65 replies to this topic

[Scape Zero]

ohioguy24, on 03 April 2012 - 07:10 PM, said:

For me, God never forces us to believe in him thanks to that of free will,I think he has provided evidence of his existence for us to willingly respond to him. But if you're going to write him off totally and not open your heart to Christ, then sure, you won't find him in your world.  You want facts? How about  earth is a perfect distance from the sun to keep it at temperatures to keep us sustained. And then we have the perfect element that gives life. Water. If you want to find Jesus, you must open your heart to Jesus. Its' a very simple to find God. Just gotta be willing.

This is the most ignorant, most thoughtless, most brain-dead argument people can make.

Think for a second.  How would a life form evolve from a planet like ours, to require temperatures of say....300 degree average?  It doesnt.  The world is perfect, because we evolved around what we had available.  You simply will not have something evolve to require something it can not have.  It just doesnt work that way.

Edit: Also, since this world is just so perfect... Explain radiation, earth quakes, tornadoes, illness, etc.  And just to ruin your "perfect" everything even more.  If god is so great, why do we use the same hole we breath with...to eat with?  I mean, lets further quote Tyson, why are our genitals smack dab next to our asshole?  What the fuck kind of "design" is that?  That would be like if Ford started putting exhaust pipes pointing in the driver side window levels of stupid.

[Jason]

ohioguy24, on 03 April 2012 - 07:10 PM, said:

For me, God never forces us to believe in him thanks to that of free will,I think he has provided evidence of his existence for us to willingly respond to him. But if you're going to write him off totally and not open your heart to Christ, then sure, you won't find him in your world.  You want facts? How about  earth is a perfect distance from the sun to keep it at temperatures to keep us sustained. And then we have the perfect element that gives life. Water. If you want to find Jesus, you must open your heart to Jesus. Its' a very simple to find God. Just gotta be willing.

But if I don't believe in God or Jesus or whatever then I'll go to hell for all eternity?

#blackmail

[ohioguy24]

legend, on 03 April 2012 - 10:50 PM, said:

False. Explanations absolutely exist. Science has not confirmed any of them to be true though which is why they are hypotheses at the moment. One of these hypotheses was discussed with you in the last religion thread. Are you trolling or is your memory really that bad?



False. There are many things I believe that I cannot touch and feel. Evidence can come in many forms. I simply require good evidence and religions do not have it. This has also been explained to you in the past.

Well, my opinion of the big bang is like most people, it certainly had a beginning, and the notion of "nothing" before it occurred is agreed by many experts. But that's the mystery of the big bang, what was before? Nobody really knows. Except for one, and you know who I believe that to be. And you guys and your little tag teams accusing me of trolling or not being able to debate is pathetic. I give simple reasons without getting to fancy with words and just tell you what I"m feeling.

[ohioguy24]

Jason, on 04 April 2012 - 02:51 AM, said:

But if I don't believe in God or Jesus or whatever then I'll go to hell for all eternity?

#blackmail

Jason, since I believe in God, I'm going to say No, you won't go to Hell just because you chose on this earth to not believe in God .I think you will have that chance to repent. Call it purgatory (what have you)  or the waiting room before you're judged.  Although there has always been extensive debate about the existence of purgatory in the Christian faith. That's my personal belief. I think we will all be judged. NDE's kind of gave me insight on how it might turn out. Typical experiences, "life review" and the ability to come back or go with God.

Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you (Matthew 7:12).”

[SFLUFAN]

But OG, how do you reconcile your personal belief with what Christ clearly states in John 3:16?  There is simply no room for debate according to Scripture.

[Jason]

SFLUFAN, on 04 April 2012 - 07:59 AM, said:

But OG, how do you reconcile your personal belief with what Christ clearly states in John 3:16?  There is simply no room for debate according to Scripture.

Just as Jesus changed the rules and let us eat shellfish and pork, so has Bigfoot (PBUH) loosened up some of the rules from the New Testament.

[ohioguy24]

SFLUFAN, on 04 April 2012 - 07:59 AM, said:

But OG, how do you reconcile your personal belief with what Christ clearly states in John 3:16?  There is simply no room for debate according to Scripture.

that's a good point man. I can only say... nobody can prove that God does not exist. And not  single person on this earth can prove God does exist (except for God Himself) can prove that God does exist. So yeah, it's pointless to bring up arguments or debate. I was just stating my reasons for my faith and what I believe in. That's all. And no disrespect to anyone in here who does not believe in God. It's your choice and I will respect that.

[Jason]

ohioguy24, on 04 April 2012 - 08:14 AM, said:

I can only say... nobody can prove that God does not exist.

First off, good news, no atheist--not even the "bad guys" like Dawkins--will claim that they can prove that God doesn't exist!

Second off, bad news, unless you're trying to tell Wade that there's no rhyme or reason to your beliefs, you didn't at all answer his question.

[SFLUFAN]

You didn't address my question at all, OG.

[ohioguy24]

SFLUFAN, on 04 April 2012 - 07:59 AM, said:

But OG, how do you reconcile your personal belief with what Christ clearly states in John 3:16?  There is simply no room for debate according to Scripture.

it's what the scripture says though, all people with faith will be saved. I was stating ,I think there will be time for you to repent for those like you who may doubt the existence. Again, all scripture is up for interpretation in the eyes of the beholder correct?

[SFLUFAN]

ohioguy24, on 04 April 2012 - 08:45 AM, said:

it's what the scripture says though, all people with faith will be saved. I was stating ,I think there will be time for you to repent for those like you who may doubt the existence. Again, all scripture is up for interpretation in the eyes of the beholder correct?

Well, no, not according to 2 Peter 1:20 which states:

"Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation."

[Jason]

SFLUFAN, on 04 April 2012 - 08:52 AM, said:

Well, no, not according to 2 Peter 1:20 which states:

"Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation."

[legend]

ohioguy24, on 04 April 2012 - 07:39 AM, said:

Well, my opinion of the big bang is like most people, it certainly had a beginning, and the notion of "nothing" before it occurred is agreed by many experts. But that's the mystery of the big bang, what was before? Nobody really knows. Except for one, and you know who I believe that to be. And you guys and your little tag teams accusing me of trolling or not being able to debate is pathetic. I give simple reasons without getting to fancy with words and just tell you what I"m feeling.

I'm not talking about the big bang. I'm talking about the origins of the universe and Big Bang for which one common explanation is the multiverse, a hypothesis independently originating from quantum mechanical observations and also independently formalized in a way that explains universes with different physics/properties through things like M-theory whose orignal intent was not to explain such things but unify the physical laws we have in our universe.

[ohioguy24]

legend, on 04 April 2012 - 09:42 AM, said:

I'm not talking about the big bang. I'm talking about the origins of the universe and Big Bang for which one common explanation is the multiverse, a hypothesis independently originating from quantum mechanical observations and also independently formalized in a way that explains universes with different physics/properties through things like M-theory whose orignal intent was not to explain such things but unify the physical laws we have in our universe.

YOusa!!!!  Legend, you're vocabulary is ultra awesome and nothing I will say can compete with such a lucid subjective comment like that, I can't respond to this in a way that will appease the masses. I'll admit, some of your responses are way over my head, and I feel stupid sometimes trying to discuss something as deep as you just said. Maybe that's why I wasn't very good in Biology, Physics and Chemistry back in the day!

[legend]

ohioguy24, on 04 April 2012 - 10:28 AM, said:

YOusa!!!!  Legend, you're vocabulary is ultra awesome and nothing I will say can compete with such a lucid subjective comment like that, I can't respond to this in a way that will appease the masses. I'll admit, some of your responses are way over my head, and I feel stupid sometimes trying to discuss something as deep as you just said. Maybe that's why I wasn't very good in Biology, Physics and Chemistry back in the day!

It's okay if the nature of the proposed multiverse and M-theory is over your head. Quite honestly my understanding is extremely rudimentary. That said, the take home message you should get from this, is that there *are* explanations about the origin of the universe out there in which case your claim that "Scientists have no explanation for the sudden explosion of light and matter" is false and hopefully you won't assert that in the future now that you know.

If you want a very light read on that topic I'd recommend reading The Grand Design. Personally, I would have liked it if Hawking went into much more detail than he did, but if you want very light-weight descriptions that give you the idea of some of the things Physicists are doing now, that will help and is a very fast read.

[ohioguy24]

legend, on 04 April 2012 - 10:45 AM, said:

It's okay if the nature of the proposed multiverse and M-theory is over your head. Quite honestly my understanding is extremely rudimentary. That said, the take home message you should get from this, is that there *are* explanations about the origin of the universe out there in which case your claim that "Scientists have no explanation for the sudden explosion of light and matter" is false and hopefully you won't assert that in the future now that you know.

If you want a very light read on that topic I'd recommend reading The Grand Design. Personally, I would have liked it if Hawking went into much more detail than he did, but if you want very light-weight descriptions that give you the idea of some of the things Physicists are doing now, that will help and is a very fast read.

Legend, does the design mention God or infer maybe it's a design at all? Yeah, I fo sho will read.

[legend]

ohioguy24, on 04 April 2012 - 10:46 AM, said:

Legend, does the design mention God or infer maybe it's a design at all? Yeah, I fo sho will read.

Actually, the book describes why there is no need for God and how the universe is explained more simply without him (i.e., through M-Theory and the multiverse it predicts). It's called the grand design because the multiverse explains why things may appear to people to be designed even though they need not be.

[ohioguy24]

legend, on 04 April 2012 - 10:48 AM, said:

Actually, the book describes why there is no need for God and how the universe is explained more simply without him (i.e., through M-Theory and the multiverse it predicts). It's called the grand design because the multiverse explains why things may appear to people to be designed even though they need not be.

I'll still check it out. I try to take all these theories in and judge accordingly if they all hold water, my problem is understanding them in down to earth sometimes, but I do try, all I can do.

[Scape Zero]

ohioguy24, on 04 April 2012 - 11:06 AM, said:

I'll still check it out. I try to take all these theories in and judge accordingly if they all hold water, my problem is understanding them in down to earth sometimes, but I do try, all I can do.

Not to be a dick, but you wont understand them, and will just say they are wrong.  Like you do with literally every other scientific theory.

[ohioguy24]

Scape Zero, on 04 April 2012 - 01:47 PM, said:

Not to be a dick, but you wont understand them, and will just say they are wrong.  Like you do with literally every other scientific theory.

AS long as they don't use too fancy words and plain English, I can very well understand it.  I think we can all admit some shit goes over our head. Back in the day, Algebra was something I needed to be tutored in, I hated Math. Was awesome in English and Composition, but whenever I had to take Math, I always dreaded those classes. But I got through them, just was a rocky road for me sometimes.

[legend]

The Grand Design is about as laymen as you can be when discussing a topic as complex as M-Theory or quantum mechanics. The thing is, diction independent, these are just difficult concepts. Quantum mechanics requires thinking in very different ways that are not at all intuitive. Hopefully you'll be able to get something from it though.

[-Chris]

ohioguy24, on 04 April 2012 - 07:39 AM, said:

Well, my opinion of the big bang is like most people, it certainly had a beginning, and the notion of "nothing" before it occurred is agreed by many experts. But that's the mystery of the big bang, what was before? Nobody really knows. Except for one, and you know who I believe that to be. And you guys and your little tag teams accusing me of trolling or not being able to debate is pathetic. I give simple reasons without getting to fancy with words and just tell you what I"m feeling.

ohioguy24, on 04 April 2012 - 08:14 AM, said:

that's a good point man. I can only say... nobody can prove that God does not exist. And not  single person on this earth can prove God does exist (except for God Himself) can prove that God does exist. So yeah, it's pointless to bring up arguments or debate. I was just stating my reasons for my faith and what I believe in. That's all. And no disrespect to anyone in here who does not believe in God. It's your choice and I will respect that.

For what it's worth, these are the best posts OG has ever made.


You're correct, we don't know what happened before the Big Bang, nor can anyone prove or disprove the existence of God. It's possible that God does exist and did create the universe; but the absence of an explanation is not proof that he does and did, and that's the root of all these long debates. You consistently assert that he factually exists, and that we are too blind to see the 'evidence'; clearly you can see the discrepancy here, and why it frustrates so many people on this board. It's fine if you believe in God, but you can't prove he exists, nor is there any empirical evidence to back it up.

[puffyshirt]

ohioguy24, on 03 April 2012 - 07:10 PM, said:

You want facts? How about  earth is a perfect distance from the sun to keep it at temperatures to keep us sustained. And then we have the perfect element that gives life. Water. If you want to find Jesus, you must open your heart to Jesus. Its' a very simple to find God. Just gotta be willing.

Do religious people actually use this argument, and then state it as FACT??

Thats just... I can't even... oh boy.

[Irreverent79]

puffyshirt, on 04 April 2012 - 05:50 PM, said:

Do religious people actually use this argument, and then state it as FACT??

Thats just... I can't even... oh boy.

Yep.  No matter how many times or how clearly and brutally it's refuted, there are still people like that guy who repeat it.

[Scape Zero]

ohioguy24, on 04 April 2012 - 02:11 PM, said:

AS long as they don't use too fancy words and plain English, I can very well understand it.  I think we can all admit some shit goes over our head. Back in the day, Algebra was something I needed to be tutored in, I hated Math. Was awesome in English and Composition, but whenever I had to take Math, I always dreaded those classes. But I got through them, just was a rocky road for me sometimes.

So basically "Durrr, if I dun gets it, dat meen da gods did it".

[Scawt]

ohioguy24, on 04 April 2012 - 08:14 AM, said:

that's a good point man. I can only say... nobody can prove that God does not exist. And not  single person on this earth can prove God does exist (except for God Himself) can prove that God does exist. So yeah, it's pointless to bring up arguments or debate.

FYI, that's essentially agnosticism, which is really the only logical belief.

[Irreverent79]

Scawt, on 04 April 2012 - 09:09 PM, said:

FYI, that's essentially agnosticism, which is really the only logical belief.

Also fits fine with Atheism.  Atheism is merely lack of belief in deities.  It doesn't have to entail a positive belief that deities don't exist.

[Scawt]

Irreverent79, on 04 April 2012 - 09:16 PM, said:

Also fits fine with Atheism.  Atheism is merely lack of belief in deities.  It doesn't have to entail a positive belief that deities don't exist.

Yeah, I don't think many athiests would vehemently or aggressively insist that God doesn't exist. That's almost pushing into antitheism, which is all to often confused with atheism.

[Irreverent79]

Scawt, on 04 April 2012 - 09:26 PM, said:

Yeah, I don't think many athiests would vehemently or aggressively insist that God doesn't exist. That's almost pushing into antitheism, which is all to often confused with atheism.

That's pretty close to true.  Usually Atheists who want to specify that they believe a god doesn't exist with some significant degree of certainty call themselves strong or positive atheists.  There are some other terms that are used too and the term antitheism is generally used to describe the belief that belief in deities is actually harmful.  I'm an antitheist, for instance because I think beliefs should be based on reason and evidence and that belief in supernatural propositions is actually potentially harmful for humankind in general, and will likely be more so in the future.

[Irreverent79]

I think the term Antitheist might have actually been coined by Christopher Hitchens.  If not, he's definitely done the most to promote it.

[kaberle]

The main problem with this debate is the way it's framed. Christians will take our conceding the point of being unable to disprove a god exists to not being able to disprove their god exists. They make a massive jump from, you can't disprove god, ergo the trinity is true. I can not disprove a god in the theistic realm, a prime mover or some such, but I can disprove Yahweh and Jesus being divine from the the way they frame their own arguments. Oh how I wish Julian had spared us from this religion.