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SFLUFAN

The Iranian project to turn Iraq into a client state is effectively complete

36 posts in this topic

Better them than us (even after all the money "we've" poured in). If it leads to neighboring nations not going back to being at odds with each other (Iran's push to influence Iraq's youth could lead to that future), I'm cool with that.  

 

Chuckled a bit at 'slapping Made in Iraq stickers on detergents.'

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2 hours ago, kaberle said:

Dvd gonna be raving as fuck now.

 

DVD always raving as fuck doe. 

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For this to be effective, the majority Iraqi population would have to affliliate themselves more strongly with their religious identity as Shias rather than their ethnic identity as Arabs.

 

I wonder if there exists any survey data that illustrates that case?

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Iranians should built monuments in honor of W

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It kind of amazes me that people still try to blame Bush for Obama's disasters. That's impressive.

 

Obama's Iran policy will easily go down as the worst American foreign policy mistake of the past 20 years. The left was gaslighted by an administration that deliberately worked to hand over regional control (and nuclear weapons) to a totalitarian Islamist regime with global ambitions, and the American administration's cheerleaders were happy to lap it up.

 

What's most amazing about this is that the main White House staffer who sold the Iran deal to the American people explicitly admitted that he was manipulating the American people, lying to journalists, and manufacturing an echo chamber - and yet that didn't stop millions of suckers from lapping it up. I guess some people just want to be lied to.

 

Now what remains to be seen is whether the new administration has the competence to undo all the damage done. They've shown a desire to do so, but I don't know if they have the political acumen to undo that much damage.

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Between Iran and Saudi Arabia, I'd much rather Iran be the state gaining influence in the region.

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1 hour ago, SilentWorld said:

Between Iran and Saudi Arabia, I'd much rather Iran be the state gaining influence in the region.

 

9 hours ago, kaberle said:

Dvd gonna be raving as fuck now.

 

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6 hours ago, SFLUFAN said:

For this to be effective, the majority Iraqi population would have to affliliate themselves more strongly with their religious identity as Shias rather than their ethnic identity as Arabs.

 

I wonder if there exists any survey data that illustrates that case?

 

Saddam effectively killed any pan arabism that was possible in Iraq by favouring sunnis and persecuting shia.

 

And then the Shia did the same when they took power.

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16 years later and Afghanistan remains a complete fucking shithole and Iraq is falling into Iranian-manipulated chaos because we took out Saddam and bumblefucked our way through the power vacuum. At least with an all-volunteer force, nobody has to care when legionnaires die and the barbarians push back the borders of Rome.

 

You know what? I'm actually glad I didn't get deployed to Iraq or Afghanistan. At least I wasn't personally tied to the places that we're letting the bastards retake. I can't imagine how combat vets like @kaberle and @Snaynay1 are feeling. I just feel shitty thinking about about the people I knew from school who died overseas for what is turning out to be nothing. Sure, we're not getting spit on like Vietnam vets, but somehow "thank you for your service" and yellow ribbon bumper stickers don't make up for knowing a decade and a half of destruction, death, and crippling injuries are all going to mean nothing.

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1 hour ago, Occam's Chainsaw said:

At least I wasn't personally tied to the places that we're letting the bastards retake.

 

As was said to me by a Pakistani journalist who had spent many years in both pre and post Taliban Afghanistan, "What makes you think you took both Afghanistan and Iraq to begin with?  You never had those places because everyone knew that you weren't going to stay."

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14 hours ago, heyyoudvd said:

It kind of amazes me that people still try to blame Bush for Obama's disasters. That's impressive.

 

Obama's Iran policy will easily go down as the worst American foreign policy mistake of the past 20 years. The left was gaslighted by an administration that deliberately worked to hand over regional control (and nuclear weapons) to a totalitarian Islamist regime with global ambitions, and the American administration's cheerleaders were happy to lap it up.

 

What's most amazing about this is that the main White House staffer who sold the Iran deal to the American people explicitly admitted that he was manipulating the American people, lying to journalists, and manufacturing an echo chamber - and yet that didn't stop millions of suckers from lapping it up. I guess some people just want to be lied to.

 

Now what remains to be seen is whether the new administration has the competence to undo all the damage done. They've shown a desire to do so, but I don't know if they have the political acumen to undo that much damage.

 

As expected, making it more difficult to bomb a country makes neoconservatives furious--it is very much like taking a spoiled toddler's toys away.  

 

Anyway, I agree the emphasis should not be on Bush alone--it should be on the neoconservative establishment as a whole, including senior members of Dubya's administration and neocon 'intellectuals' like Bill Kristol, and focus on not forgetting the disastrous results of implementing their policies.  Bush was just the addled head of the neocon beast, after all.

 

But let's acknowledge our common faults--we both know Republicans will still be banging on about Hillary Clinton for as long as Trump forces them to find ways to distract from his bumbling.  And that looks to be right up till the 2020 election.

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3 hours ago, Signifyin(g)Monkey said:

As expected, making it more difficult to bomb a country makes neoconservatives furious--it is very much like taking a spoiled toddler's toys away.  

 

 

Ah, the classic "If you call out our idiotic policy for being completely ineffectual and counterproductive, that makes you a warmonger".

 

It's right up there with the beloved "If you point out that wealth redistribution is an economically illiterate policy that leads to economic collapse, that means you just hate poor people."

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18 hours ago, heyyoudvd said:

It kind of amazes me that people still try to blame Bush for Obama's disasters. That's impressive.

 

Obama's Iran policy will easily go down as the worst American foreign policy mistake of the past 20 years. The left was gaslighted by an administration that deliberately worked to hand over regional control (and nuclear weapons) to a totalitarian Islamist regime with global ambitions, and the American administration's cheerleaders were happy to lap it up.

 

What's most amazing about this is that the main White House staffer who sold the Iran deal to the American people explicitly admitted that he was manipulating the American people, lying to journalists, and manufacturing an echo chamber - and yet that didn't stop millions of suckers from lapping it up. I guess some people just want to be lied to.

 

Now what remains to be seen is whether the new administration has the competence to undo all the damage done. They've shown a desire to do so, but I don't know if they have the political acumen to undo that much damage.

 

 

Dude..they can't even get a healthcare bill passed that they've been working on for 7..almost 8 years....a coherent actionable Middle East policy....yeah...that's way way at the back of the line....right below bringing coal jobs back.     

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19 hours ago, heyyoudvd said:

It kind of amazes me that people still try to blame Bush for Obama's disasters. That's impressive.

 

Obama's Iran policy will easily go down as the worst American foreign policy mistake of the past 20 years. The left was gaslighted by an administration that deliberately worked to hand over regional control (and nuclear weapons) to a totalitarian Islamist regime with global ambitions, and the American administration's cheerleaders were happy to lap it up.

 

What's most amazing about this is that the main White House staffer who sold the Iran deal to the American people explicitly admitted that he was manipulating the American people, lying to journalists, and manufacturing an echo chamber - and yet that didn't stop millions of suckers from lapping it up. I guess some people just want to be lied to.

 

Now what remains to be seen is whether the new administration has the competence to undo all the damage done. They've shown a desire to do so, but I don't know if they have the political acumen to undo that much damage.

Iran's influence doesn't happen without W. So even if you believe Obama's Iran policy was a disaster (personally I do not), you wouldn't have the situation at hand without the increased meddling under W's watch.

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1 hour ago, Alpha1Cowboy said:

 

 

Dude..they can't even get a healthcare bill passed that they've been working on for 7..almost 8 years....a coherent actionable Middle East policy....yeah...that's way way at the back of the line....right below bringing coal jobs back.     

lol, they haven't been working on health care policy for 7-8 years. They've been working the public.

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25 minutes ago, Fuhrer D said:

Iran's influence doesn't happen without W. So even if you believe Obama's Iran policy was a disaster (personally I do not), you wouldn't have the situation at hand without the increased meddling under W's watch.

 

That's more of a butterfly effect argument. If I drive you to the store and while you're at the store, someone murders you, am I to blame for your death? After all, it wouldn't have happened without me driving you there.

 

If Bush hadn't entered Iraq, Saddam would probably still be around to check Iran's power, but that doesn't make Bush culpable for what Iran has become. After all, if Obama had listened to the generals and maintained a residual force in Iraq, as they implored, Iran would have been kept in check and it never would have been able to turn Iraq into a puppet state.

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1 hour ago, heyyoudvd said:

 

 

Ah, the classic "If you call out our idiotic policy for being completely ineffectual and counterproductive, that makes you a warmonger".

 

It's right up there with the beloved "If you point out that wealth redistribution is an economically illiterate policy that leads to economic collapse, that means you just hate poor people."

 

Wealth redistribution has actually been very successful and has not lead to economic collapse, so I'm not sure what you are trying to say here.

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38 minutes ago, heyyoudvd said:

 

That's more of a butterfly effect argument. If I drive you to the store and while you're at the store, someone murders you, am I to blame for your death? After all, it wouldn't have happened without me driving you there.

 

If Bush hadn't entered Iraq, Saddam would probably still be around to check Iran's power, but that doesn't make Bush culpable for what Iran has become. After all, if Obama had listened to the generals and maintained a residual force in Iraq, as they implored, Iran would have been kept in check and it never would have been able to turn Iraq into a puppet state.

If you took me to the store against my will, yes, you would be responsible.

 

Maybe I'm mistaken, but didn't Obama follow closely the path for Iraq laid out by his predecessor? Its been some years, so I could be remembering that incorrectly, or missing a few key details.

 

I'm not stating that Bush is completely culpable for the "rise" of Iran, Obama (through policy and diplomacy) definitely emboldened Iran and their influence in the region (something of which I personally have no issue), but the two go hand in hand. I merely stating that it is a bit disingenuous to lay it solely at one President's feet.

 

To your original point about the current administration, hopefully they just keep at least the Obama level balance (maybe even a better relationship with Russia) that exist with the rest of the world (glad to not find out, but I don't think this would have happened under Clinton); while focusing on tax reform (something they can actually accomplish).

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1 hour ago, -Chris said:

 

Let me get this straight, you assert that redistribution is a good thing, and to support this assertion, you cite successes from tax credits? Do you understand what a tax credit is?

 

 

51 minutes ago, Fuhrer D said:

Maybe I'm mistaken, but didn't Obama follow closely the path for Iraq laid out by his predecessor? Its been some years, so I could be remembering that incorrectly, or missing a few key details.

 

He did not. Bush wanted to follow the generals' recommendation and keep a residual force in Iraq . General Austin (the Commanding General) stated that it would take a residual force of 14-18k troops to get the job done. Obama rejected his recommendation and offered 3-4k. The Iraqi government felt that because that figure was too low to even keep Iraq safe, let alone to counterbalance Iran, it wasn't worth the political cost of keeping American forces in Iraq, so they told the US to leave.

 

The thing is that the situation in Iraq had been going extremely well at the time. After the surge, things had been going so well, that both Obama and Biden had publicly praised it and even tried to take credit for it. Troop levels had just fallen from 90k to 45k, yet violence stayed down and things were going great. But then instead of continuing the gradual withdrawal and going with 18k next, as per the advice of the generals, Obama ignored them, offered a number too low to work with (3-4k), pulled out, and then everything went to hell.

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32 minutes ago, heyyoudvd said:

 

Let me get this straight, you assert that redistribution is a good thing, and to support this assertion, you cite successes from tax credits? Do you understand what a tax credit is?

 

 

I do; apparently you don't though, because the EIC and CTC are refundable credits; in other words, pure, unadulterated wealth distribution. 

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19 hours ago, SFLUFAN said:

 

As was said to me by a Pakistani journalist who had spent many years in both pre and post Taliban Afghanistan, "What makes you think you took both Afghanistan and Iraq to begin with?  You never had those places because everyone knew that you weren't going to stay."

 

That's the really tragic part, American foreign policy has been so soft since 1945 that people know they only have to last a few years to outlast American will. Especially now that we have an all volunteer force, nobody cares how many Americans have died fighting in a country. The long-term effects of war and invasions don't fucking matter and our policy makers don't care enough to plan that far ahead. Afghanistan remains the graveyard of empires and Iraq is a complete shitshow because we didn't care enough to plan part the "declare victory and have a parade" stage. It's incredibly frustrating and one of the reasons I'm seriously considering leaving the Army.

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17 hours ago, heyyoudvd said:

 

Let me get this straight, you assert that redistribution is a good thing, and to support this assertion, you cite successes from tax credits? Do you understand what a tax credit is?

 

 

 

He did not. Bush wanted to follow the generals' recommendation and keep a residual force in Iraq . General Austin (the Commanding General) stated that it would take a residual force of 14-18k troops to get the job done. Obama rejected his recommendation and offered 3-4k. The Iraqi government felt that because that figure was too low to even keep Iraq safe, let alone to counterbalance Iran, it wasn't worth the political cost of keeping American forces in Iraq, so they told the US to leave.

 

The thing is that the situation in Iraq had been going extremely well at the time. After the surge, things had been going so well, that both Obama and Biden had publicly praised it and even tried to take credit for it. Troop levels had just fallen from 90k to 45k, yet violence stayed down and things were going great. But then instead of continuing the gradual withdrawal and going with 18k next, as per the advice of the generals, Obama ignored them, offered a number too low to work with (3-4k), pulled out, and then everything went to hell.

Cool, thanks for the update. If what you say is true (I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and take it as is), then I'm willing to lay a larger portion at Obama's feet than I originally considered.

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29 minutes ago, Fuhrer D said:

If what you say is true (I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and take it as is), then I'm willing to lay a larger portion at Obama's feet than I originally considered.

 

Oh sweet summer child.

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4 minutes ago, Jason said:

 

Oh sweet summer child.

:D I'm a late spring baby though, Flag Day, Trump, and I share the same day.

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1 hour ago, Fuhrer D said:

Cool, thanks for the update. If what you say is true (I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and take it as is), then I'm willing to lay a larger portion at Obama's feet than I originally considered.

 

You don't have to give me the benefit of the doubt. If you're not sure about something, ask for a source. Here's my source:

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/marc-thiessen-obamas-iraq-disaster/2014/06/16/7151391e-f55b-11e3-a3a5-42be35962a52_story.html

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