini-boss the entire time with zero results.

 

The game does feature a practice area of sorts this time around I saw with a teacher NPC you can train on and who actually teaches you combat mechanics step by step. In short, it seems like it plays barely anything like Souls except maybe very superficially and From is trying to teach you that right off the bat this time. Stealth also looks very effective and well done yet like I said, three streamers I checked out briefly all stubbornly did their Souls routine and just sprinted into, and through, areas and ended up in mob ambushes getting crushed because they didn't engage with the verticality nor stealth really.

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32 minutes ago, Bloodporne said:

Early impressions I'm reading on reddit and lurk-checking on ERA sound overwhelmingly positive in terms of the actual game.

 

Reports on console performance vary wildly so far so who the hell knows really. Some dude on ERA went balls-to-the-wall and claimed it to drop "Blighttown levels" yet a good number of players are saying it runs just fine on PS4 Pro, so yeah...

 

Difficulty-wise, streamers and reports from other players look like it's well, a From game, but from what I've peaked at, we're at the stage where everyone is trying to play this like a Souls game and failing hard as hell. I watched someone for a few minutes earlier and they refused to parry at all and basically just got chased around by a mini-boss the entire time with zero results.

 

The game does feature a practice area of sorts this time around I saw with a teacher NPC you can train on and who actually teaches you combat mechanics step by step. In short, it seems like it plays barely anything like Souls except maybe very superficially and From is trying to teach you that right off the bat this time. Stealth also looks very effective and well done yet like I said, three streamers I checked out briefly all stubbornly did their Souls routine and just sprinted into, and through, areas and ended up in mob ambushes getting crushed because they didn't engage with the verticality nor stealth really.

Sounds awesome! I'm really thankful for the practice area.  I feel like that will diminish confusion and frustration since it sounds like you won't be constantly dying while trying to learn the game.  I have a regular PS4, so hopefully it runs alright, but I also am pretty clueless as to performance in general.  People freak out about framerates, but I tend not to really notice or mind as long as it stays above 30.

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10 minutes ago, ShreddieMercuryRising said:

Sounds awesome! I'm really thankful for the practice area.  I feel like that will diminish confusion and frustration since it sounds like you won't be constantly dying while trying to learn the game.  I have a regular PS4, so hopefully it runs alright, but I also am pretty clueless as to performance in general.  People freak out about framerates, but I tend not to really notice or mind as long as it stays above 30.

It definitely looks tough difficulty-wise, no doubt about that. But again, I kept seeing people not engaging with the stealth mechanics which look very much viable in many situations. I can see this making the game look a lot harder right now before people get off their Souls playstyles. 

 

I haven't read anything about base PS4 performance myself. I know it apparently runs like butter on PC if you have that available. 

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50 minutes ago, Bloodporne said:

Early impressions I'm reading on reddit and lurk-checking on ERA sound overwhelmingly positive in terms of the actual game.

 

Reports on console performance vary wildly so far so who the hell knows really. Some dude on ERA went balls-to-the-wall and claimed it to drop "Blighttown levels" yet a good number of players are saying it runs just fine on PS4 Pro, so yeah...

 

Difficulty-wise, streamers and reports from other players look like it's well, a From game, but from what I've peaked at, we're at the stage where everyone is trying to play this like a Souls game and failing hard as hell. I watched someone for a few minutes earlier and they refused to parry at all and basically just got chased around by a mini-boss the entire time with zero results.

 

The game does feature a practice area of sorts this time around I saw with a teacher NPC you can train on and who actually teaches you combat mechanics step by step. In short, it seems like it plays barely anything like Souls except maybe very superficially and From is trying to teach you that right off the bat this time. Stealth also looks very effective and well done yet like I said, three streamers I checked out briefly all stubbornly did their Souls routine and just sprinted into, and through, areas and ended up in mob ambushes getting crushed because they didn't engage with the verticality nor stealth really.

 

Probably base consoles. The Pro and X1 were reported to run at a variable 60fps (drops down to the 30's in the most demanding situations, but mostly sits around 45fps) by influencers who were flown out to play the game and PC runs at a solid 60fps to nobodies surprise (considering the engine, we got the same sort of perf from Dark Souls 3).

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1 minute ago, Chris- said:

But what pace are the frames at?

If it's the same as the other recent titles, very poorly. The combination of frame pacing, load times and frame rate has to this day kept me from playing more than a few hours of Bloodborne. That stuff's rough in a game that demands precision. You can still do it, but it's just... shitty.

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2 hours ago, Bloodporne said:

Early impressions I'm reading on reddit and lurk-checking on ERA sound overwhelmingly positive in terms of the actual game.

 

Stopped reading after that. LOOOL

 

:p

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1 hour ago, Man of Culture said:

 

Probably base consoles. The Pro and X1 were reported to run at a variable 60fps (drops down to the 30's in the most demanding situations, but mostly sits around 45fps) by influencers who were flown out to play the game and PC runs at a solid 60fps to nobodies surprise (considering the engine, we got the same sort of perf from Dark Souls 3).

What I wrote was reiterating things I've read about the PS4 Pro performance actually but honestly, you never know just how sensitive some players can be so who knows like I said. Just wanted to share what I read overall with everyone interested in the game.

 

@Xbob42 One thing I noticed immediately in Sekiro are the very short load times after dying, I was surprised. From what I saw, it was like 10 to 15 seconds range. 

 

Did you play Bloodborne at launch or later? The initial load times were absolutely hideous but were gladly patched to a more reasonable level. Still quite long but nothing like on release. Figured I'd ask.

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2 minutes ago, Bloodporne said:

What I wrote was reiterating things I've read about the PS4 Pro performance actually but honestly, you never know just how sensitive some players can be so who knows like I said. Just wanted to share what I read overall with everyone interested in the game.

 

@Xbob42 One thing I noticed immediately in Sekiro are the very short load times after dying, I was surprised. From what I saw, it was like 10 to 15 seconds range. 

 

Did you play Bloodborne at launch or later? The initial load times were absolutely hideous but were gladly patched to a more reasonable level. Still quite long but nothing like on release. Figured I'd ask.

 

I know you asked Xbob, but I did play Bloodborne at launch and between the frame pacing issues and the load times, I was completely turned off to it. Tried it again after the load times were patched but still couldn't stomach the frame pacing issues on my OG PS4. Slowly creeping my way through the game on PS4 Pro now, the frame pacing is still shit, but it's "bearable" with boost mode at least. Probably going to fight Blood Starved Beast tonight. FTR, Dark Souls 3 had the same frame pacing issues on PC, but being able to run a game at a stable 60fps mitigates a lot of the issues that arise from frame pacing issues.

 

This site will give you a good idea as to how a game looks to someone who is sensitive to frame pacing issues:

 

https://testufo.com/stutter#demo=microstuttering&foreground=ffffff&background=000000&pps=720

 

Variable Refresh Rate monitors is the cure for this, but afaik, the only console that supports variable refresh rates outside of the realm of PC is the Xbox One X

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