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      Update on the single-device/browser login restriction issue some people are having.   04/04/2017

      4/7/2017 update: Now people who've been affected by this are saying that it went away on its own after about a week. So I dunno, if this would really hugely inconvenience you try to not log in on additional devices/browsers until the 4.2 update that's supposed to hopefully resolve this for good.   original announcement: For a long time now, D1P has been limited to three logins at a time; logging in on a fourth device or browser would log you out everywhere else. Unfortunately, multiple people have been reporting that they've started experiencing being limited to ONE login at a time.   The good news is, Invision Power Services (the company that makes our forum software) is aware of the issue and will be addressing it in version 4.2 of the software, which is the next big update. The bad news is, they announced about a month ago (the beginning of March 2017) that the update will be coming out in "mid 2017", so we probably have at least another couple of months to go before this is resolved.   In the meantime, I apologize to those affected for the inconvenience, and would suggest to everyone else to not log in to additional devices until this is resolved if this is something you don't want to have to have to deal with. I'm still not 100% sure on why it's not affecting everyone and why it didn't hit everyone affected at the same time, but the timing of when the reports of this started here mostly lines up with when I've seen reports of other sites having this issue starting, and I suspect that the problem is trickling in because of people happening to hit a fourth login that logs them out everywhere else, and then proceeding to be limited to one login at a time after that.
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      D1Pcast Episode 26: The Retro Show   04/19/2017

      It's time to have that talk with your kids. No not THAT talk, the talk about retro games and how much better things were back in our days! We have @Reputator join us and talk a bit about the Scorpio and some retro PC cards. [email protected] us about console retro gaming and how he just got his Super Mario USA. While @Jason tells us about the day his parents threw out all his retro consoles. A sad day for any gamer. So listen and give us your feed back about your retro gaming experience!    
Pikachu

"Why I Pirate" - An Open Letter to Content Creators (Very, very, very long read inside)

491 posts in this topic

By the way, I just love how Xbob42 is among the most reasonable posters in this thread while most of the other (usually cool-headed) ones are completely losing their shit and abandon all resaonableness :P Knee-jerk reactions sure are fun to watch. Especially if they contradict people’s other stances.

For example, take their usual approach to the drug issue. There their reasoning also follows the “keeping it illegal isn’t doing jackshit and ignoring that fact isn’t helping anyone” argument but here it’s all of the sudden invalid and unacceptable. I know, I know, there are some differences but the essence is the same. Instead of coming up with alternative solutions that acknowledge reality and take it into account they put on their blindfolds and ignore the facts.

Who puts on blindfolds and ignore the facts? Valve certainly doesn't. Devs going Free2Play certainly don't. Of course you'd find Xbob's argument to your taste because he's the only one stating that we need to change the industry while not simultaneously condemning pirates (such as yourself) while some of us do not deny the fact that we want to see the industry change, but aren't deluded by the fact that people like you will still illegally download content regardless of how companies cater to your wants and needs.

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Well, “people like me” will stop illegally downloading content if it’s DRM-free. That is all I ever wanted. I can’t remember the last time I illegaly downloaded a video game that did meet these “No DRM” requirements. Probably because it never happened:thumbsup:

Also, he clearly stated that there are people who will indeed obtain content for free but those are not the ones that they should be worried about. They should be worried about “people like me” how don’t pay for their content for reasons that they change and thus turn into paying customers once more!

[...]condemning pirates (such as yourself)

... which does what exactly? Guilt-tripping them into buying stuff? Yeah, sure.

On a different note, I wonder when Brother_Tempus will show up here.

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Well, “people like me” will stop illegally downloading content if it’s DRM-free. That is all I ever wanted. I can’t remember the last time I downloaded a video game that did meet these requirements. Probably because it never happened :thumbsup:

Also, he clearly stated that there are people who will indeed obtain content for free but those are not the ones that they should be worried about. They should be worried about “people like me” how don’t pay for their content for reasons that they change and thus turn into paying customers once more!

... which does what exactly? Guilt-tripping them into buying stuff? Yeah, sure.

On a different note, I wonder when Brother_Tempus will show up here.

Unfortunately, the future is applications like STEAM, so it looks like you'll never turn into a paying customer.

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And that is the reason for this letter. Trying to get content creators to go for alternatives, to alter this impending future.

Besides, as long as there are towers of reason like CDPR and indie devs remaining I will buy a game every now and then :)

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Well, “people like me” will stop illegally downloading content if it’s DRM-free. That is all I ever wanted. I can’t remember the last time I illegaly downloaded a video game that did meet these “No DRM” requirements. Probably because it never happened:thumbsup:

Also, he clearly stated that there are people who will indeed obtain content for free but those are not the ones that they should be worried about. They should be worried about “people like me” how don’t pay for their content for reasons that they change and thus turn into paying customers once more!

... which does what exactly? Guilt-tripping them into buying stuff? Yeah, sure.

On a different note, I wonder when Brother_Tempus will show up here.

Karma is a bitch, even to petty thieves like you. That's a fact.

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Great post, will read again. Next time try actually adding something to the discussion though, okay :kiss: ?

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And that is the reason for this letter. Trying to get content creators to go for alternatives, to alter this impending future.

Besides, as long as there are towers of reason like CDPR and indie devs remaining I will buy a game every now and then :)

CDPR isn't exactly a tower of reason. Especially considering that they released their game with DRM and took it out after community backlash. As far as Indie devs, the majority of them do far better under Steam than they do on other Content providers and even Desura. Without Steam, the Indie community wouldn't thrive as well as it has the last couple of years. We'd still only have a fucking Popcap games section.

STEAM is pretty much the savior of PC gaming allowing it to become more mainstream and friendly to the casual gamer. It has done more for PC gaming than any dev going "Oh, I'll remove a redundant security measure from my software to make pirates happy." and that is fact whether you like it not.

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After community backslash? Didn’t they say from the very beginning that this was meant to prevent groups from cracking and distributing it before the official release and that they would remove it afterwards (which they did)?

Oh and what I forgot to add: My behavior when it comes to console gaming also belies your view of me. There is (or at least was) no DRM and thus I gladly buy them. The most recent one about a month ago.

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I read the whole thing, and all I see is a whining bitch who doesn't want to pay for some stuff. As far as I am concerned, he can go fuck himself. There's a reason why any law enforcement polygraph asks you if you've ever stolen anything... and if you say no, they ask you if you've downloaded anything for free without paying for it. After 2 hours, unless you're a sociopath, you will fail that polygraph... every time. So you know what I say? Have fun looking for a job if you download shit. Have fun failing polygraphs and losing out on job opportunities. What a tool.

who the fuck takes polygraphs? lmao!

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I didn’t even get that post. Isn’t he saying that EVERYONE (except sociopaths) will fail that polygraph? So then how are people who illegally downloaded something worse off? Or did I misunderstand him?

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I'm probably one of the only ones here that is (for the most part) totally fine with AAA games being released at $50/$60. If you don't want to pay that much, fine, wait 6 months / a year / two years when the price will drop to $40, $25, and $15, respectively. Do I think that there are a lot of games being released that have no business being $60? Sure, but I'm fine with that price point on the whole. I don't see how you can justify piracy in that scenario without resorting to "but I want it noooow!"

I also think it's kind of ironic that PC games (with Steam) have become a kind of DD haven, and have managed to keep things as simple as possible. If I download a game on XBL, I'd better fucking hope that's the last Xbox or Live Account I'll ever have, otherwise I'll have to jump through flaming, fucking spiked hoops if I ever want to play that game again. Valve keeps it simple and *gasp* the world didn't implode.

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After community backslash? Didn’t they say from the very beginning that this was meant to prevent groups from cracking and distributing it before the official release and that they would remove it afterwards (which they did)?

Oh and what I forgot to add: My behavior when it comes to console gaming also belies your view of me. There is (or at least was) no DRM and thus I gladly buy them. The most recent one about a month ago.

You do know that consoles too have "Security Measures" akin to DRM that prevent you from doing things as trivial as moving save games from one console to another or even accessing the online portion if you purchased the game used. So you're being a hypocrite. If you don't support Steam because for whatever reason, then you shouldn't support consoles for those same reasons. If your only argument for actually supporting console gaming is that you can in turn resell the game, stop right there, because that's a piss poor argument if any, especially from you.

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I'm probably one of the only ones here that is (for the most part) totally fine with AAA games being released at $50/$60. If you don't want to pay that much, fine, wait 6 months / a year / two years when the price will drop to $40, $25, and $15, respectively. Do I think that there are a lot of games being released that have no business being $60? Sure, but I'm fine with that price point on the whole. I don't see how you can justify piracy in that scenario without resorting to "but I want it noooow!"

I also think it's kind of ironic that PC games (with Steam) have become a kind of DD haven, and have managed to keep things as simple as possible. If I download a game on XBL, I'd better fucking hope that's the last Xbox or Live Account I'll ever have, otherwise I'll have to jump through flaming, fucking spiked hoops if I ever want to play that game again. Valve keeps it simple and *gasp* the world didn't implode.

BUT YOU CAN'T RESELL THE GAME! THUS IS BAD FOR DEMUT AND WILL CAUSE THE DOWNFALL OF PC GAMING AS WE KNOW IT!

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Would you like your car to have DRM that prevents you from reselling, modifying or letting another person drive it?

You do know that consoles too have "Security Measures" akin to DRM that prevent you from doing things as trivial as moving save games from one console to another or even accessing the online portion if you purchased the game used.

They do? Not the ones that I play, it seems (PS1/2, GC).

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Would you like your car to have DRM that prevents you from reselling, modifying or letting another person drive it?

They do? Not the ones that I play, it seems (PS1/2, GC).

1) When I purchase a car, I own it after my lease is completed. Nobody can tell me what to do with it. That is the whole reason for Titles. It denotes that I purchased and paid for the vehicle in full and that the prior owner (Lien-holder) relinquishes all rights of ownership to me. I am therefor entitled to do anything with my vehicle that does not violate the law. All you get with software is a license to use the data contained within the physical medium or to download the data from a digital vendor for personal use. You do not own the data, just a license to use the data. What you do with it in your own home is up to you, but once you start sharing the data with others, you're violating the license agreement and have thus broken the law. It's even worse if you go ahead and sell unauthorized duplicates.

2) Sorry, but the rest of us like to play new games every now and then and not live 10 years in the past. But we really wouldn't mind HD remakes of awesome games which we are getting. Oh wait, but you'd need to make an account on PSN or XBL or STEAM and that goes against your principles. But hey, I guess your principles go to the way side when you can get it for free (Like Skyrim) and then you don't mind so much.

This is exactly why people look at pirates with such disdain. You guys are jokes with weaksauce arguments and justifications.

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Where did you ever see me justifying it? Stop lumping me together already.

1) When I purchase a car, I own it after my lease is completed. Nobody can tell me what to do with it. That is the whole reason for Titles. It denotes that I purchased and paid for the vehicle in full and that the prior owner (Lien-holder) relinquishes all rights of ownership to me. I am therefor entitled to do anything with my vehicle that does not violate the law.

... and this explains why you should be able to own cars but not video games how?

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Where did you ever see me justifying it? Stop lumping me together already.

... and this explains why you should be able to own cars but not video games how?

Every game has a Eula. The Eula states that you are not allowed to resell the license. You do not own the data, you cannot replicate more than one copy of the data for archiving purposes and you cannot sell the data. It is only a license to use the data in a manner befitting within your own home. This is how digital vendors can prevent you from reselling games that you purchase from them. As far as retail goes, they're still following old 1908 "First Sale" doctrine which states that the initial purchaser can do as they wish with the product that they bought, including reselling it. The only reason the law has not changed is because of corporate and public pressure. If the Government wanted to crack down on GameStop and all of GameStops customers for violating EULA for various purchasing and reselling violations, then the Government can royally fuck up GameStop if they want to. Considering how much of a cash cow Used Games are, people look the other way despite blatant contractual violations.

Also, Cars do not have EULA's. Once you pay the car off it's yours. Video games on the other hand, do have EULA's and you never truly own them. When you purchase the game, open that box/download it and start it up for the first time, you've accepted the contractual agreement between you and the developer/publisher whether you read the EULA or not. You are now legally bound to it. Problem is, nobody enforces the contract because it's unfeasible to go after 100+ million people for contractual violations. They can go after specific violations that are absolutely blatant and damaging, but chances are, you'll never, ever be bothered for EULA violations.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ProCD,_Inc._v._Zeidenberg

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I think you’re still not getting it. What I want to know from you is why you think that we OUGHT TO own cars but we don’t OUGHT TO own video games. Or is that not what you believe?

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If the dude took the time he used to write a fucking 7 chapter letter about why he likes to steal shit and did some work instead he could have earned some money to buy shit.

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If you don't think a game is worth $60 then wait till it either goes on sale or the price is reduced to a level that you believe it is worth. An example for me is Bioshock 2. I wasn't a fan of the original Bioshock. Bioshock 2 just hit $5 on Steam. Guess what. I bought it. Steam and THQ just got money from me that they never would have if the price didn't drop far enough.

This guy just screams "I want it now but I can't afford the price". Be patient and let the game fall to a good price range. It isn't like the media will go stale over time.

I think you’re still not getting it. What I want to know from you is why you think that we OUGHT TO own cars but we don’t OUGHT TO own video games. Or is that not what you believe?

I would say the biggest thing about owning a car is that I can't make several copies of the car and give them to other people. It is also a physical item that deteriorates over time.

Video games are digital items. Simple to copy and doesn't deteriorate over time.

Comparing a car to video games is apples to oranges.

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I think you’re still not getting it. What I want to know from you is why you think that we OUGHT TO own cars but we don’t OUGHT TO own video games. Or is that not what you believe?

I don't think we ought to own video games. Just like we don't own telephone numbers or movies or television shows and so on and so forth. Video games are an entertainment service, when we buy a copy, we are actually buying the license to view and interact with the content for entertainment purposes. Only Publishers own the actual content on disc unless their contractual agreement with the developer allows the dev to maintain ownership of the final product. It seems like you're the only one not understanding this.

Ford makes a vehicle, ships it to the dealership, you sign a contractual agreement to pay the lien-holder for the vehicle for a determined sum and you get the car. The car is not under your ownership until you make payment in full. Once you make payment in full, you have full rights to the machine in question, but you do not have rights to the intellectual property used in the development of said machine. IE: You have no rights over the schematics and manufacturing process of the car or the name itself, you do have rights to the property as that is what a vehicle is. It's property and after you pay the property is then relinquished to you. Video games are not property, they're a service, an entertainment service that you paid for. The data (intellectual property) belongs to the pub/dev and they have allowed you to use the data for a fee.

The problem with "First Sale" doctrine is that it hasn't been updated for the digital age. It was made in 1908, put into law in 1978 and nobody has fucked with it since.

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I do agree that with the shift in media availability, business models need to change or die. Publishers are using an old business model and trying to patch it to prevent piracy and its costing the legit consumers more money in addition to annoyances in DRM. Play an Ubisoft SP game when servers goes offline? Want to play a previous years sports game online? Want to skip the fucking "Do not pirate" preview at the beginning of a movie? That shit is all garbage.

Steams huge price drops are a counter to slow sales that may or may not be due to piracy. The industry is trying to plateau in revenue growth but that is unacceptable to investors so they try to find areas to make more money. So theres this made up number where they predict they can gain more money.

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Lucian04, I still don’t understand why you think that the two OUGHT TO (here, I emphasized it even more for you) be treated differently. Why shouldn’t car manufacturers prevent you from reselling that car or letting another person drive it (by linking your retina to the vehicle and requiring a scan to start the engine, for example)? And then why shouldn’t they demand modifying that car (which could be used to remove that requirement) to become illegal? After all, wouldn’t that increase their sales? No more used car sales! Sure, it’d make it a pain in the ass for the customers but hey, that’s no different from DRM.

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Cars lose value, eventually nobody will want them. Intellectual (intangible) property doesn't really have a perceived value that depreciates. That's why. Now you're just grasping at straws.

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Errr ... when was the last time that you looked at the prices of old games? They, too, lose value at first but then get valuable again (just like cars) as they are getting older. Weak argument, bro.

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Lucian04, I still don’t understand why you think that the two OUGHT TO (here, I emphasized it even more for you) be treated differently. Why shouldn’t car manufacturers prevent you from reselling that car or letting another person drive it (by linking your retina to the vehicle and requiring a scan to start the engine, for example)? And then why shouldn’t they demand modifying that car (which could be used to remove that requirement) to become illegal? After all, wouldn’t that increase their sales? No more used car sales! Sure, it’d make it a pain in the ass for the customers but hey, that’s no different from DRM.

Used car sales don't hurt new car sales. You buy a used car you buy the previous owners problems. Not to mention the car has deteriorated A LOT over time. Rust, general wear and tear such as brakes. The more use the car gets the more the price and overall usefulness will degrade.

A game either works or it doesn't. If I buy a used game it will play EXACTLY like the new game.

My car is 10 years old. I just had to dump $1000 into it for some wear and tear items. Half-Life is 13 years old. It still plays exactly like it did at launch and I haven't had to toss a dime into making it work properly as it aged. The only reason HL reduced in price is because of the drop in demand for a game that has been on sale for 13 years.

Errr ... when was the last time that you looked at the prices of old games? They, too, lose value at first but then get valuable again (just like cars) as they are getting older. Weak argument, bro.

Old Collectables have never been in direct competition with new products.

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A game either works or it doesn't. If I buy a used game it will play EXACTLY like the new game.

Have you ever heard of “scratches” and the like :thinking: ?

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Errr ... when was the last time that you looked at the prices of old games? They, too, lose value at first but then get valuable again (just like cars) as they are getting older. Weak argument, bro.

It's as weak as your own.

Vehicles lose value over time. Any value placed on them after the fact is perceived value based on scarcity and whatever special features that they may have had (or had added to them) that has been lost over time. It is irrelevant to the current argument. Fact of the matter is that you are given a "TITLE" (keyword btw) which declares your ownership of the vehicle. It is tangible property that you paid an exorbitant amount of money for that covers all of the costs of the vehicles from design to manufacturing. You did not pay whatever it cost to design, develop and manufacture a video game, you have no ownership rights, only the right to use the physical or digital representation of the final product. You do not get a deed or a title or anything declaring that "DEMUT OWNS SKYRIM" because you simply do not own the game. You get a contract stating that you can use the game, you don't get a contract saying that you can sell the game because you now own it.

And as far as vehicle manufacturers taking steps to prevent used sales, they could if they wanted to, but they're not selling their intellectual property. You don't get the design schematics along with your purchase of a new FORD. Used sales also do not eat into New sales, unlike with Video games. You do however get it with a copy of a game if you have the know how and tools in order to dissect the information contained within the data.

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