Girl defeats rival team, secret investigation begins to see if she's transgender after loser parents accuse champion

[Jwheel86]

School sports doesn't matter, except to the kids and parents who are riding on the hope of a scholarship or the resume building it adds to or way to keep a kid out of trouble. Even if that hope is small and ultimately pointless, I think you guys wildly underestimate the political power of pissed off parents at BoE meeting. Change how AP classes work and you'll get a similar reaction. 

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

4 minutes ago, sblfilms said:

So rulesets themselves have congealed around certain competitive staples.

 

Ergo, those competitive staples and the rule sets that embody them are representative of the de facto culture of the sport, regardless of the external cultural milieu from which they originated.

[Ghost_MH]

6 minutes ago, sblfilms said:

If this is your point of view, than certainly it does not matter. But shocker, many people don’t hold your view that high school and college athletics don’t matter. Parents and kids spend an awfully large amount of their time dedicated to athletic pursuits, and there are significant financial implications around the performance of youth and college athletics. It being unimportant to you doesn’t make it unimportant.

 

The only reason there are a substantial number of women athletes at the high school and college level, and the financial awards that come with them, is the sex segregated classification. Far fewer would articulate if they had to compete directly with biological male athletes.

 

If you are only looking to have fun as @b_m_b_m_b_m pretends this is only about, there are non-competitive sports organizations of which there are many to choose from.

 

No, I get it. What I'm saying is that all that money pouring into high school and college sports is a thousands times more competitively advantageous than the minuscule number of trans people that make up the population. You can't argue that trans kids have a competitive advantage while also not admitting that kids from wealthy schools aren't doing more to ruin the competitive nature of sports played by children. Nobody is arguing that midwest high schools should spend less on high school sports, but there certainly are a ton of arguments out there about how trans kids shouldn't be allowed to compete and have fun with their own classmates.

[CitizenVectron]

If we're just going by which group's bell curve has a longer top tail than another, then should we force people of east African descent to compete in separate marathons than the Irish? Or force people from the US athlete programs into a separate Olympics than south Asia?

[b_m_b_m_b_m]

12 minutes ago, sblfilms said:

I don’t think you can think of one because there are no good examples of this! Part of why your assertion falls flat is that many games we play are an amalgamation of games from many different cultures over a long period of time. So rulesets themselves have congealed around certain competitive staples.

 

But what we do see a TON of variance in from one culture to the next are the unwritten rules of the same sports. 
 

If this is your point of view, than certainly it does not matter. But shocker, many people don’t hold your view that high school and college athletics don’t matter. Parents and kids spend an awfully large amount of their time dedicated to athletic pursuits, and there are significant financial implications around the performance of youth and college athletics. It being unimportant to you doesn’t make it unimportant.

 

The only reason there are a substantial number of women athletes at the high school and college level, and the financial awards that come with them, is the sex segregated classification. Far fewer would articulate if they had to compete directly with biological male athletes.

 

If you are only looking to have fun as @b_m_b_m_b_m pretends this is only about, there are non-competitive sports organizations of which there are many to choose from.

It’s more than just fun but the stakes aren’t high enough for the fuss about trans athletes to be worth anyone getting upset about their existing and competing

[Guest]

Y’all are ridiculous and I love your for it.

[Amazatron]

So how do you feel about Lia Thomas who transitioned and became an NCAA champion in women’s swimming?
 

Still just fun and games? Or do you want to draw an arbitrary line between collegiate/high school?

[b_m_b_m_b_m]

There was only like 2 trans athletes in the whole state of Utah iirc when the governor vetoed the bill there. 
 

people aren’t transitioning to “dominate” sports 

 

the real concern that literally front and center in this topic is that trans panic is a tool to harass cis and trans people who don’t perfectly conform to society’s notion of masculinity or femininity. That’s the biggest issue and not where should we “let” trans kids play sport at *an amateur level*

[Kal-El814]

6 minutes ago, Amazatron said:

So how do you feel about Lia Thomas who transitioned and became an NCAA champion in women’s swimming?
 

Still just fun and games? Or do you want to draw an arbitrary line between collegiate/high school?

Has Thomas followed established rules for womens competition?

[Amazatron]

Just now, b_m_b_m_b_m said:

There was only like 2 trans athletes in the whole state of Utah iirc when the governor vetoed the bill there. 
 

people aren’t transitioning to “dominate” sports 

 

the real concern that literally front and center in this topic is that trans panic is a tool to harass cis and trans people who don’t perfectly conform to society’s notion of masculinity or femininity. That’s the biggest issue and not where should we “let” trans kids play sport at *an amateur level*

That’s not the argument in this thread. That side will push any bullshit agenda to discriminate, like the ridiculous issue of transgenders in bathrooms.

 

I’m trying to address the physical advantage of the average male vs the average female in competitive sports. I’ve yet to see a compelling argument, just a bunch of “who cares” or “what about Kenyans in marathons”.

[Ghost_MH]

5 minutes ago, Amazatron said:

So how do you feel about Lia Thomas who transitioned and became an NCAA champion in women’s swimming?
 

Still just fun and games? Or do you want to draw an arbitrary line between collegiate/high school?

 

Good for her because it don't matter. I would love for you to explain to me how college swimming or any college sport is very important and worthy of all the frothing and legislation?

 

That woman has been swimming since she was younger than my kids. Are you suggesting she didn't work her ass off?

[TUFKAK]

Two Namibian Sprinters Banned From Olympics 400-Meter Event at Olympics

WWW.INSIDER.COM

---

Christine Mboma and Beatrice Masilingi were disqualified from the 400m event at the Olympics for having testosterone levels that surpassed IOC rules.

this is always a nice little caveat to this argument.

[Amazatron]

25 minutes ago, Ghost_MH said:

 

Good for her because it don't matter. I would love for you to explain to me how college swimming or any college sport is very important and worthy of all the frothing and legislation?

 

That woman has been swimming since she was younger than my kids. Are you suggesting she didn't work her ass off?

Huh? What the hell does working her ass off have to do with anything? And why would anything I said suggest that?

[b_m_b_m_b_m]

21 minutes ago, Amazatron said:

That’s not the argument in this thread. That side will push any bullshit agenda to discriminate, like the ridiculous issue of transgenders in bathrooms.

 

I’m trying to address the physical advantage of the average male vs the average female in competitive sports. I’ve yet to see a compelling argument, just a bunch of “who cares” or “what about Kenyans in marathons”.

Who cares is correct though

[Ghost_MH]

42 minutes ago, Amazatron said:

Huh? What the hell does working her ass off have to do with anything? And why would anything I said suggest that?

 

Sorry. Then I lost the point of bringing her up in this discussion. Just completely over my head.

 

My only point is this. Just because some parents and some kids are hyper competitive, we have a large portion of this country that wants to legislate away another kid's ability to play a sport with their classmates. That's wild bullshit. Kids, yes. I turn 40 next week, all these high school and college athletes are kids. Trans kids already go through enough in life. Nobody is transitioning in order to play sports. That's not a thing, even if a bunch of crazy folks were blaming China of doing that a few years back. Let the kids have fun. If kids really want to be competitive in their sport let them jump straight to the D league, try to get drafted to A ball, join a league in another country, or whatever. They're the ones trying to stop 1% of their peers from playing with them. The trans kids just want to be left alone and be able to live their lives.

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

Regarding Lia Thomas:

 

Why the data shows trans swimming champion Lia Thomas didn’t have an unfair advantage

WWW.INDEPENDENT.CO.UK

---

Lia Thomas: Trans swimmer didn’t have unfair advantage, data shows

 

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

7 hours ago, Amazatron said:

I’m trying to address the physical advantage of the average male vs the average female in competitive sports. I’ve yet to see a compelling argument, just a bunch of “who cares” or “what about Kenyans in marathons”.

 

I have absolutely no idea how to address this, nor does anyone else in this thread.

 

But what I do know is that the solution shouldn't be prohibiting trans athletes from competing in the category within which they identify.

[BloodyHell]

8 hours ago, sblfilms said:

.

 

If you are only looking to have fun as @b_m_b_m_b_m pretends this is only about, there are non-competitive sports organizations of which there are many to choose from.

Exactly, like I said in my first post, absolutely nobody should be prevented from playing rec league sports, but that maybe trans women shouldn't be taking scholarships from biological women  or spots on collegiate and professional teams. 

 

The idea of separation by height and weight instead of sex just doesn't work, and suggesting it shows how little people understand sport. Put Mugsy Bogues in his prime in the WNBA, and he'd dominate it. Mugsy is 5'3. 

 

And then, what about fighting sports? Do we allow them to box against other biological women? Fallon Fox, almost completely untrained, went 5 wins straight against fighters who trained their whole adult lives, before one of the best in the world in that division (Ashley Evans-Smith) finally beat her. 

 

I'm definitely not claiming to have all the answers, but some of the ideas in here are way, way too far out in left field, and are clearly by people who have never competed. 

[BloodyHell]

8 hours ago, Ghost_MH said:

 

Good for her because it don't matter. I would love for you to explain to me how college swimming or any college sport is very important and worthy of all the frothing and legislation?

 

That woman has been swimming since she was younger than my kids. Are you suggesting she didn't work her ass off?

No, we're suggesting she went from 400th ranked college swimmer as a male, to an NCAA champion as a woman. 

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

If women's competitive sports are so "fragile" that the presence of a practically non-existent problem could upset the whole apple cart of in such a way as is being suggested by those who think it heralds their "doom", then perhaps they are too "fragile" to exist in the first place.

 

That is the most logical outcome of this discussion, wouldn't we agree?

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

27 minutes ago, BloodyHell said:

I'm definitely not claiming to have all the answers, but some of the ideas in here are way, way too far out in left field, and are clearly by people who have never competed. 

 

Which makes them inherently superior to any ideas forwarded by those who have "competed".

[BloodyHell]

9 minutes ago, Commissar SFLUFAN said:

If women's competitive sports are so "fragile" that the presence of a practically non-existent problem could upset the whole apple cart in such a way as is being suggested by those who think it heralds their "doom", then perhaps they are too "fragile" to exist in the first place.

 

That is the most logical outcome of this discussion, wouldn't we agree?

I mean, unfortunately, a lot of women's sports are that fragile, so maybe you're right. The WNBA loses 10m a year, making about 70m in revenue, the NBA subsidizes it, because their revenue is closer to 8bn.

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

Right - it's settled then!

 

Rather than permit trans athletes to compete under their claimed identification, it would be preferable to see women's competitive athletics go away entirely.

[DPCyric]

22 minutes ago, Commissar SFLUFAN said:

Right - it's settled then!

 

Rather than permit trans athletes to compete under their claimed identification, it would be preferable to see women's competitive athletics go away entirely.

 

But what about watching them play volleyball 

[Ghost_MH]

30 minutes ago, BloodyHell said:

Exactly, like I said in my first post, absolutely nobody should be prevented from playing rec league sports, but that maybe trans women shouldn't be taking scholarships from biological women  or spots on collegiate and professional teams. 

 

The idea of separation by height and weight instead of sex just doesn't work, and suggesting it shows how little people understand sport. Put Mugsy Bogues in his prime in the WNBA, and he'd dominate it. Mugsy is 5'3. 

 

And then, what about fighting sports? Do we allow them to box against other biological women? Fallon Fox, almost completely untrained, went 5 wins straight against fighters who trained their whole adult lives, before one of the best in the world in that division (Ashley Evans-Smith) finally beat her. 

 

I'm definitely not claiming to have all the answers, but some of the ideas in here are way, way too far out in left field, and are clearly by people who have never competed. 

 

And why should the onus fall on trans kids? There are a million different competitive and successful football/soccer leagues on this planet. Why is it so important to tie minor league sports to education? As I mentioned previously, money distorts highschool and college level sports far more than trans kids ever would. There just aren't enough trans kids on this planet to actually move the needle.

 

26 minutes ago, BloodyHell said:

No, we're suggesting she went from 400th ranked college swimmer as a male, to an NCAA champion as a woman. 

 

And what is that supposed to suggest as far as college swimming or any college sport goes? What point does any of that raise in regards to the importance and sacredness of college swimming in any way that matters?

 

14 minutes ago, BloodyHell said:

I mean, unfortunately, a lot of women's sports are that fragile, so maybe you're right. The WNBA loses 10m a year, making about 70m in revenue, the NBA subsidizes it, because their revenue is closer to 8bn.

 

There is a not insignificant number of people on this get small message board that make more than your average WNBA player. However, again, there still aren't enough trans athletes to make any of this worth the number of words we've wasted away here. Even then, there's a difference between closed professional leagues and high school and college sports. Pro sports leagues can put whatever rules they want to govern themselves. They're private entities. If they wanted to add rules like height caps or legislate what color hair their players can have, then whatever. We're talking about college kids, but mostly talking about minors that just want to play with their highschool classmates as their respective sex. Imagine thinking it's a scandal to let kids have fun and compete with their classmates because we're worried less than 1% of the population will disturb people's ability to make money off children.

[Guest]

Ghost has an absolutely impressive ability to never address what a person is actually saying and just keep making their own pet points. Ben Shapiro-esqe!

[BloodyHell]

16 minutes ago, Ghost_MH said:

 

And why should the onus fall on trans kids? There are a million different competitive and successful football/soccer leagues on this planet. Why is it so important to tie minor league sports to education? As I mentioned previously, money distorts highschool and college level sports far more than trans kids ever would. There just aren't enough trans kids on this planet to actually move the needle.

 

 

And what is that supposed to suggest as far as college swimming or any college sport goes? What point does any of that raise in regards to the importance and sacredness of college swimming in any way that matters?

 

 

There is a not insignificant number of people on this get small message board that make more than your average WNBA player. However, again, there still aren't enough trans athletes to make any of this worth the number of words we've wasted away here. Even then, there's a difference between closed professional leagues and high school and college sports. Pro sports leagues can put whatever rules they want to govern themselves. They're private entities. If they wanted to add rules like height caps or legislate what color hair their players can have, then whatever. We're talking about college kids, but mostly talking about minors that just want to play with their highschool classmates as their respective sex. Imagine thinking it's a scandal to let kids have fun and compete with their classmates because we're worried less than 1% of the population will disturb people's ability to make money off children.

Nobody is talking about kids having fun, that's rec league sports. We very clearly said they should 100% be allowed there. We're talking about competitive sports where scholarships and paychecks are on the line. You keep ignoring the parts where SB, Amazatron, and I are talking about high level competitive sport. The stuff in the op is obviously hateful nonsense, but that doesn't mean its not an issue that Lia Thomas is taking a scholarship from biological women, of which there are very few (scholarships). And a bunch of her teammates resent her and have spoken up about it. 

 

I get that this board leans very far to the left, but this isn't an issue that's going to help trans women gain wider support. Its extremely unpopular.

 

[Ghost_MH]

Just now, BloodyHell said:

Nobody is talking about kids having fun, that's rec league sports. We're talking about competitive sports where scholarships and paychecks are on the line. You keep ignoring the parts where SB, Amazatron, and I are talking about high level competitive sport. The stuff in the op is obviously hateful nonsense, but that doesn't mean its not an issue that Lia Thomas is taking a scholarship from biological women, of which there are very few (scholarships). And a bunch of her teammates resent her and have spoken up about it. 

 

I get that this board leans very far to the left, but this isn't an issue that's going to help trans women gain wider support. Its extremely unpopular.

 

Scholarships and paychecks are on the line because there's money to be made off children. That's the entire argument. Maybe the real argument should be that maybe we shouldn't be trying to make money off children and to leave the trans kids alone.

[BloodyHell]

2 minutes ago, Ghost_MH said:

 

Scholarships and paychecks are on the line because there's money to be made off children. That's the entire argument. Maybe the real argument should be that maybe we shouldn't be trying to make money off children and to leave the trans kids alone.

Spoken like someone who was never an athlete. And if you think the kids get nothing out of that environment, you're completely wrong. Being a visible, high level athlete opens doors, even if you never made pro leagues. 

 

 

[SaysWho?]

I’m honestly impressed how far off the OP we’ve gotten, dismissing it as just obvious bigotry and going right into the “But the sanctity of women’s sports” which led to the OP to begin with.

[TUFKAK]

I don’t understand how we square the circle of trying to minimize competitive advantages to the point where cis women with naturally high test levels are barred from competing but that concern vanishes here.

 

I don’t know the answers here but what we’re doing isn’t it.

 

And as a former high level athlete, trust, we will seek any method that will give us an advantage. Be that more reps or more needles.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, SaysWho? said:

I’m honestly impressed how far off the OP we’ve gotten

What is there to discuss about the OP and why haven’t you brought up whatever that is?

[BloodyHell]

2 minutes ago, TUFKAK said:

I don’t understand how we square the circle of trying to minimize competitive advantages to the point where cis women with naturally high test levels are barred from competing but that concern vanishes here.

 

I don’t know the answers here but what we’re doing isn’t it.

 

And as a former high level athlete, trust, we will seek any method that will give us an advantage. Be that more reps or more needles.

Im completely against the banning of Caster Semaya (might have the name wrong, and apparently this happened to another girl). They are Biologically female, as long as the testosterone isn't synthetic, it shouldn't be a problem. Its not like those of us who who competed and love sport have no problems with many of the IOC and NCAA's rules.

[b_m_b_m_b_m]

16 minutes ago, BloodyHell said:

Nobody is talking about kids having fun, that's rec league sports. We very clearly said they should 100% be allowed there. We're talking about competitive sports where scholarships and paychecks are on the line. You keep ignoring the parts where SB, Amazatron, and I are talking about high level competitive sport. The stuff in the op is obviously hateful nonsense, but that doesn't mean its not an issue that Lia Thomas is taking a scholarship from biological women, of which there are very few (scholarships). And a bunch of her teammates resent her and have spoken up about it. 

 

I get that this board leans very far to the left, but this isn't an issue that's going to help trans women gain wider support. Its extremely unpopular.

 

There’s a very real difference between allowing a literal child to play in the sport as a member of their identified gender and one for adults. I don’t pretend to know the solution for semi pro or professional trans athletes (mark this down as a first) but at the high school level and below the answer is quite clear: who cares let them play

[Keyser_Soze]

ITT Bloodyhell is a pro athelete now.