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kaberle

I will make this board active (great) again.

27 posts in this topic

Old read yes but the previous thread I started had me considering the topic again. Also because my personal/daily life has been focused on this for quite sometime and my most recent injury had me re evaluating my goals.


http://www.breitbart.com/london/2014/12/04/the-sexodus-part-1-the-men-giving-up-on-women-and-checking-out-of-society/

I recall, before I fell into this hyper-masculine-walking-fucking-cliche I somehow became over the last decade plus of my life, sharing similar sentiments expressed here. There is a clear disconnect in the roles and expectations for modern man in the realm of heterosexual interpersonal relationships. What we are told to be and what actually fucking works. Now, much of that post is outright whining but the overall point is valid. I do also disagree that female sexual liberation was a bad thing and that every perceived slight ends up screwing your life over. Now, I will sort've fall into a rant/train of thought here.

The changing social reality has impacted all of us. In my case my primary motivation in life has become to develop a physique I am proud of and that is widely lusted for, because 1.) bodybuilder (duh) and 2.) I have experienced the euphoria associated with being massively desired. Now, much of number two is impacted by own goals and aspirations for my physique, aka Dennis Wolf, but since I know developing that level of development isn't possible, I still do desire the other aspect, all be it with far more muscularity than the cultural body in my case. This was not a widespread masculine desire decades ago but it is a major driving force now that you can see in every wight room in America. My primary gym buddy is a Chef, my secondary gym friend here is a Respiratory Therapist. I have trained CEOs in the gym Lawyers, Doctors etc, and provided anabolics to those same people. Why would this be? Because people respond positively to ostentatious displays of masculinity, despite what is told to you, and being the biggest guy in the room is, often, it's own source of power. It's not just bodybuilders on juice, in fact I know three competitors (either actively competing or seriously aspirations of it) on, and dozens who are not competitors juicing. The same woman who tells her husband that "muscles are gross" is on her back with her personal trainer. I have a had several long discussions with a regular of this board, and one who has since left us, and another friend off site in regards to the fact the they know that their SOs are fantasizing after other guys. In my one friends case off this board his GF broached the topic of fucking me and the issues that caused him, said guy is now massively into the gym as well. To be fair he brought the topic up and told her several of her friends he'd have been interested in so it was his fault. 

Now, perhaps my lived experience colors my perspective too negatively here as I have been the "check mark" for dozens of women. But using the articles GoT reference, we all saw the shit storm about Ramsay's rape and the near panty soaking response to Drogo's rape. I will not put the spoilers here but what is the most obvious difference? Drogo is actually sexually attractive. I can not be the only person who has either experienced this or witnessed it.

 

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1 hour ago, Amazatron said:

Dude, we get it, you're a manly man.

Actually my own musing is this, it got me nothing but a feeling of failure, depression and suicidal ideation, and the the tone of derision I selected to mock what I have become should have also have been evident, it was basically how I began it. I do not like what I have become and I am in self-imposed celibacy for the last seven months due to these feelings. It was massively implied I hate myself for the way I look, and if I need say it outright I shall. I despise my body and myself for my appearance and fixation on it. So if you're trying to make this about me humble bragging it is most assuredly not that.

So combined with my feelings of crippling inadequacy due to my appearance, my fixation on it, and my choice of profession I am not sure how I would fit the mold of manly-man. I said I am basically a caricature, not an actual one.

Now, to the topic/article, a response? I am perfectly fine espousing more of my self-hate if need be.

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10 hours ago, kaberle said:

The same woman who tells her husband that "muscles are gross" is on her back with her personal trainer.

 

I don't doubt this is the case at leas some of the time, but are there any solid measure of the frequency? That you and others have experienced it isn't a good metric of how common it is because there is a serious bias in the selection and major risk for confirmation bias (not tracking the denominator).

 

Quote

Now, perhaps my lived experience colors my perspective too negatively here as I have been the "check mark" for dozens of women. But using the articles GoT reference, we all saw the shit storm about Ramsay's rape and the near panty soaking response to Drogo's rape. I will not put the spoilers here but what is the most obvious difference? Drogo is actually sexually attractive. I can not be the only person who has either experienced this or witnessed it.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if that is a large factor. But there are confounding variables that make this not especially useful. Ramsay is a horrible hated character in general for a great many reasons, and had established that up to the rape scene. Drogo, at the time of the rape, was somewhat unknown, with signs of decency and ultimately turned out to be a pretty cool guy aside from the fact that he was willing to force himself on his wife.

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23 hours ago, Lucian04 said:

It's all good bruh. Get Paid. Get Ripped. Get Laid. Absolutely nothing wrong with that.

This wasn't supposed to be about me, just using my own lived experience as an example to back up some points of the article. I just doubled down on myself to shoot down the humble brag accusations. 

19 hours ago, legend said:

 

I don't doubt this is the case at leas some of the time, but are there any solid measure of the frequency? That you and others have experienced it isn't a good metric of how common it is because there is a serious bias in the selection and major risk for confirmation bias (not tracking the denominator).

 

 

I wouldn't be surprised if that is a large factor. But there are confounding variables that make this not especially useful. Ramsay is a horrible hated character in general for a great many reasons, and had established that up to the rape scene. Drogo, at the time of the rape, was somewhat unknown, with signs of decency and ultimately turned out to be a pretty cool guy aside from the fact that he was willing to force himself on his wife.

See above, I was using my lived experience as a back drop to the article. I can only accountant for my lived experience and as the majority of the article was about that it seemed to fit, although the stats they used were rather enlightening as well.

Uh, Drogo was also a slave trader and bought his wife. :P

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2 hours ago, kaberle said:

This wasn't supposed to be about me, just using my own lived experience as an example to back up some points of the article. I just doubled down on myself to shoot down the humble brag accusations. 

See above, I was using my lived experience as a back drop to the article. I can only accountant for my lived experience and as the majority of the article was about that it seemed to fit, although the stats they used were rather enlightening as well.

 

I'll read it in more detail and get back to you then!

 

Quote

Uh, Drogo was also a slave trader and bought his wife. :P

 

Yeah, and he also forced himself on his wife! Nevertheless, the perception people have is that he was actually kind of a cool guy, perhaps largely due to relaxing the standards given the culture in which he was brought up where relatively speaking he was pretty great.

 

The fact of the matter is Ramsey is a reviled character, and Drogo is not and this feeling has nothing to do with appearance and everything to do with who they are (the feeling is the same from the book). Such is a serious confounding variable.

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8 minutes ago, legend said:

Nevertheless, the perception people have is that he was actually kind of a cool guy, perhaps largely due to relaxing the standards given the culture in which he was brought up where relatively speaking he was pretty great.

 

Yep this is exactly how literary sympathy works; specific and intentional construction of a character that stands in relief to those around them.

 

It also helps that the story specifically dramatized his acquiescence to a strong female when she tried to control him; a further difference from the initial characterization. They almost literally say that rape is the only way he knows how to have sex and then he learns a better way. 

 

Like I said, sympathy blowing out his ass.

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On 12/14/2016 at 10:20 AM, legend said:

 

I'll read it in more detail and get back to you then!

 

 

Yeah, and he also forced himself on his wife! Nevertheless, the perception people have is that he was actually kind of a cool guy, perhaps largely due to relaxing the standards given the culture in which he was brought up where relatively speaking he was pretty great.

 

The fact of the matter is Ramsey is a reviled character, and Drogo is not and this feeling has nothing to do with appearance and everything to do with who they are (the feeling is the same from the book). Such is a serious confounding variable.

Fair. This is an interesting time for the concept of masculinity. 

There's that and Drogo is a hyper-masculine character and Jason Momoa is fine looking man; and he has a fucking dragon named after him. I would argue that if you have a less attractive person playing Drogo he would not illicit the same general positive response, despite his "positive" cultural enlightenment when compared to the standards of his time. 

And to what ana said, at the risk of making this a GoT discussion, it is clear that Drogo wanted an equal partner, not a hole to use; it is basically outright said. 

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You hate yourself for not looking big enough? Also, I'm curious about the self-imposed celibacy. What are you hoping to accomplish with it?

 

For what it's worth, I see shades of myself in some of that article. I don't play videogames, I'm not celibate or "afraid" of women or whatever, and mercifully I've avoided the uber-PC types who would label me creepy for leaning in for a kiss prematurely or whatever. However, I don't want children, and I increasingly don't view marriage as being a worthwhile endeavor. The cost, the rising infidelity, the risk of divorce - it all makes me want to continue flying solo. I'd rather save my money, retire sooner, work less, travel more, experience more, etc. I suppose this is the checking-out of society that the article alludes to.

 

Our society seems paralyzed by endless choice. We live in a swipe-right world now, with an endless buffet of options in front of us, both in terms of consumer products as well as potential life partners. I think it makes people less likely to commit, and infects us with an incurable case of grass-is-greener syndrome.

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1 hour ago, kaberle said:

Fair. This is an interesting time for the concept of masculinity. 

There's that and Drogo is a hyper-masculine character and Jason Momoa is fine looking man; and he has a fucking dragon named after him. I would argue that if you have a less attractive person playing Drogo he would not illicit the same general positive response, despite his "positive" cultural enlightenment when compared to the standards of his time. 

And to what ana said, at the risk of making this a GoT discussion, it is clear that Drogo wanted an equal partner, not a hole to use; it is basically outright said. 

 

 

I imagine that Drogo's appearance is a factor for women gushing over him! These seem like a combination of necessary ingredients.

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9 minutes ago, legend said:

 

 

I imagine that Drogo's appearance is a factor for women gushing over him! These seem like a combination of necessary ingredients.

 

They like that he looks like he could destroy them but also let them braid his hair.

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4 minutes ago, Anathema- said:

 

They like that he looks like he could destroy them but also let them braid his hair.

 

 

As long as they don't forget the bells. God help them if they forget a bell.

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On 12/15/2016 at 2:02 PM, Scott said:

You hate yourself for not looking big enough? Also, I'm curious about the self-imposed celibacy. What are you hoping to accomplish with it?

 

For what it's worth, I see shades of myself in some of that article. I don't play videogames, I'm not celibate or "afraid" of women or whatever, and mercifully I've avoided the uber-PC types who would label me creepy for leaning in for a kiss prematurely or whatever. However, I don't want children, and I increasingly don't view marriage as being a worthwhile endeavor. The cost, the rising infidelity, the risk of divorce - it all makes me want to continue flying solo. I'd rather save my money, retire sooner, work less, travel more, experience more, etc. I suppose this is the checking-out of society that the article alludes to.

 

Our society seems paralyzed by endless choice. We live in a swipe-right world now, with an endless buffet of options in front of us, both in terms of consumer products as well as potential life partners. I think it makes people less likely to commit, and infects us with an incurable case of grass-is-greener syndrome.

1.) Yes, this is bodybuilding. Imagine your greatest failure in life. Now imagine you must walk around announcing that to everyone everytime you're seen. That's what it is like to look as I do. I went celibate because all the sex in the world, of which I had more than my fair share, never gave me what I wanted, and I started to think it might be an active hinderance to my goals, so I cut it out. The end goal being to get a body I want. If the admiration of women was providing me a form of bodily content it is likely I may not have been pushing as hard. And it should be noted that after I made the choice to go celibate I have made rapid gains in size and strength. Still 6'1 250 ish but strength is the highest it has ever been, size is improving weekly etc.
2.) I agree that raising children is the one legitimate benefit of marriage, but since I 1.) do not want that and 2.) am physically incapable of it, there is no reason for me to marry, and even the monetary perks of marriage are more than outweighed by the risks. I make a damn good living, the thought of losing my financial stability after I finally achieved it is a non-sequitur. 

On 12/15/2016 at 2:21 PM, legend said:

 

 

I imagine that Drogo's appearance is a factor for women gushing over him! These seem like a combination of necessary ingredients.

Of course, which goes back to the first. Appear hyper masculine and behave in such a way you are going to be rewarded with more sexual options than reserved guys.

Had a chance to read yet?

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2 hours ago, kaberle said:

1.) Yes, this is bodybuilding. Imagine your greatest failure in life. Now imagine you must walk around announcing that to everyone everytime you're seen. That's what it is like to look as I do. I went celibate because all the sex in the world, of which I had more than my fair share, never gave me what I wanted, and I started to think it might be an active hinderance to my goals, so I cut it out. The end goal being to get a body I want. If the admiration of women was providing me a form of bodily content it is likely I may not have been pushing as hard. And it should be noted that after I made the choice to go celibate I have made rapid gains in size and strength. Still 6'1 250 ish but strength is the highest it has ever been, size is improving weekly etc.
2.) I agree that raising children is the one legitimate benefit of marriage, but since I 1.) do not want that and 2.) am physically incapable of it, there is no reason for me to marry, and even the monetary perks of marriage are more than outweighed by the risks. I make a damn good living, the thought of losing my financial stability after I finally achieved it is a non-sequitur. 

Of course, which goes back to the first. Appear hyper masculine and behave in such a way you are going to be rewarded with more sexual options than reserved guys.

 

Just because I'm curious, whose physique are you trying to emulate? That's great that your celibacy has led to positive outcomes. What do you make of the fact that you're willing to cut out sexual relations with women, but you've listed one of your primary drivers as being lusted after? Do you just appreciate the feeling of being desired more so than the actual physical acts that follow from that desire? Not trying to put you on a couch here, just somewhat intrigued by your philosophy, as I think I probably share a portion of it.

 

In a lofty, philosophical sense, it's difficult to imagine skipping out on two of life's most fundamental activities (marriage, parenthood); but in a more real, "oh fuck I just lost half my shit" sense, it seems very practical. :P

 

For anyone who's interested in the kids/no kids discussion, I highly recommend you google "Mike Rowe no kids." He wrote an awesome essay on it.

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3 hours ago, kaberle said:

1.) Yes, this is bodybuilding. Imagine your greatest failure in life. Now imagine you must walk around announcing that to everyone everytime you're seen. That's what it is like to look as I do. I went celibate because all the sex in the world, of which I had more than my fair share, never gave me what I wanted, and I started to think it might be an active hinderance to my goals, so I cut it out. The end goal being to get a body I want. If the admiration of women was providing me a form of bodily content it is likely I may not have been pushing as hard. And it should be noted that after I made the choice to go celibate I have made rapid gains in size and strength. Still 6'1 250 ish but strength is the highest it has ever been, size is improving weekly etc.
2.) I agree that raising children is the one legitimate benefit of marriage, but since I 1.) do not want that and 2.) am physically incapable of it, there is no reason for me to marry, and even the monetary perks of marriage are more than outweighed by the risks. I make a damn good living, the thought of losing my financial stability after I finally achieved it is a non-sequitur. 

Of course, which goes back to the first. Appear hyper masculine and behave in such a way you are going to be rewarded with more sexual options than reserved guys.

Had a chance to read yet?

 

You say your "end goal being to get a body I want" but it doesn't sound like you have that want defined at all.  The bigger you get, your desire to get even bigger seems to grow or you see someone bigger than you and you become jealous of what they are.  It's the same thing with money, career status, power, etc.  In the end you keep chasing, never catching up to everyone, and ultimately being miserable and feeling like a failure.  Yes, we can project our successes to mask the insecurity (just using your example of "women lust after me"), but until you actually define your goals and celebrate achieving it, you'll feel empty.

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3 hours ago, kaberle said:

Of course, which goes back to the first. Appear hyper masculine and behave in such a way you are going to be rewarded with more sexual options than reserved guys.

Had a chance to read yet?

 

Just read both parts. I guess I'm not sure what stats in particular you're pointing to. The article(s) seemed rather heavy on opinion and light on factual support.  Can you highlight what parts you think relevant?

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16 hours ago, Scott said:

Just because I'm curious, whose physique are you trying to emulate? That's great that your celibacy has led to positive outcomes. What do you make of the fact that you're willing to cut out sexual relations with women, but you've listed one of your primary drivers as being lusted after? Do you just appreciate the feeling of being desired more so than the actual physical acts that follow from that desire? Not trying to put you on a couch here, just somewhat intrigued by your philosophy, as I think I probably share a portion of it.

 

In a lofty, philosophical sense, it's difficult to imagine skipping out on two of life's most fundamental activities (marriage, parenthood); but in a more real, "oh fuck I just lost half my shit" sense, it seems very practical. :P

 

For anyone who's interested in the kids/no kids discussion, I highly recommend you google "Mike Rowe no kids." He wrote an awesome essay on it.

Being lusted after isn't a primary motivator, it's just the fall back acceptable level if I do not achieve my primary goal of an acceptable physique, apologies for not being clear.

I wouldn't say I am looking to have anyone's body, there are physiques I laud as the example of perfection, Phil Heath etc, but I also know I do not have the genes for that level of perfection. For me it's more of an appreciable visual goal based on math, aka proportions and symmetry. Bodybuilding isn't just about being big, it's about being proportioned, symmetrical, conditioned etc.

To the question of do I appreciate being desired more than sex itself? yes. I have done every sexual thing I have ever wanted, I am long past the point of truly wanting sex for it's own sake. Well, not having an escort, I've not done that yet. But, during the height of my promiscuity; where multiple women a week was the norm, it was more of a positive reinforcement of "looking good" and that is also why I cut it out. The logic being that by going celibate I deny myself those feelings of validation and force myself to train harder, and it has absolutely worked, I have made rapid progress over the last 8 months. I am not sure I would have gotten to this point if I had not lived the previous "manwhore" life I lived though either. I was just forced to examine what did all of those women and sexual encounters give me, the answer was nothing.

Yeah, the risk reward stakes are now far too high for the choice of marriage and children to be made logically for many men, you stand to lose far too much if it all goes to hell. But thankfully I never had a desire to breed and discovered my sterility when I went to get a vasectomy. 

15 hours ago, Amazatron said:

 

You say your "end goal being to get a body I want" but it doesn't sound like you have that want defined at all.  The bigger you get, your desire to get even bigger seems to grow or you see someone bigger than you and you become jealous of what they are.  It's the same thing with money, career status, power, etc.  In the end you keep chasing, never catching up to everyone, and ultimately being miserable and feeling like a failure.  Yes, we can project our successes to mask the insecurity (just using your example of "women lust after me"), but until you actually define your goals and celebrate achieving it, you'll feel empty.

See above, it is defined mathematically, it is also revised the bigger I get as the visual does not match the math, but it is more of a visual response. I do not become jealous of bigger guys, they motivate me, and I am now at the point where I only really encounter bigger guys than me at bodybuilding shows. I am routinely either the biggest and strongest guy in my gyms/rooms or the second biggest and strongest. I compare myself to like 50 guys on the planet. I used the example of women lusting after me previously to highlight an aspect of the article. I am the exact opposite of what most guys were taught to be with women, and I have thusly lived a sexual life many men say they want, I am telling you it isn't that grand.

I will celebrate when I have achieved it. 

15 hours ago, legend said:

 

Just read both parts. I guess I'm not sure what stats in particular you're pointing to. The article(s) seemed rather heavy on opinion and light on factual support.  Can you highlight what parts you think relevant?

The stats of guys who say they have similiar feelings, the lower birth rates, lower marriage rates, increased time to marriage, etc.

Also when you're dealing with humanistic aspects it is always going to be primarily a qualitative study, that's just the nature of the field. :P

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12 hours ago, kaberle said:

The stats of guys who say they have similiar feelings, the lower birth rates, lower marriage rates, increased time to marriage, etc.

Also when you're dealing with humanistic aspects it is always going to be primarily a qualitative study, that's just the nature of the field. :P

 

Which stats are those? His "sources" don't seem at all relevant or helpful to his argument. For example, the very first "sourced" claim that "marriage is dead" is a link that takes you to an article which is saying that the statement that about 67% of marriages end in divorce is not actually backed up by any facts the authors could find; it's a link to an article about how the divorce rate isn't actually as bad as some are claiming. That's an incredibly bizarre source to back up the claim that "marriage is dead."

 

Okay, that's just the first kind of source he uses for his claims. How about his second "sourced" claim that if men try to have children "chances are the kids won’t be ours"? That blue link takes us to another article of the exact same shape as the first! It's an article about how claims of false paternity are completely overblown and that the actual rates of false paternity are quite low! This is the source he chose!

 

At this point, I almost have to wonder if his article is satire or a social experiment, because his links argue the opposite direction of the claim he's using them to support!

 

So if you think there is something more relevant, can you provide them the actual meaningful citation either he's using and actually supports what he says, or what legitimately backs it up external to his article, because while there might be useful nuggets in there, I trust nothing he says in that article and the existence of blue links apparently means little.

 

 

 

 

 

 

That all said, I'll give some informal responses to some of the things you highlighted in the mean time.

 

Guys who state to have these feelings means very little to me. Humankind loves a scape goat. If he could't find men who are whining that women are too much work and demanding, I'd be shocked, and that has nothing to do with the reality of dating and the relationship situation.

 

Birthrates probably shouldn't be high. We don't want to really be growing much more than replacement rate due to over population issues. IIRC replacement rate is about 2.1 and the US is right around there. If memory serves, lower birth rate also tends to correlate with greater wealth and education; a reason why the US has much lower birth rates than say, somewhere in Africa. I don't know if any drops in rate are due to such a factor improving, but it's clear that there are various factors that can affect that stat that have nothing to do with any challenges in relationships between the sexes.

 

Increased time to marriage can similarly be affected by a number of other factors. For example, education time I believe has substantially increased and this can absolutely affect when someone chooses to get married. Improved medical care also make later child bearing more possible. In general, I also don't think it's a bad thing that fewer people are getting married as teenagers.

 

Divorce is fairly frequent (even if not "dead" as he claims and fails to support). Part of this may be because people still choose to get married too soon into a relationship, but even that aside, I'm not especially concerned by divorce being high. So what if people don't literally stay with the same person to death? Religion saying it's a good human policy doesn't make it so and the possibility of divorce doesn't preclude one from bringing up a family, as is evident.

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7 minutes ago, SFLUFAN said:

THIS was supposed to make this board "great" again?!? Jesus Christ.

More posts=great. Don't make me get my twitter followers on you, I thought it might at least engender passionate debate as it's a unique perspective.

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10 hours ago, kaberle said:

 

 

I will await your return. I read the article, but am not sure what you want to focus on from it.

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