Television The Falcon and the Winter Soldier OT - It's the Same but Black!

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, Jason said:

 

I haven't watched that video yet but I don't see how what I posted is whining about Disney or the show being woke, I just took it as not wanting to do a pandemic story in the middle of a global pandemic, and it lines up with the pieces we have about the Flag Smashers story and the ways in which it feels disjointed and underwhelming.

I did watch the video but haven’t watched the whole show and I think the guy makes a pretty compelling case for them removing a virus subplot.

 

I wonder if these MCU shows would have been better in a non-Covid world as there were some Wandavision changes that reportedly were the result of Covid wrecking plans and the reports included information that seemed like would have made for a better show there.

[skillzdadirecta]

1 minute ago, Jason said:

 

I haven't watched that video yet but I don't see how what I posted is whining about Disney or the show being woke, I just took it as not wanting to do a pandemic story in the middle of a global pandemic, and it lines up with the pieces we have about the Flag Smashers story and the ways in which it feels disjointed and underwhelming.

DUDE... I didn't say that's what YOU posted. I said that that's the vibe I got from the friend of mine who has been pushing this for weeks and as he explained to me, it was Disney wanting to be "politically correct" and not offend the Chinese. This is what's going around on the interwebs in their little chat rooms. Their "evidence" is extremely thin and while it may point to a few deleted scenes here and there, a whole virus subplot seems to be a bit of a stretch especially when they have no proof or confirmation coming from the writers or anyone affiliated with the show. The link you posted was from the comments section for christ's sake. This is a fan theory plain and simple... believe it or not, I was just explaining where it came from based on my understanding.

 

The friend who shared this with me buys into all kinds of conspiracy shit which is why I take very little of this stuff that comes from him seriously.

[Kal-El814]

5 minutes ago, sblfilms said:

I did watch the video but haven’t watched the whole show and I think the guy makes a pretty compelling case for them removing a virus subplot.

 

I wonder if these MCU shows would have been better in a non-Covid world as there were some Wandavision changes that reportedly were the result of Covid wrecking plans and the reports included information that seemed like would have made for a better show there.

 

It’s really something that (assuming this is true for a moment) that “virus” is too real but American soldiers acting with impunity across the globe remains just fine.

[skillzdadirecta]

1 minute ago, Kal-El814 said:

 

It’s really something that (assuming this is true for a moment) that “virus” is too real but American soldiers acting with impunity across the globe remains just fine.

I mean my buddy even started to doubt this "theory" once I pointed out how flimsy some of their evidence was which mainly boils down to the Flag Smashers stealing medical supplies and vaccines in the first episode only to have that stuff not be mentioned again and the actress playing Mamma Donya being a famous Mexican actress who was underused in their opinion. Outside of that everything else just seems like a reach that a bunch of youtube watchers have latched onto like the Gospel.

 

 

[Jason]

14 minutes ago, skillzdadirecta said:

DUDE... I didn't say that's what YOU posted. I said that that's the vibe I got from the friend of mine who has been pushing this for weeks and as he explained to me

 

But you said what I posted is basically what your buddy was pushing?

 

Anyhow I think the thing that really ties it together is the comparison of Karli to Thanos, that being there makes a lot more sense if they were literally trying to reduce the global population by half again.

 

15 minutes ago, sblfilms said:

I did watch the video but haven’t watched the whole show and I think the guy makes a pretty compelling case for them removing a virus subplot.

 

I wonder if these MCU shows would have been better in a non-Covid world as there were some Wandavision changes that reportedly were the result of Covid wrecking plans and the reports included information that seemed like would have made for a better show there.

 

The finale of Wandavision was supposed to be longer but they wound up cutting stuff because they couldn't get the FX done in time. So hopefully with that we eventually get a full/extended/whatever cut since it was all post-production stuff, although it seems dumb that they didn't just make it a two-parter to give an extra week for the extra FX considering they had an off week between Wandavision and FatWS anyhow. Unless you meant something else?

[skillzdadirecta]

4 minutes ago, Jason said:

 

But you said what I posted is basically what your buddy was pushing?

I'm saying the theories more than likely came from the same places/sources. That's all. I was just trying to point out the genesis of this stuff... take it or leave it. I really don't care either way... internet theories about what could have or couldn't have been in a TV show bore the hell out of me.

[Spawn_of_Apathy]

On 4/23/2021 at 2:36 PM, NeoJoe said:

So now that the show is over can we tackle one of the greatest mysteries? Where the hell did Captain's shield come from in the first place? How did old Steve Rogers even have a shield to give Sam? Thanos destroyed his shield in Endgame.

 

I get that we're to assume the Wakandans just made him a new one somehow but I think it's weird he had it again at the end of Endgame to begin with. lol

cap trekked his way to where his frozen body was and took his shield, while leaving himself in the ice. 
 

...that’s what I’m going with at least. 

[skillzdadirecta]

The Falcon and the Winter Soldier Showrunner Explains Sharon Carter's Controversial Turn - IGN

WWW.IGN.COM

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The Falcon and the Winter Soldier's showrunner Malcolm Spellman details the "tremendous amount of thought" that went into the evolution of Sharon Carter, and her controversial turn.

 

Pretty much what we've been saying here with some additional reasons.

 

Quote

The Falcon and the Winter Soldier's showrunner Malcolm Spellman has detailed the "tremendous amount of thought" that went into the evolution of Sharon Carter and her controversial turn.

Speaking to IGN, Spellman discussed Sharon Carter becoming the Power Broker in the MCU, and how her surprising turn to the dark side begins with Captain America: Civil War.

 

"A tremendous amount of thought went into this decision, and it begins with Civil War," Spellman said. "Sharon was forced out, and in our mind every scenario we ran on why she hadn't been appearing in the MCU had to do with the fact that, when the intelligence community [...] turn on someone, they turn all the way on them.

"You've seen it in Mission Impossible movies, you've seen it in like, Salt, whatever, right? There's even a TV show called Burn Notice — when you've been burned, you are utterly betrayed. These people not only did not ever take Sharon back in, they forced her to become a criminal, and they forced her to be on that trajectory. And with the skillset she developed at SHIELD, she was able to thrive."

 

Sharon becoming the Power Broker was that much more impactful for the writers as she is the great-niece of Peggy Carter and is "sort of like the Princess of Marvel," so this new edge to the character played really well and came from an honest place of being betrayed.

 

"We landed on that truth, that was just what we felt like really happened," Spellman continued. "Add to that the delight in that Sharon comes from royalty, but more than that, more than the character being sort of like the Princess of Marvel, [actress Emily VanCamp] has such a youthful look and vibe. For her to be that edgy really, really played well with the character. But it all came from an honest place. It's not like anyone showed up and said, 'Let's ruin Sharon Carter.' It was, 'What do you think happened to Sharon when SHIELD went bad and the intelligence community turned on her.' And this was it."

 

 

[Spawn_of_Apathy]

Now there’s just the plot hole that somebody not very good at hiding managed to stay off of Clint’s radar when he was murdering crime bosses for five years. 

[Greatoneshere]

1 minute ago, Spawn_of_Apathy said:

Now there’s just the plot hole that somebody not very good at hiding managed to stay off of Clint’s radar when he was murdering crime bosses for five years. 

 

Perhaps they'll address more in the upcoming Hawkeye show. 

[skillzdadirecta]

7 minutes ago, Spawn_of_Apathy said:

Now there’s just the plot hole that somebody not very good at hiding managed to stay off of Clint’s radar when he was murdering crime bosses for five years. 

Who? Sharon? 

[Ghost_MH]

18 minutes ago, Spawn_of_Apathy said:

Now there’s just the plot hole that somebody not very good at hiding managed to stay off of Clint’s radar when he was murdering crime bosses for five years. 

 

Who's not very good at hiding? Clint was very much not trying to ever hide from anyone.

[skillzdadirecta]

I think the implication is that Clint should have killed Sharon or hunted her down... which isn't a plot hole at all. One, because she seems to be more of a thief than a violent murderer, Two she's VERY good at hiding... she's a former Shield Agent for God's sake. Three, she was in Madripoor where she was basically untouchable and Four, Clint may have not been aware of her or hadn't gotten around to her yet. Any or ALL of these make sense.

 

I think we need to revisit the definition of what a "Plot-hole" is because this ain't it. 

[Kal-El814]

The more I think about this show, the less I think it stuck any of its landings aside from Sam being a good Captain America. The people that worked on the show getting out there and saying they hoped by the end that viewers would like John Walker… did they watch the show they made? Who would like that fucking guy, OLO. Sam giving him “the nod” in the finale was Rambeau, “they’ll never know what you went through,” tier nonsense, get that shit out of here.

 

But uh, Hawkeye not hunting down the Power Broker ain’t a plot hole, LUL. Sam and Bucky are going all over the world dealing with terrorist threats and they didn’t even know the Power Broker existed. Hawkeye was killing Mexican cartel members and Yakuza publicly, there’s no reason to assume he’s doing more homework than looking for dudes with gold plated guns or who have 75% of a pinky, come on now.

[Kal-El814]

 

This guy gets it.

[SuperSpreader]

I hope it's only get ppl to like him to crush them later in the movies. 

[skillzdadirecta]

1 hour ago, Kal-El814 said:

 

This guy gets it.

 

Well Zack Snyder definitely wanted you to like The Comedian... he also went out his way to make Rorsach cooler than he was intended to be so... 

 

I think saying they wanted Walker to be likeable was a poor choice of words. Making him somewhat redeemable would probably be the correct way to put it and I DO think they accomplished that. I mean they toned down what he did in the comics at this point

 

John Walker's Darkest Moment Was More Extreme in the Comics

SCREENRANT.COM

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John Walker could not stop killing.

 

Also as I was looking up that post, I came across this

 

John Walker Isn't Redeemed In Falcon & Winter Soldier Finale Says Producer

SCREENRANT.COM

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John Walker isn't redeemed yet.

 

So it seems he has a ways to go as far as being redeemed. Which mirrors his journey in the Comics.

 

Lastly there's this...

 

Falcon & Winter Soldier Producer Says Sharon Carter Isn’t Purely Evil

SCREENRANT.COM

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Sharon is on an interesting path.

 

Like I said earlier... she's clearly not COMPLETELY evil. She's just out for self. I'd put here in Catwoman category as far as villainy right now.

[Kal-El814]

I dunno. My feelings on Walker are mixed. If Sam hadn’t given him the nod and if he hadn’t been set up as USAgent in the finale I’d have felt better about his character. Him saving a van full of elected officials from dying instead of pursuing Karli is the minimum we should expect from someone in that role.

 

I know the Flag Smashers were terrorists and super soldiers, but seeing a dude in a uniform beat an unarmed man to death while being filmed get to be back in a uniform, unofficially blessed by the new Cap? Too much too quick. 
 

And Sharon, yeah, I’m interested in where they go with her. A lot of options. 

[CitizenVectron]

I came out of the show thinking that Walker was an angry dude who wasn't worthy of being a hero...but also wasn't evil. 

[Ghost_MH]

21 minutes ago, CitizenVectron said:

I came out of the show thinking that Walker was an angry dude who wasn't worthy of being a hero...but also wasn't evil. 

 

He's a OK dude that has the occasional roid rage...which is really bad considering he's also a super soldier. Like nine times out of ten, he's probably going to make the right choice, and then that tenth time, he's yeeting children off a cliff to get answers from a terrorist. If that's where they keep him, he'll be an interesting addition to the MCU. With all the super powered people here, the fact that we don't have more people with anger or other personality issues is a glaring hole.

[johnny]

I liked the John Walker ending cuz it seemed like the white guy was getting off relatively easy and becoming an agent meant he still had a job where he can do "what he wants". But thinking people would like him is crazy. I dont like the dude at all. 

[Kal-El814]

3 minutes ago, johnny said:

I liked the John Walker ending cuz it seemed like the white guy was getting off relatively easy and becoming an agent meant he still had a job where he can do "what he wants". But thinking people would like him is crazy. I dont like the dude at all. 

 

I don’t have an issue with MCU movies teasing the next thing, because they do a pretty good job of closing the main loop while showing what’s coming. The issue I had with WandaVision and now Falcon and The Winter Soldier is that for a bunch of the characters, I felt we didn’t get a satisfying climax. Wanda and Vision just bounce. USAgent works with someone about whom we have absolutely no context. Bucky crossed some names out of his notebook and we don’t see any of that resolution at all, his name didn’t even change in the title card, he’s still The Winter Soldier.

 

Both these series feel like they ended midway through everyone’s story except for Sam’s. “You’re The Scarlet Witch and hey Vision have some memories… BYEEEEEEEE.” “We need a USAgent… roll credits.” I dunno if it’s a COVID thing or maybe it’s me being a dum dum, but both of these shows feel like the pacing was weird and the realization of the ideas was kinda half to three quarters baked. I found them enjoyable but I think they could be made into 2 hour movies and all we’d lose nothing, I don’t know that they earn their runtime.

 

High class problems, I know.

 

 

[Ghost_MH]

3 minutes ago, Kal-El814 said:

 

I don’t have an issue with MCU movies teasing the next thing, because they do a pretty good job of closing the main loop while showing what’s coming. The issue I had with WandaVision and now Falcon and The Winter Soldier is that for a bunch of the characters, I felt we didn’t get a satisfying climax. Wanda and Vision just bounce. USAgent works with someone about whom we have absolutely no context. Bucky crossed some names out of his notebook and we don’t see any of that resolution at all, his name didn’t even change in the title card, he’s still The Winter Soldier.

 

Both these series feel like they ended midway through everyone’s story except for Sam’s. “You’re The Scarlet Witch and hey Vision have some memories… BYEEEEEEEE.” “We need a USAgent… roll credits.” I dunno if it’s a COVID thing or maybe it’s me being a dum dum, but both of these shows feel like the pacing was weird and the realization of the ideas was kinda half to three quarters baked. I found them enjoyable but I think they could be made into 2 hour movies and all we’d lose nothing, I don’t know that they earn their runtime.

 

High class problems, I know.

 

A lot of these issues may be COVID related. I do believe this series was supposed to air after Black Widow where we may be getting a more proper introduction to Val. Knowing what kind of person she is would really change how we view her introduction here and what exact Walker signed up for.

[Kal-El814]

8 minutes ago, Ghost_MH said:

A lot of these issues may be COVID related. I do believe this series was supposed to air after Black Widow where we may be getting a more proper introduction to Val. Knowing what kind of person she is would really change how we view her introduction here and what exact Walker signed up for.

 

Yeah, true.

 

And I dunno, the MCU does “good guy with pathos…” Pretty badly? It’s hard going back to the first Iron Man, Tony’s such a misogynist and the movie redeems him by having him settle down with his employee? Tony’s probably the guy whose baggage is largely his own and they paper over that into it being a good thing in every movie he’s featured in. Some of the TV shows handle this much better, like Jessica Jones, so I had pretty high hopes for the “prestige” stuff on Disney+ and it’s been… fine. I’ll show up for a “fine” MCU movie, aside from the Avengers flicks they’re usually a tight 2 hours and they’re fun popcorn flicks. And I’m still in on Loiki because it’s Loki, come on, now.

 

But Walker going from beating a guy to death, to getting into a fight with Sam where he could straight up kill him, to getting the nod because he didn’t let a bunch of civilians die is weak fucking tea. 

[skillzdadirecta]

1 hour ago, CitizenVectron said:

I came out of the show thinking that Walker was an angry dude who wasn't worthy of being a hero...but also wasn't evil. 

 

1 hour ago, Ghost_MH said:

 

He's a OK dude that has the occasional roid rage...which is really bad considering he's also a super soldier. Like nine times out of ten, he's probably going to make the right choice, and then that tenth time, he's yeeting children off a cliff to get answers from a terrorist. If that's where they keep him, he'll be an interesting addition to the MCU. With all the super powered people here, the fact that we don't have more people with anger or other personality issues is a glaring hole.

 

It wasn't roid rage because Walker's issues in this predated him getting the serum. Walker's issues were clearly PTSD related and Lemar and his wife were his anchors. He clearly was carrying a lot of weight on his shoulders regarding him losing a bunch of team members but ultimately he's a guy who wants to do the right thing. The serum just makes him MORE of who he was. Maybe I'm a little more sympathetic to him because he's a LOT less crazy than he was at this point in the comics were he massacred MULTIPLE people before coming to his senses.  Him being flawed is interesting and I suspect that he will be the first in Val's covert team whatever that team will ultimately be.

[skillzdadirecta]

 

also this... hopefully this will shed some light on the "missing virus subplot" 

[Kal-El814]

2 hours ago, skillzdadirecta said:

 

also this... hopefully this will shed some light on the "missing virus subplot" 

 

Watching this now, and one of the guys is talking about how they wrote Karli as a hero who went bad… this whole show is so muddled, I don’t get how the people who made it are saying the things they’re saying about it after watching what ended up being released.

[skillzdadirecta]

 

Umm that's who she was... She started out with noble intentions and even in the end she thought she was fighting for the people. Sharon even says that Karli reminded her of her when she was younger. "Every villain is the hero in their own story." I can totally see how Karli thought she was the "good" guy. Most self righteous zealots think the same thing. Think of Karli as a super soldier Magneto and I think that's pretty close to what her character was.

 

I honestly don't see anything wrong with what the writers have been saying. Maybe not all of their ideas landed the way they intended... but most did. I'm not sure where some of you are coming from to be honest. This was a pretty straight forward buddy cop action show with some social commentary thrown in and it worked for the most part for me at least 

[skillzdadirecta]

Hmmm so the speculation is that rather than The Thunderbolts, Val's team COULD be The Dark Avengers or Secret Avengers, two different teams from the main team.

[Kal-El814]

Force Works or bust you fucking cowards. 

[skillzdadirecta]

1 hour ago, Kal-El814 said:

Force Works or bust you fucking cowards. 

Didn't they have a cartoon at one point?

[Kal-El814]

34 minutes ago, skillzdadirecta said:

Didn't they have a cartoon at one point?

No idea, my main memory of the book is the art being… not good.

[skillzdadirecta]

21 minutes ago, Kal-El814 said:

No idea, my main memory of the book is the art being… not good.

Oh it was awful... When Marvel was desperately trying to figure out how to compete with Image.

 

Force Works | Marvel Animated Universe Wiki | Fandom

MARVELANIMATED.FANDOM.COM

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Force Works is a team led by Iron Man funded by Stark Enterprises where the members were employed. They spent most of their time fighting the Mandarin and his minions. 1 Members 1.1 Former Members 2 History 2.1 Heroics 2.2 Disbanding 2.3 Reformation 3 Background 3.1 In the Comics 4 External Links Iron Man, better known as Anthony "Tony" Stark, uses a series of highly advanced armor with a vast array of weapons...

 

Yup it was a cartoon... For some reason they couldn't use Thor so they created some rando character to stand in for him. Think his name was Justice or something. EDIT: His name was Century 

 

Hawkeye, Scarlet Witch and USAgent were all members too.

[Kal-El814]

@skillzdadirecta
 

 

YIKES

[skillzdadirecta]

Turrible... I don't think I even bought that issue