SuperSpreader Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 Yup. Leave it alone. Don't pass anything. All these weakened versions allow the GOP more easily shut it down ala ACA 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TwinIon Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 4 hours ago, osxmatt said: This $1.9T is over the course of 10 years, right? So it's less than $190B a year? Doesn't the US spend nearly $750B on defense each year lol Yes, and this year Biden's budget was more than the defense department asked for, and congress still passed more than $10B more than even that! All at a time when, for the first time in over a decade, we're not really at war overseas anymore. Somehow we're spending more on defense now than we were at any point during Trump, the number keeps going up, and it doesn't seem to get any debate or significant media attention. That extra ~$10B is around the yearly cost that the infrastructure bill spends on roads and bridges or that Build Back Better spends to make two years of community college free. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TwinIon Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 1 hour ago, marioandsonic said: At this point, it might be better if we don't pass anything. 1 hour ago, SuperSpreader said: Yup. Leave it alone. Don't pass anything. All these weakened versions allow the GOP more easily shut it down ala ACA I understand the impulse, and I've got plenty of problems with the ACA, but something is still better than nothing, both in a political sense and in a real practical one. Even a severely scaled back bill would do some real good, and I'd rather the message in the next election cycle be "here's what we got so far, elect more democrats and we can do more." 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marioandsonic Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 2 hours ago, TwinIon said: I understand the impulse, and I've got plenty of problems with the ACA, but something is still better than nothing, both in a political sense and in a real practical one. Even a severely scaled back bill would do some real good, and I'd rather the message in the next election cycle be "here's what we got so far, elect more democrats and we can do more." Well...I suppose they should pass whatever they can before the GOP wins in 2022 and 2024 and turns the US into the fourth Reich. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaysWho? Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 2 hours ago, TwinIon said: I understand the impulse, and I've got plenty of problems with the ACA, but something is still better than nothing, both in a political sense and in a real practical one. Even a severely scaled back bill would do some real good, and I'd rather the message in the next election cycle be "here's what we got so far, elect more democrats and we can do more." That, and while 4 weeks of paid leave ain't enough and should be higher, right now we have unpaid leave only. Perfect doesn't have to be the enemy of advancing a good cause and having something there. Many programs that progressives cherish were not in fully-formed when they began. But what you're saying is likely falling on deaf ears. As it stands, I may have to abandon this thread. It's reading more and more like reactions from left-wing pundits and what some members' Twitter feeds look like, and regular stories on it aren't shared or discussed. And since everything is negative, everybody who broke after 2016 is going down a toilet bowl of emotions, so every 10th post is somebody talking about the end of everything. Maybe it'll improve. Or not, I've kind of given up on that front. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneticBlueprint Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 23 minutes ago, SaysWho? said: That, and while 4 weeks of paid leave ain't enough and should be higher, right now we have unpaid leave only. Perfect doesn't have to be the enemy of advancing a good cause and having something there. Many programs that progressives cherish were not in fully-formed when they began. But what you're saying is likely falling on deaf ears. As it stands, I may have to abandon this thread. It's reading more and more like reactions from left-wing pundits and what some members' Twitter feeds look like, and regular stories on it aren't shared or discussed. And since everything is negative, everybody who broke after 2016 is going down a toilet bowl of emotions, so every 10th post is somebody talking about the end of everything. Maybe it'll improve. Or not, I've kind of given up on that front. Well, some of us--who aren't wordsmiths like you and Twin--share your thoughts but we just don't post them. We like reading them though. Don't abandon the thread. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Posted October 21, 2021 Share Posted October 21, 2021 41 minutes ago, SaysWho? said: That, and while 4 weeks of paid leave ain't enough and should be higher, right now we have unpaid leave only. Perfect doesn't have to be the enemy of advancing a good cause and having something there. Many programs that progressives cherish were not in fully-formed when they began. But what you're saying is likely falling on deaf ears. As it stands, I may have to abandon this thread. It's reading more and more like reactions from left-wing pundits and what some members' Twitter feeds look like, and regular stories on it aren't shared or discussed. And since everything is negative, everybody who broke after 2016 is going down a toilet bowl of emotions, so every 10th post is somebody talking about the end of everything. Maybe it'll improve. Or not, I've kind of given up on that front. I feel like things have gotten better lately. At least Jason and especially b_m have gotten better. Or maybe I just don’t visit as much as I used to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massdriver Posted October 21, 2021 Share Posted October 21, 2021 It doesn't seem like anything has really changed since Senator Manchin said he wouldn't go above 1.5 trillion dollars. I skip all the outrage tweets and I'm in better mental health because of it. I'm most disappointed that the climate provisions are being gutted. A carbon tax is even supported by some oil companies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b_m_b_m_b_m Posted October 21, 2021 Author Share Posted October 21, 2021 9 minutes ago, Joe said: I feel like things have gotten better lately. At least Jason and especially b_m have gotten better. Or maybe I just don’t visit as much as I used to. I've found other ways to vent since my doom posting can easily overwhelm this board 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Posted October 21, 2021 Share Posted October 21, 2021 2 minutes ago, b_m_b_m_b_m said: I've found other ways to vent since my doom posting can easily overwhelm this board I thought you were just happier Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commissar SFLUFAN Posted October 21, 2021 Share Posted October 21, 2021 17 minutes ago, b_m_b_m_b_m said: I've found other ways to vent since my doom posting can easily overwhelm this board 14 minutes ago, Joe said: I thought you were just happier He uses the Discord server for his doom posting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b_m_b_m_b_m Posted October 21, 2021 Author Share Posted October 21, 2021 Just now, Commissar SFLUFAN said: He uses the Discord server for his doom posting. Sickos.jpg 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commissar SFLUFAN Posted October 21, 2021 Share Posted October 21, 2021 I suppose I'd jettison the free community college as well if I had to make hard cuts. Hell, that's probably the easy, no-brainer one to make. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris- Posted October 21, 2021 Share Posted October 21, 2021 23 minutes ago, Commissar SFLUFAN said: I suppose I'd jettison the free community college as well if I had to make hard cuts. Hell, that's probably the easy, no-brainer one to make. The only hard cut in this instance should be the spinal columns of a few Senators. 1 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commissar SFLUFAN Posted October 21, 2021 Share Posted October 21, 2021 Just now, Chris- said: The only hard cut in this instance should be the spinal columns of a few Senators. Would it really be all that hard of a cut to make? 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris- Posted October 21, 2021 Share Posted October 21, 2021 4 minutes ago, Commissar SFLUFAN said: Would it really be all that hard of a cut to make? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commissar SFLUFAN Posted October 21, 2021 Share Posted October 21, 2021 9 hours ago, b_m_b_m_b_m said: Agree with this, but it's also worth noting that these new programs don't get the analysis and attention they deserve because of the filibuster and having to put all of this in one big bill rather than several smaller bills one at a time There's the rub, isn't it? I just don't have the sense that the "theoretical" economic benefits of tax credits will be able to effectively offset the "real" economic costs of the increased provider wages. If the credit benefit could be received "up front", then that could assuage at least some of those concerns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jwheel86 Posted October 21, 2021 Share Posted October 21, 2021 I'm curious where the Eldercare (fucking media) lands. If below $250b and not permanent, the policy might not be functional and States could decline the money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b_m_b_m_b_m Posted October 21, 2021 Author Share Posted October 21, 2021 1 hour ago, Commissar SFLUFAN said: There's the rub, isn't it? I just don't have the sense that the "theoretical" economic benefits of tax credits will be able to effectively offset the "real" economic costs of the increased provider wages. If the credit benefit could be received "up front", then that could assuage at least some of those concerns. A particular problem when coming up against a tightened labor market where wages could increase at a rate faster than the subsidies can accommodate Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CitizenVectron Posted October 21, 2021 Share Posted October 21, 2021 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commissar SFLUFAN Posted October 21, 2021 Share Posted October 21, 2021 19 minutes ago, b_m_b_m_b_m said: A particular problem when coming up against a tightened labor market where wages could increase at a rate faster than the subsidies can accommodate Right - a situation that begs for some form of indexing methodology to be built-in to the calculations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Posted October 21, 2021 Share Posted October 21, 2021 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b_m_b_m_b_m Posted October 21, 2021 Author Share Posted October 21, 2021 That's a good thing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TwinIon Posted October 21, 2021 Share Posted October 21, 2021 When it comes to the choice between fewer programs being enacted but scaled back and with sunset dates, or fewer more robust more permanent programs, I prefer the latter. Pass the legislation with the expectation that the GOP will be in power when it's time is up. If the program, no matter how popular, goes away without them having to do anything, it'll probably go away. If they have to actually pass a bill to replace something, it's far more likely to be effective. I think the ACA is actually a reasonable example in favor of that approach. The entire GOP ran against that. Their messaging was extremely effective, and the bill as a whole had a poor approval rating. Still, when it came time to replace it, they had no ideas and were unwilling to pass something that killed off the many popular parts of the bill. If you get paid family leave or community college or any of the other broadly popular provisions passed and put the GOP in a position where they'd need to enact their own legislation to take it down, and I think it's going to stick around. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThreePi Posted October 21, 2021 Share Posted October 21, 2021 1 hour ago, TwinIon said: When it comes to the choice between fewer programs being enacted but scaled back and with sunset dates, or fewer more robust more permanent programs, I prefer the latter. Pass the legislation with the expectation that the GOP will be in power when it's time is up. If the program, no matter how popular, goes away without them having to do anything, it'll probably go away. If they have to actually pass a bill to replace something, it's far more likely to be effective. I think the ACA is actually a reasonable example in favor of that approach. The entire GOP ran against that. Their messaging was extremely effective, and the bill as a whole had a poor approval rating. Still, when it came time to replace it, they had no ideas and were unwilling to pass something that killed off the many popular parts of the bill. If you get paid family leave or community college or any of the other broadly popular provisions passed and put the GOP in a position where they'd need to enact their own legislation to take it down, and I think it's going to stick around. I imagine the gamble is that if they end up being popular and set to sunset while Republicans hold power it would be politically damaging to let them expire. Which is a shitty way to run a government, but that's just how things go these days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Posted October 21, 2021 Share Posted October 21, 2021 Billionaire Trump Donor Says He Has Joe Manchin's Ear: 'I Call Him Every Week' WWW.ROLLINGSTONE.COM Nelson Peltz said on CNBC he calls Sen. Joe Manchin every week to encourage him as he negotiates with Democrats over a social spending bill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Posted October 22, 2021 Share Posted October 22, 2021 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jwheel86 Posted October 22, 2021 Share Posted October 22, 2021 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commissar SFLUFAN Posted October 22, 2021 Share Posted October 22, 2021 We’re Starting to Learn Just How Big Democrats’ Kyrsten Sinema Problem Is SLATE.COM (It’s big.) Quote “There is a sense in which we no longer live in a democracy,” New York Rep. Ritchie Torres told CNN of the caucus’ (somewhat dramatic) feelings toward Sinema, “we live under the tyranny of Kyrsten Sinema.” Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b_m_b_m_b_m Posted October 22, 2021 Author Share Posted October 22, 2021 wow you guys really hate strong women huh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Posted October 22, 2021 Share Posted October 22, 2021 2 minutes ago, b_m_b_m_b_m said: wow you guys really hate strong women huh The only good girl queen is a silent underage servant for her Christlike man king. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b_m_b_m_b_m Posted October 22, 2021 Author Share Posted October 22, 2021 Just now, Jason said: The only good girl queen is a silent underage servant for her Christlike man king. Every once in a while the libertarian in you just slips right out huh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Posted October 22, 2021 Share Posted October 22, 2021 Just now, b_m_b_m_b_m said: Every once in a while the libertarian in you just slips right out huh sarcasm how does it work Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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