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Ratchet & Clank: Rift Apart (June 11, 2021) - Information Thread, Update: reviews from OpenCritic posted


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1 hour ago, JPDunks4 said:

The 6 minute mark is the teleporting.  The player seems to make 1 actual input during the sequence, jumping over the cart on the rail.  I guess they move the dragon around a little dodging the flying cars?  Then they land, and he fights 3 enemies.  That sequence of course is impressive to look at, but from a gameplay perspective, would feel no better to me than playing a CoD scripted sequence where I start out crashing through a jungle in a Jeep, into a dark cave then outside the far side into an office building and city streets.  It's just a scripted cinematic scene made to look cool and impressive, but gameplay wise offers next to nothing.

 

But the point of that sequence wasn't to highlight some special kind of player agency.  It was to show how rapidly they could dump you from one unique environment and gameplay scenario into the next.  Maybe you see it as a glorified cut-scene in practice, but the current gen consoles couldn't even do that without resorting to a FMV with all the shifts packed into that last minute.  You don't see these sorts of wholescale environmental swaps in quick succession, not without lengthy cutscenes and transitions to mask loading.  Ratchet's wormholes come much closer to brute forcing it.

As for the simplistic gameplay durring that sequence ... I'll keep bringing WarioWare up.  If a game is going to give you only a few seconds to get your bearings before tossing you somewhere else, you should expect the mechanics to be straightforward.  If there was more congruity and longevity to the environments, and I think you could expect more complexity. 

Then again, this is Ratchet, and super simple mechanics are a virtue for the series.  So I'm not holding my breath.  There's been several good ideas in this thread that could be explored because of what the Ratchet demo has shown to be possible.  To me, it means we can finally get away from the dark-world/light-world trope in dimensional warping, should devs choose.

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11 minutes ago, Keyser_Soze said:

How about this part in control when you rapidly are dumped into this unique environment?

 

 

I wouldn’t say this approaches the complexity of the world/asset swaps in the Ratchet demo.  It’s not that these concepts haven’t been done before, because they have.  The hardware has just limited the scope of what is possible or practical for developers.

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9 hours ago, Duderino said:

It's irrelevant because it is not pertinent to the discussion at hand, plain and simple.  I don't even disagree.  This is pointless.


It’s absolutely pertinent to the discussion since we’re having the discussion. You just really seem to hate the discussion and keep replying in a circular manner to purposely not answer a simple question. Weird.

 

9 hours ago, crispy4000 said:


Because it doesn’t fit his gut feelings that Ratchet didn’t prove enough.

 

Where have I criticized the game or claim that it didn’t prove enough? When did I claim it needed to prove anything? I asked a question and because the answer is “no” that’s somehow bashing the game in your mind? What...?
 

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I think it’s more about expectations.  For some people, these quick transitions are justification that the SSD can change game design.  For others, it’s not enough to provide a ‘this is next-gen (gameplay)’ moment we’re supposed to want out of it.  So it gets debated.


Never said anything about it not being next gen or not being enough or whatever your mind has twisted it into.

It’s so odd that you cannot seem to have discussions with people on this forum without constantly throwing strawmen and red herrings. Seriously, what are you even talking about? Asking about gameplay mechanics that are SSD dependent is not criticism of the game, taking away from the game, or bashing it for not having any. I asked because I thought I missed something that others saw.

This is like if someone asked “can you directly control Atreus in God of War?”, you reply “you can issue commands”, they ask to confirm “oh, so you can’t control him directly?”, and you respond with “WHY DO YOU HATE GOD OF WAR? WHY ISN’T ISSUING COMMANDS ENOUGH FOR YOU? WHY DOES IT HAVE TO BE YOU DIRECTLY CONTROL HIM?”

You’re seriously reading way too much into posts and questions to get to the conclusions you’ve been coming to.

 

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But I don’t think there’s much of an argument that it isn’t groundbreaking, as has been claimed.  I’m even struggling to remember any cartridge-based 3D games, where loading is minimal, that do world swaps to a similar effect.

 

It’s been done on a smaller scale in other games. This is an evolution. I consider groundbreaking to be something that has never been done before (when used as an adjective, that’s typically the definition). That does not take away from how great or impressive it is, however (I’ve said this so many times now). 
Regardless, I’m not even talking about the world transition as it’s not a gameplay mechanic since they’re pre-determined set pieces based on what’s been shown.
 

9 hours ago, legend said:

My suspicion is the vast majority of benefits from fast SSDs will be of the level-design variety.


Most likely, but there are certainly other ways it can and will be used in the sense of new/better gameplay mechanics in the future. Again, though, that’s not attempting to take away from R&C and it’s glimpse of “what’s to come”. I’m simply asking “what gameplay (in terms of mechanics) features shown in the video couldn’t be done without an SSD?”. As I stated earlier:

 

15 hours ago, Spork3245 said:

I dunno, maybe later in the game you can hop over to new worlds instantly and at your discretion to escape enemies or something? That would definitely be an SSD-based gameplay mechanic. Unfortunately, nothing like that has been shown in the videos provided so far.


If there are branching/optional/player-determined paths that use the world hopping dynamically (ie: jump into to this world with dinosaurs to progress to escape these killer robots, or fight through the robots to progress - not in a “press O for this choice, X for that choice” manner), I would consider that more of a gameplay mechanic than what’s been shown.

Just to be 100% clear, though: what’s been shown is great and impressive.

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2 hours ago, Spork3245 said:

This is like if someone asked “can you directly control Atreus in God of War?”, you reply “you can issue commands”, they ask to confirm “oh, so you can’t control him directly?”, and you respond with “WHY DO YOU HATE GOD OF WAR? WHY ISN’T ISSUING COMMANDS ENOUGH FOR YOU? WHY DOES IT HAVE TO BE YOU DIRECTLY CONTROL HIM?”

You’re seriously reading way too much into posts and questions to get to the conclusions you’ve been coming to.

 

If that's honestly the way you think this argument has played out in your head, it's no wonder you've responded to me in turn.

 

A command as instantaneous as Atreus' arrows is a form of direct control.  Enough so where it's more an extension of Kratos' moveset, even when Atreus still functions as an AI partner otherwise.  There's a nuance there that doesn't neat and tidily fit in a box.  But when that's presented to you, you double down on what you frame as black and white.  "If there's direct control, where is it?" and so on.

Where the GoW analogy breaks down is that no one is saying it's an approach enabled by new tech.
 

 

2 hours ago, Spork3245 said:

It’s been done on a smaller scale in other games. This is an evolution. I consider groundbreaking to be something that has never been done before (when used as an adjective, that’s typically the definition). That does not take away from how great or impressive it is, however (I’ve said this so many times now). 

 

Regardless, I’m not even talking about the world transition as it’s not a gameplay mechanic since they’re pre-determined set pieces based on what’s been shown.


At a much smaller scale.  It hasn't been done close to this degree in AAA games, since the tech hasn't been there to enable the speed of these world swaps.  It opens up new pacing and level design possibilities, at least for games which are fantastical enough for warp rifts.  Like @legend said, that does impact gameplay.  Just not in the way you've insisted on framing this discussion.

 

If nothing else, Ratchet is the first game to take advantage of a SSD in this way.  I think evolution is too tame of a word for that, because it's leaping ahead.  Perhaps if we saw PC devs slowly building to this over the past decade, I'd be more on your page.

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I'm not sure it's worth debating what counts as "ground breaking" :p Different people will have different notions of what makes something ground breaking or not and will come at it from different points of view.

 

What we can say though, is all indications point to the fact that the developers of Ratchet would not have made a new Ratchet game like this if it wasn't for the SSD (and pipeline of it). Not just resolution, or reflections being different, but the campaign itself is something they wouldn't have done. They have been empowered to make a game they otherwise would not have made if this tech wasn't there. Or at least, that's what they're telling us and I think there is good reason to believe them. 

 

I think most people in this thread agree with that? In which case maybe we can find that common ground?

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If it makes you feel better @Keyser_Soze even if you're an Xbox fan you should also be rejoicing because while I'm unsure if their implementation is as good as the PS's, their storage tech is also significant compared to what's come before. In fact, if they didn't also have some great storage tech I'd be worried because it would bring down the usage of it in cross-platform games. Even the shitty S has some great storage tech though!

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19 minutes ago, legend said:

If it makes you feel better @Keyser_Soze even if you're an Xbox fan you should also be rejoicing because while I'm unsure if their implementation is as good as the PS's, their storage tech is also significant compared to what's come before. In fact, if they didn't also have some great storage tech I'd be worried because it would bring down the usage of it in cross-platform games. Even the shitty S has some great storage tech though!

 

This is also my takeaway at large, and what I said to him earlier.

Literally everyone's going to benefit from this!  The entire industry should be able to try similar things.  The only real disappointment is that we haven't seen more games illustrate what SSDs enable.

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1 hour ago, crispy4000 said:

 

If that's honestly the way you think this argument has played out in your head, it's no wonder you've responded to me in turn.


 

 

You continue to make up things that I never stated. You’ve done it in repeatedly. When did I state R&C wasn’t “next gen enough” or that it needed to prove something or that it even needed to have SSD-dependent gameplay mechanics? I’ll wait.

 

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A command as instantaneous as Atreus' arrows is a form of direct control.  Enough so where it's more an extension of Kratos' moveset, even when Atreus still functions as an AI partner otherwise.  There's a nuance there that doesn't neat and tidily fit in a box.  But when that's presented to you, you double down on what you frame as black and white.  "If there's direct control, where is it?" and so on.

Where the GoW analogy breaks down is that no one is saying it's an approach enabled by new tech.


I don’t even... what? I’m not debating about god of war.

 

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At a much smaller scale.  It hasn't been done close to this degree in AAA games, since the tech hasn't been there to enable the speed of these world swaps.  It opens up new pacing and level design possibilities, at least for games which are fantastical enough for warp rifts.  Like @legend said, that does impact gameplay.  Just not in the way you've insisted on framing this discussion.


I never said it didn’t impact gameplay. I did differentiate overall game quality and overall gameplay vs a gameplay mechanic, however.
I repeatedly stated previous iterations are on a much smaller scale.

 

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If nothing else, Ratchet is the first game to take advantage of a SSD in this way. 


I already said exactly this.
 

39 minutes ago, legend said:

I'm not sure it's worth debating what counts as "ground breaking" :p Different people will have different notions of what makes something ground breaking or not and will come at it from different points of view.


I tend to go by the definition:

917-FEAB3-F80-D-465-E-9-EFB-3112-A140-BC
Saying it’s not groundbreaking but is an evolution is not meant to remove its merits or how impressive it is.

If you use the word differently, that’s fine. I wasn’t debating what it meant, I was clarifying my own statement regarding “groundbreaking”.

 

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What we can say though, is all indications point to the fact that the developers of Ratchet would not have made a new Ratchet game like this if it wasn't for the SSD (and pipeline of it). Not just resolution, or reflections being different, but the campaign itself is something they wouldn't have done. They have been empowered to make a game they otherwise would not have made if this tech wasn't there. Or at least, that's what they're telling us and I think there is good reason to believe them. 

 

I think most people in this thread agree with that? In which case maybe we can find that common ground?

 

I never said otherwise :p 

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14 minutes ago, Spork3245 said:

 

You continue to make up things that I never stated. You’ve done it in repeatedly. When did I state R&C wasn’t “next gen enough” or that it needed to prove something or that it even needed to have SSD-dependent gameplay mechanics? I’ll wait.

 


Go back and revisit how this conversation got started.  Hint: it wasn't with you.

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4 minutes ago, Spork3245 said:


Go back and read my posts that you replied to. Hint: you quoted me, not others who may or may not have made such statements.


I quoted @legend.  And that comment was in reference to the angle @JPDunks4 initially took that kicked this off.  ("I don't consider anything special or unique as games have been doing stuff like that forever now.")

Not everything is about you.

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10 minutes ago, crispy4000 said:


I quoted @legend.  And that comment was in reference to the angle @JPDunks4 initially took that kicked this off.  ("I don't consider anything special or unique as games have been doing stuff like that forever now.")

Not everything is about you.


Hmmm

12 hours ago, crispy4000 said:


Because it doesn’t fit his gut feelings that Ratchet didn’t prove enough..

 

I think it’s more about expectations.  For some people, these quick transitions are justification that the SSD can change game design.  For others, it’s not enough to provide a ‘this is next-gen (gameplay)’ moment we’re supposed to want out of it.  So it gets debated.

You quoted legend’s reply to me for that. If that “his” was not referencing me (I doubt it wasn’t), perhaps try using names and not pronouns.

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4 minutes ago, Spork3245 said:


Hmmm

You quoted legend’s reply to me for that. If that “his” was not referencing me, perhaps try using names and not pronouns.

 

Alright, I'll give you that.  I probably had your arguements muddled.

If I could ask you more directly then: Do you think Ratchet would have to do more with the SSD to give us a "next-gen" moment?

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6 minutes ago, crispy4000 said:

Do you think Ratchet should be doing more with the SSD to give us a "next-gen" moment?


No. I already praised it as the best looking and most impressive “next-gen” game in the PS5 reveal thread, and I think possibly in the first or second page of this thread. :p 
 

EDIT: definitely in the PS5 reveal thread

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19 minutes ago, JPDunks4 said:

All I needed was clarification it has no human controlled real time teleporting between worlds confirmed yet.  That was all I was asking about, and I have my answer.

 

So sorry to spark this long debate.


Hey, all I was asking was basically the same thing and began getting accused of claiming the game doesn’t “prove enough” or whatever. :p 
If people didn’t read into stuff and go into defense-mode this wouldn’t have happened :hug: 

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31 minutes ago, JPDunks4 said:

All I needed was clarification it has no human controlled real time teleporting between worlds confirmed yet.  That was all I was asking about, and I have my answer.

 

So sorry to spark this long debate.

 

Hey, think of it as a proof of concept.  We'll be seeing it this generation.  Faster than this I expect.
 

 

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