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The thread of pardons - first up, Mike Flynn


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NEWS.YAHOO.COM

Over the last six weeks, so many people have been calling and emailing the West Wing seeking pardons that White House staffers have had to create a spreadsheet to keep track of the requests, CNN reports."It's turned crazy," one person familiar with the matter said. "There's a lot of activity." The queries have been coming in from business associates close to Trump as well as high-profile criminals, CNN reports, and when...

 

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It's like they don't understand pardon's are an admittance of guilt for the one being pardoned, for whatever crimes they are being pardoned for. It's the equivalent of pleading guilty in court, but being let go afterwards.

 

You are forever on the record as being guilty of those crimes you were pardoned for though. You become a felon, and have to explain to any future jobs, etc. you are a pardoned felon. And you can't be pardoned unless specific crimes are laid out for which you are then pardoned for. It's not a catch-all, there is paperwork involved. It is not the same as a settlement (settlements are legally not an admittance of wrong doing) and it is not an expungement of your crime of record (where everything is deleted and burned as if the crime never happened - usually done for people under 21 with minor crimes who want their records clear for like underage drinking). Pardons are their own thing.

 

"I am pardoned for any crimes I may have committed" does not fly. It has to be: "I am pardoned for being guilty of theft, first degree murder, etc." Sounds quite different when it goes on one's "permanent record". 

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1 hour ago, Greatoneshere said:

It's like they don't understand pardon's are an admittance of guilt for the one being pardoned, for whatever crimes they are being pardoned for. It's the equivalent of pleading guilty in court, but being let go afterwards.

 

You are forever on the record as being guilty of those crimes you were pardoned for though. You become a felon, and have to explain to any future jobs, etc. you are a pardoned felon. And you can't be pardoned unless specific crimes are laid out for which you are then pardoned for. It's not a catch-all, there is paperwork involved. It is not the same as a settlement (settlements are legally not an admittance of wrong doing) and it is not an expungement of your crime of record (where everything is deleted and burned as if the crime never happened - usually done for people under 21 with minor crimes who want their records clear for like underage drinking). Pardons are their own thing.

 

"I am pardoned for any crimes I may have committed" does not fly. It has to be: "I am pardoned for being guilty of theft, first degree murder, etc." Sounds quite different when it goes on one's "permanent record". 


Yeah I still have no idea why people think this ‘preemptive pardon’ bullshit is going to work. I don’t doubt Trump will try it, but there is a 0.0 percent chance the Biden DoJ or federal judiciary go along with it. 

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1 hour ago, CitizenVectron said:

These people don't care because they will continue to publicly insist they are innocent (what punishment is there for that? Nothing), and they already have the connections and money to not have to apply for a job on paper.

 

For sure, but these people, at this level, do care about their reputations and if they are forever pardoned for crimes they are guilty of (whether it's the case or not - it is the case here though) seems like a damning statement, but I guess in the Fox News/OANN/NewsMax universe it makes them probably look even cooler, etc. :( 

 

3 minutes ago, Chris- said:


Yeah I still have no idea why people think this ‘preemptive pardon’ bullshit is going to work. I don’t doubt Trump will try it, but there is a 0.0 percent chance the Biden DoJ or federal judiciary go along with it. 

 

Yeah, exactly. They actually have to outline specific crimes that then need pardoning, pardoning isn't just: "I'm free of all liability I have committed up to this point" for obvious reasons.

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On 12/17/2020 at 12:11 PM, Greatoneshere said:

It's like they don't understand pardon's are an admittance of guilt for the one being pardoned, for whatever crimes they are being pardoned for. It's the equivalent of pleading guilty in court, but being let go afterwards.

 

 

 

"I am pardoned for any crimes I may have committed" does not fly. It has to be: "I am pardoned for being guilty of theft, first degree murder, etc." Sounds quite different when it goes on one's "permanent record". 

 

On 12/17/2020 at 2:09 PM, Chris- said:


Yeah I still have no idea why people think this ‘preemptive pardon’ bullshit is going to work. I don’t doubt Trump will try it, but there is a 0.0 percent chance the Biden DoJ or federal judiciary go along with it. 

 

Technically true, but the effect that the preemptive pardon has is that no one will bother investigating/prosecuting/convicting them of crimes if they're just going to get let off the hook. There's no point. And the president absolutely can give general pardons. Nixon was pardoned for any federal crime he "may or may not have committed or participated in" while in the White House. The president doesn't even have to name a specific crime. Andrew Johnson gave a blanket pardon to every confederate soldier after the civil war. There are a few other examples.

 

So, while technically yes, accepting a pardon is an admission of guilt, they're never going to get convicted of anything in the first place, so it's a moot point. The president can pardon anyone for any reason, he doesn't have to name a specific crime, or even a specific person. In theory the president could pardon everyone in the entire country for every federal crime.

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There's not even a law that *specifically* says the President can't pardon himself, though there are laws that say the president isn't above prosecution for crimes committed while in office, so it would probably be argued in court that the constitution *implies* that the President cannot pardon himself. No one has ever tried it before, though, so if Trump tried to pardon himself, it would definitely go to the Supreme Court.

 

edit: typo

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3 hours ago, Fizzzzle said:

 

 

Technically true, but the effect that the preemptive pardon has is that no one will bother investigating/prosecuting/convicting them of crimes if they're just going to get let off the hook. There's no point. And the president absolutely can give general pardons. Nixon was pardoned for any federal crime he "may or may not have committed or participated in" while in the White House. The president doesn't even have to name a specific crime. Andrew Johnson gave a blanket pardon to every confederate soldier after the civil war. There are a few other examples.

 

So, while technically yes, accepting a pardon is an admission of guilt, they're never going to get convicted of anything in the first place, so it's a moot point. The president can pardon anyone for any reason, he doesn't have to name a specific crime, or even a specific person. In theory the president could pardon everyone in the entire country for every federal crime.

 

Yes I agree, my only point was it doesn't exonerate them from future crimes (they probably think it does) and it doesn't exonerate them from state versions of federal crimes, so they can still get screwed (though they probably won't). And others pardoning you is different than you pardoning yourself, I would think, but perhaps not (as you explained).

 

I'm just saying, being pardoned isn't per se a good look even if you pull it off. But most won't know or care, but that's the case with most things. 

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