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CayceG

Oh my fuck - Trump picks Exxon CEO Tillerson for SECSTATE - Tillerson DOES know Putin

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user19842x15    1,114
Just now, mikee002 said:

 

 

I do not mean to be rude but is this going to be some conspiracy type stuff, Are you going to blame them for the rise of the Taliban and in turn Isis, Are you going to blame them for turning (wait lets try and get this right), Iran, Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya and now Syria into sectarian hell holes while kowtowing to the Saudis who will not even let woman drive they are so backwards, No wait that was you.   So tell me what have the Russians done apart from being the only country with a pair big enough to end a war in the Middle East

 

where-is-crimea-ukraine-and-turkey.jpg 

 

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b_m_b_m_b_m    1,040

Russians ending a war in the middle East? That's what they've been doing? OLOLOL.

 

The worry is they will get off the hook for what they've done/are doing to Ukraine and then do the same in other neighboring states, especially those who are now in NATO, "to protect native Russians/Russian speakers"

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mikee002    31

We fought a war in the Crimea  (Battle of the Light Brigade and all that) and it was to bloody far for us than. What on earth do you think you know about Ukrainian politics and what has it got to do with you lot. I am surprised you could find it on a map. As for the middle East the only hope Syria has is to get around the table with Assad and that means getting around the table with Putin. 

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CayceG    2,493
34 minutes ago, mikee002 said:

 

 

I do not mean to be rude but is this going to be some conspiracy type stuff, Are you going to blame them for the rise of the Taliban and in turn Isis, Are you going to blame them for turning (wait lets try and get this right), Iran, Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya and now Syria into sectarian hell holes while kowtowing to the Saudis who will not even let woman drive they are so backwards, No wait that was you.   So tell me what have the Russians done apart from being the only country with a pair big enough to end a war in the Middle East

 

Russia has, since Putin officially took power again in 2012, asserted itself on the world stage. It destroyed Georgia's military 4 years before that in a counter-invasion that saw them decimate a country friendly to NATO. 

 

In 2006 Russia was implicated in rigging an election in Ukraine. 

 

In 2014, Russia pressured Ukraine into killing an economic and political association agreement with the EU that would have been a precursor to them becoming a member. The wake of that saw a revolution, an ousting of a pro-Russian politician, and the Russian military operation to annex Crimea from Ukraine. They then caused a low intensity conflict in the east that has continued since. Russian involvement in that insurgency caused the death of 300 civilians on an airliner shot down by Russian troops, with a Russian missile. 

 

This year, Russia very nearly launched a coup in Montenegro on the eve of their most recent election, which would have derailed their entry into NATO. 

 

Russian disinformation campaigns have swept across Europe and legitimized the ultra right wing and nationalist parties across the EU. That disinformation has now gone even more global with its involvement in the US election. They traffic in conspiracy theories and actively fabricate evidence to support their stories. One example of this is a fabricated satellite photo that showed a fighter jet firing on the above mentioned airliner in Ukraine. It was found to be a fabrication. 

 

Russia uses Wikileaks as a conduit to release information that is helpful to their international aims of coloring the West as an imperialist behemoth. 

 

And now Russia helped Trump win using two of the things I listed above. The president-elect's ties to Russia through not only his business, but his advisors, and now his cabinet picks are known and pose a very real threat to the previous direction of the country. 

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mikee002    31
1 minute ago, CayceG said:

 

Well just ignore him and reply to me. I gave you the same courtesy even if he didn't.

 

No absolutely! you have made a well researched post and there is a lot to cover in it. I might break it down a bit so I can address a few points from my perspective.

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CayceG    2,493
Just now, mikee002 said:

 

No absolutely! you have made a well researched post and there is a lot to cover in it. I might break it down a bit so I can address a few points from my perspective.

 

Roger that. 

 

I assume you're from the UK, but maybe give me some background, if you could, on what your perspective is. 

 

For me, I've been interested in post-Cold War politics for a long time. I've studied it extensively since around 2006 (Ukraine's Orange Revolution) and have a focus on eastern Europe. So I'm what some might call a Kremlin-watcher. But I come at it from a moderate to liberal American policy perspective. I was all in on Medvedev in 08. He was a reformer and I was hopeful. 

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Keyser_Soze    5,550

We got a real live one here today

 

4 hours ago, mikee002 said:

More compulsive viewing for my Trump collection. Funny how Arnie was not allowed to run for President but Obama could, 

 

 

I'd recommend you stop engaging him in conversation after this.

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mikee002    31
17 minutes ago, Keyser_Soze said:

We got a real live one here today

 

 

 

I'd recommend you stop engaging him in conversation after this.

Oh it was a nod to all the Trump/ Russian conspiracy theory's flying around. get over yourself. 

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user19842x15    1,114
22 minutes ago, mikee002 said:

Oh it was a nod to all the Trump/ Russian conspiracy theory's flying around. get over yourself. 

 

It doesn't make sense to Americans. Because Obama's mother was American, it doesn't matter where he was born (although that is in America, in Hawaii), he is an American. Arnie isn't "born into being American" therefore can't run for president. John McCain wasn't born in the USA and he was the GOP nominee not too long ago, but his parents were American. Arnie may have neutralized, but it doesn't matter to the Constitution. 

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mikee002    31
1 hour ago, CayceG said:

 

Roger that. 

 

I assume you're from the UK, but maybe give me some background, if you could, on what your perspective is. 

 

For me, I've been interested in post-Cold War politics for a long time. I've studied it extensively since around 2006 (Ukraine's Orange Revolution) and have a focus on eastern Europe. So I'm what some might call a Kremlin-watcher. But I come at it from a moderate to liberal American policy perspective. I was all in on Medvedev in 08. He was a reformer and I was hopeful. 

 

I am from London and I actually spent a long time in the music biz but now work in mental health. They quite similar in so far as you have peeps that are totally tripped out and randomly flyin of the deep end. I realise my politics are out of step with this board but you guys. I do have an interest in History particularly war and medieval stuff so europe is great for that..

 

 gotta say you are using words like  "counter-invasion,  implicated, Involved, would have and than you mention wiki leaks as a negative". It seems like a lot of could haves and maybes. The damming part for me is this idea that Russia is now responsible for some Right Wing Ultra movement across Europe. The reason Europe is dangerous has nothing to do with right wing nationalists,   

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CayceG    2,493
Just now, mikee002 said:

 

I am from London and I actually spent a long time in the music biz but now work in mental health. They quite similar in so far as you have peeps that are totally tripped out and randomly flyin of the deep end. I realise my politics are out of step with this board but you guys. I do have an interest in History particularly war and medieval stuff so europe is great for that..

 

 gotta say you are using words like  "counter-invasion,  implicated, Involved, would have and than you mention wiki leaks as a negative". It seems like a lot of could haves and maybes. The damming part for me is this idea that Russia is now responsible for some Right Wing Ultra movement across Europe. You simply have no idea of how simply unsafe we are.

 

1. History is vital to understanding modern politics, especially geopolitics. 

 

2. No. I absolutely DO know how unsafe Europe is. And it's in part because of Russia's actions. 

 

3. I use counter-invasion in that example because that's what it was. Georgia launched an assault on South Ossetia (which was controlled by Russia). In retaliation, Russia launched an assault on the Georgian troops, but never stopped when they reached the Ossetian border. They drove into the city of Gori, which was not disputed. They also bombed an airfield in the Georgian capital. 

 

4. Russia WAS implicated in the 2006 Ukrainian presidential election because the dioxin used to poison the candidate that eventually won--Viktor Yushchenko--was produced in a laboratory and suspects in the poisoning had ties to Russia. As in, citizenship and were granted immunity from extradition in the case. 

 

5. Russia is undeniably involved in the war in Ukraine's Donbas region. This is indisputable. The evidence is far more on the side that Russian troops, equipment, etc are in eastern Ukraine than it is to the contrary.

 

6. Wikileaks is a negative. It obtains and releases documents that are not just exposes in the pursuit of transparency. It does so on one side of the coin. It hits the West--the US, the UK, etc. It doesn't release shit in regards to Russia. Wikileaks is a conduit through which Russia's propaganda efforts gets its source material and "legitimacy."

 

 

None of these are maybes or could haves. We can argue about Montenegro being disallowed entry in NATO or Ukraine never making it into the EU based on the association agreement, but this conversation isn't about that. 

 

Russia's involvement in right wing groups in nations from Ukraine to Hungary to Germany to France and even in the UK is merely one more head to this hydra.

 

 

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mikee002    31
2 minutes ago, user19842x15 said:

Also, Fuck Putin. :flag::flag::flag::flag::flag::flag::flag::flag::flag::flag::flag::flag::flag::flag::flag::flag::flag::flag::flag::flag::flag::flag::flag::flag::flag::flag::flag::flag::flag::flag::flag::flag::flag::flag::flag::flag:

 

What colour is this RED

What colour is this WHITE

What colour is this Blue

 

All I can see is Trump Trump Trump...

 

 

 

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osxmatt    387

Hmm the CEO of the most profitable company in human history, who also has ties to Russia, who will also be in charge of Russia and Middle East relationships, which just happen to have a butt ton of oil.

 

What's the issue here?

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mikee002    31
1 hour ago, mclumber1 said:

 

TBF, Crimea is ethnically and linguistically Russian, no?  And wasn't Crimea actually Russian territory just 60ish years ago. 

 

Lady Death on behalf of the Russians defending the Crimea against a Brutal European Ideology, Beautiful foreign language movie...

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CitizenVectron    2,944
2 hours ago, mclumber1 said:

 

TBF, Crimea is ethnically and linguistically Russian, no?  And wasn't Crimea actually Russian territory just 60ish years ago. 

 

To counter, you don't see Mexico invading Arizona, or France invading Quebec.

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mikee002    31
5 hours ago, CayceG said:

6. Wikileaks is a negative. It obtains and releases documents that are not just exposes in the pursuit of transparency. It does so on one side of the coin. It hits the West--the US, the UK, etc. It doesn't release shit in regards to Russia. Wikileaks is a conduit through which Russia's propaganda efforts gets its source material and "legitimacy."

 

You have to take a step back and look at what you are saying here. You are not saying wiki leaks is dishonest but it does not count because it does not say anything nasty about Russia, The consensus of this tread is that Trump along with Russia is the new anti-christ responsible for shooting airliners out of the sky and spreading the 4th Reich across Europe. What could wiki possibly say to add to that 

Quote

 

Russia's involvement in right wing groups in nations from Ukraine to Hungary to Germany to France and even in the UK is merely one more head to this hydra.

 

 This is bizarre, I live in a multi cultural society as I expect you do. The Uk has always accepted and absorbed into our culture ten of thousands of immigrants a year and has benefited for the most part as a result.  That has changed and the European Poplar rejection of that change has nothing to do with Russia or Right Wing Nationalism. It is simply a case of numbers and the wish to walk down the street without being accosted, "To talk out loud about our thoughts and fears" 

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CayceG    2,493
2 hours ago, mclumber1 said:

 

TBF, Crimea is ethnically and linguistically Russian, no?  And wasn't Crimea actually Russian territory just 60ish years ago. 

 

They are linguistically Russian. But so is Brighton Beach. 

 

Crimea was Russian starting with the expansionist policies of Catherine the Great. It changed hands a few times in the 20s during their civil war, but eventually became a part of the Russian SFSR. BUUUUUT in 1954 Khrushchev transferred it to the Ukrainian SSR, which is where it remained until Ukraine became independent. Then Russian wanted to play take-backsies. 

 

Culturally, it never really was Ukrainian. It was Turkic/Ottoman and Russian. So 1954 to 2014 was pretty much an outlier in the history. It was nice while it lasted. 

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CayceG    2,493
24 minutes ago, mikee002 said:

 

You have to take a step back and look at what you are saying here. You are not saying wiki leaks is dishonest but it does not count because it does not say anything nasty about Russia, The consensus of this tread is that Trump along with Russia is the new anti-christ responsible for shooting airliners out of the sky and spreading the 4th Reich across Europe. What could wiki possibly say to add to that 

 

I'm not saying Wikileaks doesn't count. I'm saying they're being used by the Russian government as a propaganda outlet. If they lived up to their mantra of being a beacon of free reporting and government transparency, they'd get shit from Russia's inner workings and publish it. They haven't. Ukrainian hackers have been able to, though.

 

Russia isn't the anti-christ, but they are actively attempting to (and succeeding in) influencing people and governments. Wikileaks is just a part of that. 

 

Quote

 This is bizarre, I live in a multi cultural society as I expect you do. The Uk has always accepted and absorbed into our culture ten of thousands of immigrants a year and has benefited for the most part as a result.  That has changed and the European Poplar rejection of that change has nothing to do with Russia or Right Wing Nationalism. It is simply a case of numbers and the wish to walk down the street without being accosted, "To talk out loud about our thoughts and fears" 

 

I think that's part of it, but Russia can't be discounted from having some involvement in the overall change in public opinion. They've supported far right political groups all across Europe:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/russia/12103602/America-to-investigate-Russian-meddling-in-EU.html

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/10/04/how-vladimir-putin-feeds-europe-s-rabid-right.html

 

Everything that happened happened because the ingredients were already there. Russia just turned up the heat on the stove. 

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