Girl defeats rival team, secret investigation begins to see if she's transgender after loser parents accuse champion

[stepee]

1 minute ago, unogueen said:

The value of competitiveness is not pre-affixed to interconflict. There's a lot of flanderization going on and I don't like it.

 

flanderize deeeeeeeez nutttttz

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Kal-El814 said:

Comparing someone who is in the top percent of a percent of a percent of male tennis players who have ever walked the earth to Serena Williams proves absolutely nothing. Again, sexual dimorphism exists, and Serena Williams would rinse 99%+ of men, and today’s men would cream peak male players from the not too distant past. Looking at outliers is pointless.

 

If you were to compare any age group post puberty at any skill level, the results are the same: the average biological male has an advantage over the average biological female. I really don't know what YOUR point is, unless you actually disagree with this? And in purely athletic competitions, those relatively small differences result in large differences in outcome. 

 

Like, go to your local high school when the boys and girls soccer teams have a scrimmage and tell me you think it doesn't matter for the non-outlier level athletes  

[unogueen]

Isn't that the basis of patriarchy? The promise to protect from violence?

[stepee]

i mean fine if all people want is to make sure things are fair then adjust the sports themselves so that biological differences matter less, make the regulation height for the rim in basketball 5ft

[Amazatron]

13 minutes ago, Kal-El814 said:

Again, feel free to get to a point at any time.

 

We’re just now getting to the point where some people accept that gender is a social construct. People need to acknowledge that sex is ALSO a social construct. And before anyone’s anus prolapses, I don not mean that biology is not relevant. I merely mean that “sex” is a term made up by people to categorize natural phenomena that has turned out to be significantly more nuanced than male and female. There are a non trivial amount of intersex people, our understanding of how what we presently understand to be sex hormones truly impact development, athletic performance, etc., is just beginning to come together.

 

So with that in mind it’s not that sex is a useless determinant, it IS a relevant one. But the playing field is never going to be level. My first serious girlfriend was barely 5’ tall, she was good at gymnastics and couldn’t have been a high jumper. My wife is 6’ tall, she was one of the best high jumpers in Mass growing up, but if you asked her to do a cartwheel her spine would tear out of her body and she’d fuckin die.

 

You claimed using outliers is flawed, so I used data for the collective. Yet here you are trying to argue by anecdotal evidence of your outlier (under 5 feet and over 6 foot) relationships.

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

The ideal solution would be to genetically modify competitive athletes to the point where such differences would no longer exist.

[unogueen]

Sex and attraction is a gradient because every reproductive act is an act of variance. Survival of the fittest doesn't mean having to bend, but to have the diversity established to withstand the constant of change. Humans are now so terrified of their flesh that a mangled body in styrofoam is markedly more acceptable. We are well beyond 'need'. It's greed and violence that makes the world today.

[Jason]

1 minute ago, unogueen said:

Sex and attraction is a gradient because every reproductive act is an act of variance. Survival of the fittest doesn't mean having to bend, but to have the diversity established to withstand the constant of change. Humans are now so terrified of their flesh that a mangled body in styrofoam is markedly more acceptable. We are well beyond 'need'. It's greed and violence that makes the world today.

 

Shut up Flanders. 

[stepee]

kal’s point is everyone has advantages and disadvantages over everyone, people are already born with huge advantages over others, and those usually end up becoming the top atheletes etc, so get over it if it’s fair or not 

[unogueen]

 

[stepee]

unogueen’s point is they want to be held

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, stepee said:

kal’s point is everyone has advantages and disadvantages over everyone, people are already born with huge advantages over others, and those usually end up becoming the top atheletes etc, so get over it if it’s fair or not 

Are you in favor of getting rid of gender based divisions in sports? If not, why?

 

Same questions for @Kal-El814

[Amazatron]

5 minutes ago, stepee said:

kal’s point is everyone has advantages and disadvantages over everyone, people are already born with huge advantages over others, and those usually end up becoming the top atheletes etc, so get over it if it’s fair or not 

 

So why have separate men's and women's sports? Let's just combine it all and let it sort out yes? Fair or not....

[Kal-El814]

22 minutes ago, sblfilms said:

If you were to compare any age group post puberty at any skill level, the results are the same: the average biological male has an advantage over the average biological female. I really don't know what YOUR point is, unless you actually disagree with this? And in purely athletic competitions, those relatively small differences result in large differences in outcome. 

 

Like, go to your local high school when the boys and girls soccer teams have a scrimmage and tell me you think it doesn't matter for the non-outlier level athletes  

 

My point is that shitty people look at girls / womens sport, see someone crushing it, and assuming they must be a guy / male because their grasp of these things starts and stops at “girls weak boys strong.” Or that thought gets brought up as a justification for dragging women athletes when they succeed as seen by all the internet phrenologists who look at someone like Ledecky and think she’s a man, or the OP in this thread.

 

The “well actually, boys are stronger and faster” crowd offers no insight, no value, no propositions. It is peak reply guy behavior and they should be encouraged to be silent.

[stepee]

Just now, sblfilms said:

Are you in favor of getting rid of gender based divisions in sports? If not, why?

 

Same questions for @Kal-El814

 

it’s really really hard for me to care about sports for long enough to answer this, but I say yes get rid of them and just let whoever play whatever with whomever, sports should just be about building team work skills nothing else should matter

[stepee]

1 minute ago, Amazatron said:

 

So why have separate men's and women's sports? Let's just combine it all and let it sort out yes? Fair or not....

 

sure

[Kal-El814]

1 hour ago, sblfilms said:

Are you in favor of getting rid of gender based divisions in sports? If not, why?

 

Same questions for @Kal-El814

 

No, I acknowledge that sexual dimorphism is a thing and I know that the destruction of gender / sex based sports and leagues would, on account of patriarchy, make things shittier for women’s sport in general.

 

None of that makes what took place in the OP any less shitty and dumb.

[b_m_b_m_b_m]

No one is transitioning at any level to dominate sports especially with the vitriol and abuse trans people get just for existing so this whole discussion is fucking stupid

[unogueen]

Just now, b_m_b_m_b_m said:

No one is transitioning at any level to dominate sports especially with the vitriol and abuse trans people get just for existing so this whole discussion is fucking stupid

The fear is the breakthrough, like Caster Semenya. Nevermind logic.

[unogueen]

White plight all over again.

[unogueen]

14 minutes ago, stepee said:

unogueen’s point is they want to be held

???

[b_m_b_m_b_m]

2 minutes ago, unogueen said:

The fear is the breakthrough, like Caster Semenya. Nevermind logic.

The fear is misguided 

[unogueen]

1 minute ago, b_m_b_m_b_m said:

The fear is misguided 

An invisible fear is most dangerous. It may changes as time allows, unlike real dangers.

[b_m_b_m_b_m]

2 minutes ago, unogueen said:

An invisible fear is most dangerous. It may changes as time allows, unlike real dangers.

The invisible fear is what they’re afraid of yet these same chuds denied that covid was anything other than the flu or a Chinese hoax you can’t honestly believe this

 

they just need someone to hate and this is their target for now. 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Kal-El814 said:

No, I acknowledge that sexual dimorphism is a thing and I know that the destruction of gender / sex based sports and leagues would, on account of patriarchy, make things shittier for women’s sport in general.

 

None of that makes what took place in the OP any less shitty and dumb.

So why are you arguing against the disinfection as though it doesn’t make the (very obvious) difference it does?

 

Don't try and walk it back by refocusing on the thing we all agree on  

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

3 minutes ago, sblfilms said:

So why are you arguing against the disinfection as though it doesn’t make the (very obvious) difference it does?

 

Don't try and walk it back by refocusing on the thing we all agree on  

 

Not all of us agree on it!

[unogueen]

22 minutes ago, b_m_b_m_b_m said:

The invisible fear is what they’re afraid of yet these same chuds denied that covid was anything other than the flu or a Chinese hoax you can’t honestly believe this

 

they just need someone to hate and this is their target for now. 

There is no locus to this story. These political attacks specify individual victims for a reason. Fucking put your body on the line or fuck off.

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

Whatever physiological differences that may or may not exist between post-pubescent athletes, they are simply not significant enough at least at the secondary school level to justify barring trans athletes from competing in the category within which they identify.

[Kal-El814]

57 minutes ago, sblfilms said:

So why are you arguing against the disinfection as though it doesn’t make the (very obvious) difference it does?

 

Don't try and walk it back by refocusing on the thing we all agree on  

I am always going to push back / “overreact” to this because every year we suffer through thought pieces about how morons like Aaron Rodgers are the smartest man in the room, or listen to Tom Brady talk about how he doesn’t get a sunburn because he stays hydrated, or countless other examples of male athletic excellence that go almost entirely unchallenged… while women in sport often cannot excel without accusations of being born male, or trans women athletes cannot exist without the suspicion of cheating, without sagacious dudes popping off about how men are stronger, etc. 

 

So it’s not about dimorphism not being a thing, it’s about this specific topic coming up and the suspicion that women who excel are actually men, which to me is the subtext whenever the “but actually men are stronger” comment comes up apropos of nothing. 

[TwinIon]

1 hour ago, SaysWho? said:

This really misses the point so spectacularly.

 

Not many men have Michael Phelps' genes or size 14 feet. Not many men have his lactic acid advantage! Not many women have Ledecky's proportions, and most women are not 6' or close to it. Most women won't come close to Ledecky, but we're comfortable allowing smaller women try to overtake her even though they have little shot.

 

If you grow up to be 5'9", you are going to have a hard time competing against professional swimmers, basketball players, football players, volleyball, etc. Take a guess between the 7' Big Show and 5'8" Daniel Bryan as to who had to work far much longer and harder to get any kind of main event push by the WWE writing team.

 

At the end of the day, those stats you've brought up are meaningless. If we accept that people like Phelps and Ledecky can compete even though they have natural gifts that others don't, and accept that that's an "even playing field" based on gender alone, then we should probably accept that some people are going to have an easier time winning at sports through sheer luck of genetics despite being the same gender and that it's not actually an even playing field.

I don't think I've ever heard anyone argue that sport is some kind of perfectly even playing field where individual genetics don't play a significant role.

 

I quoted your proposal to do away with gender based segregation and instead use some kind of size class system. I'm only pointing out that, even if you control for size, having men and women compete together wouldn't be very close.

 

Hell, genetics really only accounts for a fraction of the difference in many sports. There are always a million stories in the Olympics about how this athlete didn't have the right equipment or that one had to work two jobs instead of training full time. A no level is sport a perfectly even playing field, and I don't think I've ever heard an argument that it is.

[unogueen]

Biology is a factor, so is anthropology. For all the modern 'progress' there are sunken ships full of secrets.

[SaysWho?]

3 minutes ago, TwinIon said:

I don't think I've ever heard anyone argue that sport is some kind of perfectly even playing field where individual genetics don't play a significant role.

 

I quoted your proposal to do away with gender based segregation and instead use some kind of size class system. I'm only pointing out that, even if you control for size, having men and women compete together wouldn't be very close.

 

Hell, genetics really only accounts for a fraction of the difference in many sports. There are always a million stories in the Olympics about how this athlete didn't have the right equipment or that one had to work two jobs instead of training full time. A no level is sport a perfectly even playing field, and I don't think I've ever heard an argument that it is.

 

Still missing the point spectacularly.

 

I don't care if my solution isn't the 100% amazing solution; it's not my job to think of one. But when we keep contributing to trans people committing suicide to the point that a woman can't be great unless we investigate if she's trans, I don't really give a shit about the bad-faith debating about "advantages" since anyone going up against Michael Phelps has disadvantages no matter what they do, and any woman going up against Ledecky has disadvantages no matter what they do.

 

Your last paragraph makes my point even more.

[CitizenVectron]

In the end...all competitive sports are stupid because they rely on completely artificial boundaries. People can say that it makes sense for men and women to be separated because of differences in average muscle/weight, etc. But then why not separate all sports by muscle/weight, even within sex groupings? There are going to be some 6'2" female swimmers that are better than 4'9" male swimmers, and 6'4" male swimmers that are also better than those 4'9" male swimmers. So why do the 4'9" male swimmers have to compete against the taller men, but not the taller women? If birth sex creates a long-term advantage, then so do other genetic things like height, muscle structure, etc. If we divide and exclude by sex, then why not all these other things that exclude competitors? Yes, a few sports do (wrestling, for example), but the vast majority don't.

 

Hell, if we have to have competitive sports, then pre-test a bunch of athletes on a variety of things (speed, strength, endurance, whatever) and then organize by that. In some sports at the highest end it might be all men, but in some levels it would be a mix, etc. Separate by performance (which is affected by both genetics and training), rather than all these other artificial things.

 

 

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

3 minutes ago, CitizenVectron said:

Hell, if we have to have competitive sports, then pre-test a bunch of athletes on a variety of things (speed, strength, endurance, whatever) and then organize by that. In some sports at the highest end it might be all men, but in some levels it would be a mix, etc. Separate by performance (which is affected by both genetics and training), rather than all these other artificial things.

 

Yeah - that's what I was thinking as well!

 

Performance metrics-based categories would be a very interesting way to approach competitive athletics!

[Guest]

People who don’t like sports trying to fix something in sports is hilarious